Similarities to GRRM's ASOIAF and Tad Williams' Dragonbone Chair - 1

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

Hi, Selam,

I wanted to talk about Tad Williams' series and its impact on the ASOIAF. While doing this, we will try to get an idea about the "possible" course of ASOIAF. Undoubtedly, Martin was inspired by many other things with this series, but the Memory series is the book that inspired the foundation of ASOIAF. Who knows, there are many common parts. Unfortunately, there is no Turkish translation in Turkey, so I will use the information given by the readers who have read it before and noticed the similarities, and the information I got from the wikipedias of the book series. Those who have not read the book can also find information by searching the internet(even in here). I first heard about this series from ASOIAF Youtuber GreyArea's channel, and I was quite surprised to see the similarities. By the way, I read that this series also inspired the Kingkiller Chronicles series.

Unfortunately I have to split the thread into 2. The first part will be an overview of Memory and in part 2 we will talk about the similarities and connections with the ASOIAF.

Let's begin!

 

Quote

 

Tad’s fantasy series, The Dragonbone Chair and the rest of his famous four-book trilogy was one of the things that inspired me to write my own seven-book trilogy. I read Tad and was impressed by him, but the imitators that followed -- well, fantasy got a bad rep for being very formulaic and ritual. And I read The Dragonbone Chair and said, "My god, they can do something with this form," and it’s Tad doing it. It’s one of my favorite fantasy series.

...

....Definitely. I was a huge fan of Tad's MEMORY, SORROW, AND THORN -- in fact, I doubt I would ever have written my own series without the inspiration his provided.

There are a number of other "nods" to my favorite fantasy authors buried in the books as well.

...

I am a huge fan of Tad Williams. Although I loved Tolkien for many years, I had pretty much stopped reading modern fantasy, since so much of it was awful derivative stuff. Then I tried Tad's DRAGONBONE CHAIR, and sat up and said to myself, "Yes! This genre can be terrific, in the hands of a good writer."

I would likely never have written A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE without that inspiration.

So, yes, "Josua and Elyas" are definitely a tip o' the hat to one of my favorite fantasy writers. And here's a hint... there are numerous similar homages to other favorites buried in the text, if you can find 'em.

 

So, it's clear I assume? Good*. If you're going to read this series of Tad, spoiler is coming... you've been warned.*

 

UNIVERSE

Of course, first of all, we need to briefly talk about Tad's universe. As in every epic fantasy, this series has magic special swords, prophecies, legends, spells and different kinds of living communities with people. It is also inspired by Tolkien's universe, like many fantasy. Let's try to get to know the universe quickly and determine whether it has a counterpart in ASOIAF.

The name of the continent where the story takes place is a place called Osted Ard; Mixed cultures continue to exist here, cultures that may correspond to Celtic, Scandinavian and others in our universe... What happened here gave me a bit of a history similar to the stories in Irish myths, but of course it would not be healthy to speak clearly without reading the series. There is a city called Asu'a; The largest and first city of the Sithi (that is, belonging to the race to which the villain belongs). During the invasions, this city is captured and falls, and Sithi goes into exile, hiding in the forests.

It was inspired by the widespread belief in the universe, the Catholic faith. If you know how to do it in this universe, you can communicate with dreams and show something to someone through a method called Dream Road.

Before humans there were Sithi, Norns, Niski and dwarves. There are also some types of trolls, but we will focus on others.

SITHI

The name means "the peaceful ones", but these people gave themselves the name Zida, which originally means "Children of the Dawn". They came to this continent (along with many races) from a special land called "Garden" a long time ago. Those who come from here are also called "Gardenborn", garden-born ones... We're talking about a place that probably coincides with the Undying Lands (tolkien thing). Other people use the name Sithi. These people used to live in big and beautiful cities, they are creatures that are known as immortal but can be killed. Kind of like Tolkien's elves. When the people came to these lands, the king of the Sithi gave them land and allowed them to live, but the people soon grew and became stronger. As always this greedy king of mortal men begins to invade Sithi lands; Although the Sithi allied with their neighbor Hernystiri, they were routed and suffered heavy losses. Here comes the youngest son of the king, named Ineluki, and with the desire to protect his people, he starts making a magic sword using black arts, the name of this sword is; “Sorrow”, which also gives the series its name. The name of the series Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is the name of these three magic swords. But even this sword could not get ahead of the Sithi's fall and his people were massacred, only a small group of them escaped and hid. The Sithi people had golden skin and eyes; Although their hair is white, they have a custom of dyeing it different colors. They also have a sensitivity to iron but over time they got over it(i guess).

