Aegon VII Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 Table of Contents · Intro · How Rhaegar came to believe he was TPTWP · Evolution of Rhaegar’s beliefs · Rhaegar tries to fulfill prophecy at TOHH · What would Rhaegar do if he knew the Others were coming? · Aftermath of Robert’s Rebellion · What’s Mance up to now? · The Pink Letter · What happens next in the North? · Dany and Essos · Dany returns to Westeros · End Game Intro I thought I would put together a more holistic theory of what’s going on in ASOIAF. This theory encompasses many other theories and I am not trying to take credit for any of them. When touching on a popular theory, I tried to find a version of it and link it for ease of reference. Please realize, most of these theories have come up many times over the years and I’m not going to sit here for hours trying to find the best one of each. If you feel there’s a better version of a theory than the one I’ve linked to, please link it and I’ll be happy to add it (If I agree). Quotes will be in italics, bolded words are my emphasis. How Rhaegar came to believe he was TPTWP As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father’s knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him.No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require a sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior. We know from a young age Rhaegar believed he must be a warrior. The text suggests he read something that made him believe this, but I think we should remain open minded. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought. . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! We see that Rhaegar believed he was the prince that was promised when he was young. To me it seems very unlikely that Rhaegar deciding he must be a warrior and Rhaegar starting to believe he was TPTWP were unrelated. Instead, I think it far more likely that he believed he must be a warrior BECAUSE he thought he was TPTWP. Because he was bookish, it makes sense that people would assume he found something in his scrolls that made him believe this. I find it much more likely that the scrolls provided a lot of info about the prophecy, but that there was something more that led Rhaegar to believe he was TPTWP. We have an example in the series of a young boy who is led to believe that he is a hero in Bran. We see that Bloodraven used visions/dreams to communicate with Bran and guide him north to be the Three Eyed Crow, the role BR believes Bran is destined to play. There’s also evidence to suggest that BR has done this with others in the story as well, specifically Sweet Robin and Euron. So I think one possible theory we have is BR giving Rhaegar dreams directly. However, there may be a 3rd option supported by the text. “Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go therefrom time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song.When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.” We know Rhaegar would go to Summerhall alone with his harp, and would compose songs while there. The comment that he was singing of himself and those he loves takes on deeper meaning if he really was learning about the tragedy that would befall him and those he loved during these trips, and then singing about it. We also know that there is currently the Ghost of High Heart at Summerhall and that she is willing to exchange visions for harp songs. "I'll have my payment now. I'll have the songyou promised me." And so Lem woke Tom Sevenstrings beneath his furs, and brought him yawning to the fireside with hiswoodharpin hand. "The same song as before?" he asked. "Oh, aye. My Jenny's song. Is there another?" And so he sang, and the dwarf woman closed her eyes and rocked slowly back and forth, murmuring the words and crying. There is evidence suggesting the GOHH is the Woods Witch that supposedly died at the tragedy of Summerhall, and since she is still there and seemingly depressed after the tragedy, we have no reason to believe she ever left, and would have been there when Rhaegar visited. This all points to Rhaegar composing songs and exchanging them for visions with the GOHH. Cantuse has an excellent theory that goes over this entire Jenny’s song theory in great detail, so I would definitely recommend checking it out if you want more info. https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/08/25/composer-of-prophecy-rhaegars-song-of-love-and-doom/" So from the previous quotes we see that Rhaegar believed he was TPTWP and we know he was very interested in the prophecy and would discuss it with Aemon. I’ve posited that he decided to be a warrior because he felt it was necessary to fulfill the prophecy as he understood it, wish shows that he’s willing to let the prophecy determine his actions in life. Evolution of Rhaegar’s beliefs The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?" "Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked. "He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more,"he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." Dany’s vision suggests that Rhaegar was still trying to fulfill prophecy as an adult, believing his son Aegon was TPTWP and that there must be one more. If Rhaegar was getting visions from the GOHH (or BR), he may already believe that there is a threat to the north coming i.e. the others. I believe Bloodraven went to the wall and then north on purpose, and what best explains this is him knowing about the others coming and starting to take steps to protect the realm. If BR knew about it, it makes sense that Rhaegar would learn as well, either through GOHH, or through BR directly like Bran does. The fact that Rhaegar says Aegon’s song is a song of ice and fire supports this, because Targ + Martell blood has nothing to do with ice, only fire, so if he thinks Aegon’s song is a song of Ice and Fire, the ice has to come from somewhere, the fight against the others. We know from Dany’s vision that Rhaegar believes TPTWP has a song, ASOIAF, and that there must be one more head of the dragon after the birth of Aegon. Assuming R+L=J, we know Rhaegar’s next child, Jon, is set up to be heavily involved in the prophecy and that Jon really does embody ASOIAF, with the Ice being his stark blood and the Fire being his Targ blood. It stands to reason, that this was intentional, and at least a portion of Rhaegar’s motivation in getting with Lyanna is because he believed this would fulfill the “song of ice and fire” dynamic that he believed was part of TPTWP prophecy. So Rhaegar goes from first believing he is TPTWP, then he believes Aegon is and knows that the prophecy will involve an ice element. Him knowing there’s an ice element supports him knowing of the threat of the Others. Rhaegar then proceeds to woo Lyanna and have Jon, who embodies Ice and Fire through his Stark and Targ heritage, setting Jon up to be TPTWP. Rhaegar tries to fulfill prophecy at TOHH Many theorize that there was more to the TOHH than just a simple tourney. That perhaps Oswell convinced Lord Whent on behalf of Rhaegar in order for Rhaegar to conspire against Aerys. Others suggest that Tywin was behind it with Rhaegar. This theory suggests Rhaegar is behind the Tourney, but I remain unclear whether it was to conspire against Aerys or to woo Lyanna. I think it’s entirely possible the original plan was to conspire against Aerys but then Aerys showed up and when Lyanna presented herself as Knight of the Laughing Tree, using a weirwood as her symbol, Rhaegar pivoted and became convinced that she would be the one to help him fulfill prophecy. So while I am not sure whether Rhaegar planned to woo Lyanna before or after she was KOTL, I submit that Rhaegar intentionally used the TOHH to woo Lyanna. I also believe the text supports Rhaegar cheating in order to facilitate this. Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleamingblack plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him.Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. The description of his armor as “gleaming”, the inclusion of rubies, and the phrase, “it seemed no lance could touch him” suggest Rhaegar used a glamour or glamour-like charm in order to win the Tourney. We have an example of a Targ using a glamour at a tourney in the form of BR as Maynard Plumm in the Mystery Knight. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost. Also note that this is a parallel to the kings tourney, and Loras giving Sansa a red rose. We know Loras cheated there using a mare in heat, which supports Rhaegar cheating at the TOHH. So I submit that Rhaegar used the TOHH to woo Lyanna to fulfill TPTWP prophecy, going as far as to cheat via glamour in order to win. This is of course is not a new theory, you can find multiple versions of it if you are interested in finding more details. What would Rhaegar do if he knew the Others were coming? If Rhaegar knows that the others are coming, he would realize that everyone north of the wall would be killed and he possibly/probably knows that they would be reanimated in wights. I say possibly/probably because we can’t know exactly how much info he got from scrolls/GOHH/BR. If he knows that the wildlings would become part of the army of the undead, we would expect Rhaegar to take steps to get them south of the wall before the Others attacked. However, we see that the wildlings were not a united people and it would be extremely difficult to convince all of them to get south of the wall. It took Mance years. Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o’ Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name. We see from this quote what a difficult task it was for Mance to do this, and we see from the following quote that Rhaegar’s title and position in Westeros would not help him in this task i.e. uniting the wildlings. You don't become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won't follow a name,and they don't care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they'd sooner fight than follow." So we have it from the leader of the free folk that they would not care about a name and therefore Rhaegar winning Robert’s Rebellion, and even deposing his father and becoming king would not help him get the wildlings south of the wall. “Do you think your brother’s war is more important than ours?” the old man barked. Jon chewed his lip. The raven flapped its wings at him. “War, war, war, war,” it sang. “It’s not,” Mormont told him. “Gods save us, boy, you’re not blind and you’re not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?” According