Norns

 

The Norns are the Sithi's siblings in the north, they have never been in close contact with humans, and several past events have caused them to develop unpleasant feelings towards them. They call themselves Hikeda, which means "Children of the Clouds". While they were one tribe with the Sithi, with the death of their Queen Utuku's son and husband, they became hostile to people and Sithi( because they loved human, and this reason they saw them as traitors). They used to live in a crystalline city, but they no longer live in the light. The Norn's skin was pale like a corpse and their eyes were deep purple, and they basically looked like Sithi, unlike them, they didn't dye their hair white. Their homeland is in the high snow of a mountain and they are thought to be like angels until they see their eyes. So yes, they live in a cold, snowy area. Like the Sithi, they have a sensitivity to iron. By precision, they are killed with iron.

I've read that Norn and Sithi aren't essentially immortal, they just age very slowly, but unless people and stuff live long enough to realize that, I guess they think they're immortal. I guess the reason Norn queens wear masks may be to hide their old age.

Niskis

The Niski are a peaceful people who used to live by the sea and work on ships as servants of the Sithi and the Norn. They call themselves Tinukeda, which means "Children of the Ocean". As you have noticed, everyone here is a “child of something”. These peaceful people, unlike the masters they serve, do not live forever, but they live much longer than humans and are not sensitive to iron. They are short, with golden skin like Sithi, white hair and black eyes. They decreased in number over time.

Dwarves

We come to the dwarves. They are part of the Children of the Ocean, like a sub-branch of the Niskis. They were once enslaved by the Sithi and the Norn, but now they live left and right, but they seem to be very few in number. They have the Niski-like types, black eyes, skinny and white hair. And these last remaining dwarves were taller, I guess, it wrote on its site.

Human Kingdoms: Of course, there are at least three or four human kingdoms. As I understand it, there is a king with the title of High King to which whom they are vassals. Whic this is King Elias.

Our General Story is as follows: There is an ordinary-born boy named Simon who lives in the king's palace, there is a princess who travels disguised as a man... Simon, an orphan who lives in the castle, ostensibly helping the kitchens, but mostly shirking for mild mischief or laziness. discovers that the king's brother, Josua, is being held captive in the dungeon. The rescue goes well, but the discovery of the rescue doesn't go well and Simon is forced to flee into the wilderness on. During his adventure, he meets the princess disguised as a man and many other communities and follows an ancient prophecy. War is triggered in the Realm and the two brothers clash. Meanwhile, a great threat is approaching, and for this, his servant will do his best to prepare the environment.

There is a prophecy surrounding the three swords, Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, from which the series is named: The Three Swords must come together again. They think that in this way the evil legendary Storm King will be destroyed. We have a group of scholars who call the Parchment League and try to figure out what the riddle means throughout the story. All three of these weapons were forged with materials from outside Osten Ard. Sorrow was beaten by Sithi Ineluki; Thorn was created from a meteorite, black as night because he is extraterrestrial, and is the most feared and feared sword. Memory was also forged from the hulls of ships going to this new country. Simon is trying to find these swords and put them together. I think Thorn is also used in the Storm King's return ritual. But the prophecy is literally a "false messenger"... The combination of these swords will in essence serve the Storm King's purpose, not destroy him. He had already forged one of them himself, the sword of Sorrow... It can be said that the story begins with the death of King John, and after his death, conflicts arise.

Conqueror's Star.

There is also a star and trilogy cycle known as the Conqueror's Star. When this star begins to appear, it appears for three years in a row and has a habit of appearing every 500 years. Their kingdom has been rendered as a kind of "herald of disaster" heralding the rise or fall. Land lost in previous wars, the death of important people also appeared. It appears at the end during the spell cast to bring about the death of King John and the return of the Storm King. Also, as you know, there are three swords that give the series its name. The story begins and ends in Hayholt, Simon's home. This is also the capital of the King.