to this quote from Mormont it doesn’t matter who sits the iron throne when the others come. If Rhaegar came to a similar conclusion he may have prioritized getting the wildlings south of the wall over ruling the seven kingdoms. Now, time for the most hated theory on the internet… Mance is Rhaegar. I see there being two possible courses of events that led to this. Option 1) Rhaegar was never at the trident and someone else died in his place using a glamour. My best guess at who could have taken his place is Jon Darry. Option 2) Rhaegar fought in the Trident, lost and was healed/resurrected after the battle. I will not suggest one option over the other as I don’t believe we have enough info at this time to know the exact details. One day I will put together a detailed “Mance is Rhaegar” theory, as right now none of the existing write-ups really capture everything. I urge you to do your own research on the theory. Aftermath of Robert’s Rebellion After the sack of King’s Landing, things were not looking good for the Targs. At the TOJ there is a battle, but it is stopped early (most likely by Howland). Ned promises a dying Lyanna that he will keep Jon secret and safe. Oswell Whent goes into hiding, later to become Oswell Kettleblack. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4575lu/spoilers_extended_oswell/ Arthur Dayne goes to the wall as Qhorin to continue serving the realm. https://maesterpikkdogs.wordpress.com/2016/01/09/well-thats-weird-qhorin-halfhand/ Rhaegar goes to the wall as Mance to continue his quest to save the realm. This is the second Targ we’ve seen do this, as BR also chose to go to the NW, to then desert and go north of the wall. "Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe.” For both Rhaegar and BR (and later Jon), they choose to sacrifice their honor for the sake of the realm. Outside the TOJ: Richard Lonmounth becomes Lem Lemoncloak. https://ladygwynhyfvar.wordpress.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/ Leyton and Malora Hightower become Haldon Halfmaester and the Septa Lemore. They continue their servivce to House Targ by helping Aegon. http://boiledleather.com/post/70240087542/septa-lemore-is-malora-hightower Ashara fakes her death and travels east to learn more as a shadowbinder. We see her now as Quaithe, helping Dany. Possibly first mothering Jojen and Meera with Howland. So all these Targ loyalists go into hiding after the rebellion. Let’s pick up now with Mance’s current situation. What’s Mance up to now? The wildling turned to Melisandre. "I will need horses. Half a dozen good ones. And this is nothing I can do alone. Some of the spearwives penned up at Mole's Town should serve. Women would be best for this. The girl's more like to trust them, and they will help me carry off a certain ploy I have in mind." Mance(Rhaegar) is accustom to glamours and is not truly under Melisandre’s control at Castle Black. Which is why he states he has a certain ploy in mind and why he lies about the washerwomen he will get. “Young ones, and pretty,” Mance had said. The unburnt king supplied some names, and Dolorous Edd had done the rest, smuggling them from Mole’s Town. Here Mance says he will get pretty girls but of the washerwomen, only Holly is described as attractive. Rowan is actually an Umber, the one stolen by wildlings that Stannis speaks about. Crow-food, they call him. A crow once took him for dead and pecked out his eye. He caught the bird in his fist and bit its head off. When Mors was young he was a fearsome fighter. His sons died on the Trident, his wife in childbed. His only daughter was carried off by wildlings thirty years ago." This is supported by her being described as leathery, that she respects the Starks words and that she refers to Stannis as King. She was one of the singer’s washerwomen, the tall skinny one, too lean and leatheryto be called pretty … …. Rowan gave him a hard look. “You have no right to mouth Lord Eddard’swords.Not you. Not ever. After what you did. …. “The snow will hide us. Are you deaf? Bolton is sending forth his swords. We have to reach King Stannisbefore they do.” So Mance has now gained an alliance with the Umbers, who are actually working together, which is why the young boys and Green beards are split up in a coordinated way. The Umbers are also working with the Manderlys, Stouts and Lady Dustin. More snowmen had risen in the yard by the time Theon Greyjoy made his way back. To command the snowy sentinels on the walls, the squires had erected a dozen snowy lords. One was plainly meant to be Lord Manderly; it was the fattest snowman that Theon had ever seen. The one-armed lord could only be Harwood Stout, the snow lady Barbrey Dustin. And the one closest to the door with the beard made of icicles had to be old Whoresbane Umber. Mors has been communicating with Mance and Crowsfood via the horns and hooded man (who I would guess to be Rowan or Mors). That is how Mors is able to pick up Theon and (f)Arya, and recognizes Theon immediately in the blizzard. Mors was expecting Theon and (f)Arya because he is in on the plan. Stannis snorted. "You fell. Umber saved her. If Mors Crowfood and his men had not been outside the castle, Bolton would have had the both of you back in moments." Crowfood. Theon remembered. An old man, huge and powerful, with a ruddy face and a shaggy white beard. He had been seated on a garron, clad in the pelt of a gigantic snow bear, its head his hood. Under it he wore a stained white leather eye patch that reminded Theon of his uncle Euron. He'd wanted to rip it off Umber's face, to make certain that underneath was only an empty socket, not a black eye shining with malice. Instead he had whimpered through his broken teeth and said, "I am — "" — a turncloak and a kinslayer," Crowfood had finished. "You will hold that lying tongue, or lose it." So, Mance has been conspiring with a lot of the North. At the moment, this conspiracy is still friendly with Stannis, shown by Theon being given to Stannis in Theon 1 TWOW. However, at this point we have no reason to believe Stannis knows of the umber-mance conspiracy. And we have evidence that Mance continues to plot. This leads us to the pink letter. The Pink Letter Mance wrote the pink letter to get Jon and an army of wildings to come south. You can find my full theory on mance writing the Pink Letter at: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/144757-an-argument-supporting-mance-wrote-the-pink-letter/ In his current position, Mance has almost no power. He is stuck in a castle surrounded by enemies and a few loose allies. He has an army, but it’s at castle black. For him to get back into power, he will need a way to get back with his army of wildings. Mance sees in the Castle Black training ground how visceral of a reaction Jon had to hearing Arya was being married to Ramsay, and uses this to manipulate him into coming to WF via the pink letter. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son's wedding to ..." His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King's Landing, with Father. "Lord Snow?" Clydas peered at him closely with his dim pink eyes. "Are you ... unwell? You seem ..." "He's to marry Arya Stark. My little sister." So I am suggesting that Mance is using the Pink Letter to get Jon to Winterfell with a Wildling army. Mance would have had plenty of time to plan this with Val in Castle Black before leaving. What happens nextin the North? Lets say the Pink Letter succeeds and Jon comes south with the wildings. That leaves two leaders and only one army. I believe this will work out peacefully, with Mance and Jon wanting the same things. There’s a very good chance Mance is scheming to make Jon King, and does not want the position of power for himself. So we have a bit of a hiccup, because Jon then gets stabbed and most likely dies. I could see this going a couple ways, but I think warging to ghost and then back is a prettly likely scenario. Any sort of healing/resurrection works though, Jon will be back and will head to WF with the wildings. What will he find at WF? I believe the night’s lamp theory is the best we have to go on. https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-night-lamp-revisited-the-wrath-of-the-old-and-the-new/ Some things suggest Shireen will be burned alive, so this may coincide with the burning of the weirwood in the night’s lamp theory. After the battle Stannis will be victorious, but not really on stable footing. He’s not a northman, everyone’s looking for a Stark and half of one is on his way from CB. The north has no reason to follow Stannis and burning a weirwood seems pretty sacrilegious to the northern gods, (more so if there’s a burning little girl tied to it). So what will happen to Stannis? I think there are so many parallels to the Night’s King story, that he most likely will turn into a Night’s king 2.0. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/66380-twow-spoiler-nights-king-a-turn-from-fire-to-ice-the-story-of-stannis-baratheon/ This leaves Jon, Mance, and a number of armies at WF. The north is loyal to Stark, and Mance recognizes Jon as a good leader (and his son) so Jon will become King in the North at this time, with pretty much all the north and wildlings behind him. Dany and Essos Let’s shift gears now to Essos. I’ll start by saying Dragons represent nuclear weapons (or more broadly, any power too great to be handled by man). Dany would be absolutely nothing without her Dragons. But because she has them, she is pretty much a god. Her travels through Essos are a commentary on imperialism. We can see the damage that’s done when a country with advanced military technology decides they should intervene in less developed countries, and how even when it’s for the best intentions (ending slavery), it’s complicated and people get hurt. Dany may or may not turn out to be a bad guy. She’s currently being torn between her desire to bring peace to her people through diplomacy, and the Targaryen passion that wants her to resolve it via violence. I think the attack at the fighting pits it’s going to tip the scale for a while, so we can expect to see Dany as violent and wild for a bit. She is with Drogon in the Dothraki sea being approached by a Khalasar when we last see her. Dany’s about to unite the Dothraki with ease and head back west with an almighty Khalasar. I should mention a lot from here doesn’t have text to support it, it’s just my theory. (more so than before this point) Dany will deal with her enemies easily and mercilessly