The end of the series was bittersweet. One of our good men, named Count Eloiar, sees the death of many of his relatives and friends, and he reluctantly begins to rule the ruins of Hernystir, one of the human kingdoms. Yep, it looks like the realm has taken some serious damage at the end of the series.

CHARACTERS

As you know, the protagonists of the ASOIAF series are GRRM's big five, Jon, Arya, Bran, Tyrion and Daenerys. However, we have main and secondary characters such as Jaime, Stannis, Sandor. It seems that some of these characters' debut inspiration came from Tad's series.

Let's start with our "bad guy" first.

Ineluki: Nicknamed the "Storm King", he is the youngest surviving son of the Sithi king during the Human invasion. He was seen as the brightest flame of the Sithi who could lead his people to the golden age if it were not for these invasions. While its people are suffering from exile and invasion; Hoping to save them with greed and power, Ineluki also turned to the dark arts, despite being warned, and secretly forged a magic sword, which he called Sorrow, that swallowed light and hope. He has killed a dragon with his brother before, even he is strong enough to stand up to the armies alone. When he made the sword and brought it, his father was enraged and told him to destroy it, describing it as "abominable". Ineluki was already slightly mentally unstable, so he got mad and killed his father and took the horned crown. When he tried to destroy incoming enemies with great magic, he dragged himself and his servants into an exile-like extinction of 500 years; They got stuck in the realm beyond death and lost their bodies. This part is already a bit like Sauron. So overall, the story of Ineluki is the story of a wise and noble prince who tries to save his people from darkness, but beset by tragedy after tragedy, darkening his heart until all he can think of is hatred and revenge.

Utuk'ku: Norn queen, oldest of her kind, the only one who remembers their old home and the only remnant of the Garden-Born, is highly respected by her people. She always wears a mask on her face, she is wise, the limit of her power is unknown. Right-hand man, supporter of the Storm King; the one who brought many of his plans to life. She wants all mortals to die because of what happened to her son, and then she wants to die herself. As I said before, she lives on a snowy, cold mountain.

Pryrates: A priest, always wears a red robe with black trim. For this reason, he was called the "Red Priest" or "Red Sorcerer". He communicates with the Storm King for reasons such as greed and enters his service, but in essence, he plans to betray him from the very beginning, but it does not end well for him, of course. He keeps shaving his head and eyebrows. It is thought to be King Elias' man, but in essence, Elias is his pawn. He prepares the King's body for the Storm King, allowing him to enter. So our villain gets a body. He has the ability to shapeshift with magic. His main motivation is “knowledge”... He wants to learn and know everything that can be known, whether forbidden or not. It knows no bounds to achieve it. Of course, the information we are talking about here is "magic". I'm not sure, but I think it's the Storm King who destroyed him after the attempted treason. He's also quite a psychopath, as I understand it, because he has a side that enjoys torturing people and stuff. He's got a torture tower.

The ones we've counted so far are our triple main villains. The first two have some sympathy, but the Red Priest has none. And we have a tiny villain who serves the Norns.

Ingen Jegger: Master of the Hounds of the Norns. That's the hunter. He's a human being in essence, so it's interesting that he's at the service of the Norns, especially when their queen wants to destroy his entire species. When the Queen is chosen by Utuk'ku, he is given a black hound's helmet and wears it. He is loyal to his queen to the death and always returns to her. The first stage kept chasing Simon. He kills Ineluku's mother and then dies at Simon's hand.

High King Preston John: A renowned king and warrior, known in the realm as the slayer of a great dragon, he dies of old age, and then his sons fight for the throne. At the end of the story, it turns out that the old king killed this dragon, it was the previous king Ealhstan Fiskerne who killed him, John lies as if he did this and establishes his dynasty, of course, the old king died. Simon is actually the true heir descended from that king. John was someone who mistreated Sithi and the underlying reason was that he suspected they knew this secret, I guess they did. This hostility also caused Sithi to wait until the last moment in the war for help, the Sithi are not bad, only Ineluku is bad by the way. Norns get into more chaotic evil. Sithi and Norn like Yin-yang.

Ealhstan Fiskerne: The last of Hayholt's Six Kings. Founder of the Parchment League. He killed Shurakai, the red dragon, and died in the process. He is the ancestor of Simon, which makes him the legitimate heir to the throne. Preston John ascends the throne after his death, claiming to have killed the dragon. They make a throne out of dragon's bones.

Seamon or in other words Simon Snowlock: The protagonist of the series is one of the examples of the traditional secret prince story. His mother dies during childbirth and entrusts a ring that indicates his identity to the person he trusts, the boy is brought up as a servant in the palace and of course his identity is hidden from everyone, even from himself. He is apprenticed by Doctor Morgane, who helped give birth to him and knows his identity, and begins his education. Of course, King John died and was succeeded by his son Elias. One day, while Simon was wandering around the palace, he found the place where the king's brother Prince Joshua was captured and rescued him, and the doctor helped him escape the city, but when he was discovered, Simon had to flee, while the doctor and his companions died with an explosion. Simon is now on the road and learns the prophecy and his adventure begins. During this time, he begins to see some visions about Sithi and Asu'a, as I understand it, we learn about things that happened in the past through flashbacks. By the way, Simon was 14 when the story began. At one point he rescues a Sithi who was ambushed by the hunter and she leaves him a white arrow as a token of his debt, this is a special arrow I guess, not a normal human arrow. This arrow Chekhov weapon by the way, it kills the Storm King at the end of the story.

During his journey, he meets and falls in love with a girl named Marya, who claims to be the princess's bridesmaid, but later learns that she is the daughter of King Elias. At some point, the paths of the two diverge and they meet again in the future, confessing and accepting their love..etc. here are the traditional romantic parts... Simon also meets Binabik and continues his adventure with him as a friend, a comrade sort of like Sam. It is known that it is indispensable. We have Tolkien-style dragons in the series, they are portrayed as evil. Simon kills the "white" one of them. The dragon already has the nickname "White Worm". Meanwhile, his blood splashes in one spot of his hair, which creates a caustic damaging effect on him and his hair turns white there, also giving him some visions and some psychic powers. At the end of the series, Simon kills the princess and the Storm King, and they marry and begin to rule the realm.

Miriamele(or Marya): She is the daughter of King Elias and was neglected and treated badly by her father. She is a free personality who resists stereotypes and refuses to be like the traditional spoiled princesses. That's why she learns to use a bow, she is a master archer and carries a sword. This choice of bow will cause his archery skills to take an important action for her in the future. Our daughter finally escapes from the palace and, disguised as a boy, hits the road under the name Marya, meets and falls in love with Simon. At the end of their adventure together, they return home and witness that her father Elias' body has been taken by the Storm King, and she joins forces with Simon to kill her father with the arrow that Sithi gives to Simon. At the end of the story, she marries Simon and they begin to rule as king-queen. The two of them have at least one son.

King Elias: He takes the throne after his father's death and throws his brother in prison because he sees a threat. He mourns the death of his wife and somehow falls prey to the Storm King and the Red Priest, due to obsessions such as communicating with her spirit. At the end of the series, Ineluku takes over his body and is killed by his daughter; He came to his senses before he died. He is the red priest's puppet throughout the story, but at one point he is seen as the "main villain" until the real threat appears.

Prince Josua: The number two son of the deceased king, after being rescued by Simon, he enters the throne battle with his older brother. He is a good ruler loved by his people, but he has to make some difficult decisions that can lead his people to death. Later we learn that he is not actually King John's son, but his mother deceived the deceased king before. The story eventually disappears, he was thought to be dead, but I think in the author's new series (the story takes place 30 years later), we learn that he joined the Parchment League and went in search of his real father. He has twin children born to his wife. He has a slender sword named Naidel. The prince also has a beloved right-hand man named Ser Deornoth, who died at the Battle of Lake Glass, after whom he named his born son.

Binabik: Simon's companion and close friend, a troll but a stubby dwarf-like troll, not the kind of troll we're used to seeing in The Lord of the Rings. Anyway, trolls of his kind were more like dwarves. You know, there are those little figures that are put in their gardens in Europe because they are trolls. He was befriending a wolf. He has a talented and wise personality, unfortunately I couldn't find much information. Unfortunately, fans of this series have not created extensive fan pages as in ASOIAF.