in Essos before finally coming back to Westeros. Dany returns to Westeros When she returns she’ll find that Aegon has been pretty successful in his conquest. Aegon will have fought hard against the Lannisters in a fairly even sided match up. Dany will then come in and conquer everything with ease. Hopefully Aegon bends the knee to Dany (maybe proposing and waiting for an answer). Maybe he doesn’t and Dany burns him alive. Cersei won’t surrender; instead she’ll live up to be the “mad queen” and use wildfire to burn down a lot of Kings landing. End Game Jon and Dany will be the two leaders left controlling armies in the end. Jon’s first priority will be the fight against the others. He and Dany will fall in love. They will defeat the others and suffer extreme losses. Viserion will be converted to an ice dragon and eventually both he and Rhaegal will die in battle. The others will be defeated and they will determine that they need to sacrifice Drogon, as dragons are too powerful to exist alongside men and to restore balance in the world. Bran will warg Drogon and hold still while Jon chops the Dragon’s head off, killing both Drogon and Bran. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/143797-beheading-bran/ Rhaegar is Azor Ahai who both created and later wields Lightbringer (Jon). Jon is Aegon VII, Lightbringer and TPTWP. Thank you for reading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustardseed Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 Makes sense to me, and hoping you're right. Looking forward to even more connections, plot lines, and other characters that can be tied into this Theory of Everything. I do think a lot of the story is based on what the author is trying to say about political, sociological, relationship, and psychological principles & concepts in our own world. And the upcoming twists and revelations are based on his mastery of taking a very complex overall plan, and breaking it down into simple tales that end up weaving together and expanding over time, but end in surprisingly elegant results. Where many readers say "I should have known that all along - there were so many clues that are so obvious now that I know the whole picture." I've lurked occasionally on this forum for many years, but created an account just so I could reply to this post to say thanks. These are many of the same things I have come to believe after several re-reads, and after listening to tons of youtube vids. (Speaking of which, many thanks to Preston Jacobs, Radio Westeros, Order of the Green Hand, Secrets of the Citadel, and of course Elio & Linda, who have helped me dig deeper and enjoy the book series more than I would have otherwise. ) What do you think of the theory (I didn't invent this, just saw it online) that, since Bran can time travel or at least influence people in the past and view events in the future, the old legends were actually stories planted in the past by Bran, so that society would have a shared consciousness for generations about things to come. Subconsciously affecting them and foreshadowing what people should be prepared for, and people like Rhaegar who were willing to take the stories seriously could realize how they fit in and what they could do. That would mean the Age Of Heroes is only just unfolding now. E.g. Bran The [insert title] is actually the Bran we know, The Long Night is the war coming with The Others, Lann The Clever didn't exist but is a preview of what Tyrion will become, The Night King hasn't existed yet but will be what Stannis becomes, etc. Maybe The Pact On The Isle Of Faces will turn out to have something to do with Rhaegar/Mance's secret marriage there, and/or Howland Reed's unusual trip to there. "Many noble houses trace their family histories to the Age of Heroes, and many stories, songs, and legends are told about it. It is an era that is shrouded in mystery... These histories were not recorded in books but passed down from generation to generation through story and song. While some of them may be dismissed as fairytales, every one of the Seven Kingdoms is defined by them." https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Age_of_Heroes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmhwk Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 On 3/27/2019 at 4:52 AM, Aegon VII said: The description of his armor as “gleaming”, the inclusion of rubies, and the phrase, “it seemed no lance could touch him” suggest Rhaegar used a glamour or glamour-like charm in order to win the Tourney Because he was the crown prince... No one risked hurting him. Not as glamorous an explanation as yours but more plausible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aebram Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 I admire your ambition in trying to create a grand Theory of Everything. But I have trouble with the idea that Mance is actually Rhaegar. Rhaegar has the classic Targaryen eyes and hair, while Mance has neither. Was he able to hide his true appearance with a glamour, for all those years, without a slip? And when Melisandre used a glamour to make him look like Rattleshirt, was he wearing two glamours at once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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