And now we come to look for traces of this series in ASOIAF. Although, while I'm talking about it, I'm sure you made the connections in your head and found the similarities. The first step is to provide a rough summary, and then I'll try to make predictions by highlighting some of them.

SIMILARITIES

1. Jon Snow and Simon Snowlock. Although the story plots of the two characters are very different in general, they have the same story outline in the matter of "secret prince" and "hidden inheritance"; The father dies beforehand, the mother dies at birth, others raise them. They also stand out as the leading roles fighting against the “bad guy”. Of course, it is also worth noting that they both have the surname "Snow". The story of both begins in the house where they grew up, maybe Jon's story, like Simon, ends in his house. Both begin their stories when they were 14 years old.

2. Arya and Marya. In both series, rejecting traditional stereotypes and wanting to be a warrior, embarking on her own adventure; there are even princesses disguised as boy to a point; Maria and Arya. Arya is improving her swordsmanship(and other things), while Marya's archery skills are enhanced.

3. King Elias and his brother Prince Josua's battle for the throne and their hatred for each other; reminds us of Stannis and Renly's situation. The quote I already gave from GRRM implies this, the enmity of these two brothers was inspired by Josua and Elias. Even if Renly doesn't have king cloth, he is loved by his people, unlike to Stannis. Also known as the Red Priest of Elias or the Red Sorcerer, the character reminds us of Melisandre, who is mentioned in the same way for the first time. In Tad's series, the "playing dirty" side, King Elias, seems to be winning this battle, and Stannis, who uses "shadow magic" in ASOIAF, wins his battle with Renly, but of course, unlike the other series, Stannis' battle for the throne is not over yet. While Ser Davos, whom Stannis trusted so much, was his Hand; Ser Deornoth, whom Prince Josua also trusts, stands out as the "Hand of the Prince" and gives good advice to the men they serve. Of course, Prince Josua, who is in the Renly position against Stannis, has nothing similar to Renly, he is just loved by people, but the remaining parts are not alike. Elias and Josua's war represents the main upheaval that haunts people until the real threat comes, Stannis and Renly are similar but they are not the only representation in this regard, of course, there are other sides and wars as well.

4. The Red Priest, encouraging King Elias to sacrifice his brother; He says this will unite the kingdom. Melisandre also tells Stannis to sacrifice his brother's bastard son, Edric, which is part of the process that will awaken the stone dragons and save the Realm. She could probably encourage his daughter to burn Shrieen on a similar basis in the future.

5. Star and Comet. In both series, stars that herald the apocalypse/change appear. It's about the Storm King and the rise of the Dragons. The name "Star of the Conqueror" reminds me of the rise of Daenerys, which is called Aegon with tits, and the birth of dragons and what they will do.

6. Others/Norn. Silent in the cold, freezing mountains of the north for many years, the exiled Norns, when it is time for the Storm King to return 500 years later, set out to destroy humans because they hate them; they are led by a queen, the oldest of the undead. They call themselves the Child of the Clouds. And this at ASOIAF reminds us of the Others beyond the north, in a land of ice and cold, whose voice has not been heard for thousands of years. According to Martin, they hate people and ice symbolizes the feeling of revenge. The Norn queen in Tad's series also hated humans for causing the death of her son and husband, and because they were invaders, and wanted to destroy them all. She was seeking revenge. Perhaps there is a similar story behind The Others. Also, if you remember, I suggested that maybe a queen is running them. Also, Norns (and Sithi) are sentient and undead that can be killed with iron; they have good looks. Others are said to dislike iron and are beautiful in appearance. While the Norns are pale as corpses, the Others have similarly color, but they are made of ice.

7. Singers/Children of Dawn... So Sithi. They were the same race as the Norns, similar in hair and beauty, but different skin colors and eye colors. They also suffered a lot from the people, they were exiled and started to live in their secret cities in the forests. These remind me a little of the Children of the Forest. The Singers also dealt with human invaders at one time, but then made peace and retreated into their shells and lost some of their land to humans. If we look at Leaf and Bran's speech, Singers criticize people's attitudes. The Sithi eventually helped people, and the Singers helped people against the Others years ago, and it seems they still do now.

8. Winter. Both series have a winter emphasis. With the help of the Norn (in the north), the Storm King brings permanent winter to the Realm. I'm not sure, but I think there were imbalances in nature before because of evil. In the ASOIAF, it is said that the Others in the north will bring the endless winter. And seasons are unbalance, we know it because of this ice and fire thing.

9. Wolves. A wolf character is said to have an important role, but I couldn't find out who this wolf is or his role... I think he's talking about the wolf with whom the dwarf befriended. I'm not sure if it's possible to call it a similarity. Yes, there is a wolf emphasis in ASOIAF, but unlike Tad's series, the place and connection of the direwolf in the story is much more important and common. The case of using a wolf as a pet, though, fits.

10. Naidel/Needle. I've already mentioned a Naidel sword similar to Arya's Needle sword, but the bearers are very different and the sword doesn't seem to matter that much, but Arya's sword will likely play an important role.

11. Giants. There are ice giants in the north, there are giants in our series, there are even ice spiders in the north.

12. Main young boys/girls. Young boys/girls embark on challenging adventures in both series and their experiences change them, their spheres of influence are wide and eventually they grow up.

13. Tyrion/ Binabik. Binabik character stands out as intelligent and knowledgeable, and as I said before, he has a friendship with a wolf. At one point in the story he is tried and sentenced to death for a reason, even his own lover wishes him dead. This reminds us of Tyrion, who is a "dwarf" like him, he is clever and at one point was tried and sentenced to death for the murder of Joffrey, even his lover is among those who want him dead. In the first outline, he sided with Starks and was befriended by the wolf sisters Arya and Sansa before and after, so there was the "wolf friendship" issue like Tad's series. He still has wolf friendship, this time he has a close friendship with Jon.

14. Dead Kings. In both stories, after the death of the ancient kings, war breaks out in the realm. The realm is divided into factions.

15. Fancy Swords/Thrones. Both series have interesting thrones made of interesting materials and the characters struggle to get hold of it; Dragon Throne made of dragon bone and Iron Throne made of dragon flame.

16. Jon Conn? In Tad's series, Prince Josua's father is Ser Camaris, a very close friend of ex-king John and the legendary, mighty sword of the realm. He appears years later when everyone thinks he is dead. This reminds us of Sir Jon Connington, although this character was created when he was in book 3 and was probably created for Aegon, but that's where the idea came from, maybe not.

17. Hound. In both series, there is a character who wears the Hound helmet and serves the first stage villains. Of course, our Hound then leaves them and goes his own way.

18. The new religion. In both series, a new religion emerges in the realm that demands blood sacrifices. It is known in our series, the R'hllor belief led by Melisandre, but I did not see anything detailed about the new religion issue in Tad's series. Perhaps this is something the Red Priest himself pioneered, for the man is a priest and a sorcerer; He strives for the Storm King's arrival and urges the king to sacrifice his brother. He's probably bringing the new religion.

19. Faith. The dominant belief in both series was inspired by the Catholic faith.

20. AA/SK Prophecy. There is a prophecy and a legend in both series. In the Memory series it is said that three magic swords must come together to stop the villain, the Storm King; In ASOIAF, Azor Ahai, who is said to be said to defeat the villain, will be reborn, the born of dragons, and the existence and legend of the Lightbringer, who is called the sword of heroes.

21. Frozen Lake. I couldn't find any information, but in Tad's series it was written that there was a war by a frozen lake, and in book 6 we are waiting for Stannis' frozen lake war. However, there are some thoughts that this war may have been inspired by a historical event, which may be more likely.

22. Dragons. There are many references to dragons in both series, but the way and place of using them is different. There is also an emphasis on ice dragons in both series, we see it in Tad's series, but in Martin's series they are only mentioned as legends (but I think they exist).

23. Dawn/Thorn. Both series feature a legendary sword made from a falling meteor. Thorn and Dawn, but their looks are so opposite.

24. Cut Hand. There is a nobleman(Prince Jousa) who lost his right hand in both series, like Jaime.

25. And I think there is a people living on grasslands like the Dothraki in Memory.

26. Trees. Like the Weirdwood, Tad's series features magical Witch Trees that cover the earth.

27. Tiamak,a Scrollbearer, lives swamp lands like Howland Reed.

(Thanks to Samuel7899 for the last few additions and corrections.)

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by YeniAy_Ottoman