Promise me...?

[schpat]

On who else may know some of the detials:

I think that Jaime may know enough to at least coroborate some parts of the story once it comes out. He is the only remaining KG from that time.

Also there was some passage from AFFC that made be think that Ashara Dayne was actually in love with Prince Lexwin Martel (also of the KG) and when Ned told her that he had died on the Trident, that's why she threw herself off the tower.

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1654214' date='Jan 19 2009, 21.12']Roi Woodt, I'm still confused. I'm not surprised that all those years ago someone made a prophecy about a prince that was promised. The ancient prophecy is pretty standard in fantasy lit that involves prophecies. Think LOTR.[/quote]
iirc, in lord of the rings, we know who promised that the king would return, didn't we? We have totally no clue now, certainly not the gods I hope?

[quote]You're saying that someone in the distant past somehow heard Ned's promise to Lyanna and that alone is the start of the whole PTWP idea?[/quote]
Well, that prophet also saw this same boy leading the war against the darkness. That's the reason he was prophecising in the first place, but to name him, he looked back (or got a vision) about his birth. And at his birth this (according to Ned) important promises are made, therfor he named this boy, the prince that was promised.


[quote]While we certainly don't all agree, I think a lot of fans of the series think she asked him to promise her that he'd take her child, if she had one, and raise it in safety at Winterfell, where she and Ned were raised. If that's all it is, that seems to me to be a pretty lame prophecy.[/quote]
Why? You just said that it was a pretty standard thing to do in literature. Don't you think it's a nice twist of the standard to use exactly that kind of standard prophecy, the old and classic prince that was promised, but give it a different meaning. Not promised by some kind of external power, but promised by an actually character. Reappearing promises in the book, not some unmentioned promises, but important promies. Promises which made the main character of the first book lie to his wife, his children, his friends and everyone else. This main character being Ned Stark, a man that is knwon for his honorable reputation. This man is lying to the whole world, because of those promises. And I think, without those promises, that boy wouldn't be where he is now. Leading the Nightwatch in the distant North. You say that promise wasn't important, I say that promise led Jon to where he is now. And to me, that is much less lame, than a meaningless prophecy telling about the standard prince again....

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Jaquen Hgharr' post='1654643' date='Jan 20 2009, 01.55']Was there any evidence that ashara was there to take the baby at all?

Seems a pretty vapid theory to me[/quote]
Vapid? It is common knowledge that Ned took Jon [i]from Ashara[/i]. Here’s Cersei in [i]Game[/i]:
[quote]Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I’m told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole?[/quote]
We’re told this directly. Eddard “steals” Jon from Ashara. Of course, this may not be literal, but how could such a rumour have come into existence? Many possibilities. But it’s certainly plausible that people saw Eddard ride up to Starfall without a baby, and saw him leave with a baby (and a wet nurse). Shortly afterwards, Ashara kills herself.

Otherwise, it’s much harder to invent a scene where the Ashara–Ned rumour starts. It can be done, of course, and I’d be happy to see some suggestions, preferably less vapid ones than mine. But from the theory I present it springs [i]without any extra work[/i] – it’s a natural consequence of how the scene would have looked to outsiders.

[Szar]

It's more likely that the theory exists because the nobility knew about Ned and Ashara meeting and falling in love at the tourney of Harrenhal, and went to the logical conclusion when, later, he's shown to have fathered a bastard.

Especially since Cersei mentioned commoners as possible mothers to Jon just prior to that comment. She wouldn't have done so if the theory was because they had at least some tangible evidence that Ned got Jon from Ashara.

[Shewoman]

I agree with Szar: a lot of the nobility was at Harrenhal and were probably aware of the attraction between Ned and Ashara there.

Roi Woodt, I said that ancient prophecies aren't unusual in literature of this sort. But if the whole Prince That Was Promised thing comes down to Lyanna asking Ned to raise Jon in Winterfell and keep his identity secret, that seems pretty lame to me.

Jon is not a prince unless Rhaegar and Lyanna were married.

[Robb19]

Benjen could know but the people who think so aren't looking in the right place. The correct quote to explore is when they're talking at the feast in Winterfell about Jon taking the black and Jon says to Benjen "You're not my father" and Benjen responds with "More's the pity" which suggests Jon would be better off being Benjen's son. Why would Jon be better off being Benjen's son than Ned's?

The scenario I think makes sense is that Benjen regrets taking the black and would rather have a son, but still there is room for speculation there. Some speculation along the lines of "Benjen knows that as the son of R+L, Jon is in a lot of personal danger and will not have an easy life. That's why it's a pity that Jon isn't Benjen's son."

Happy Ent, thanks for the idea of Ned picking up Jon from Ashara at Starfall. GRRM has said many times that Ashara didn't just stay in Starfall her whole life, so that's got that going for it too. Thanks.

[The SmilingKnight]

[quote]Especially since Cersei mentioned commoners as possible mothers to Jon just prior to that comment. She wouldn't have done so if the theory was because they had at least some tangible evidence that Ned got Jon from Ashara.[/quote]
Yes, i always figured that was just a cheap shot from Cersei to hurt Eddard. And that connection to Ashara would be something Eddard didnt publicly want to disprove or renounce because it muddled the matter even more for anyone who might be wondering about his "bastard".

Certainly i dont know what went down. Thats just how i took it.
And i do believe her brothers death could be enough for her to commit suicide. As we know some brothers and sisters have really deep connections in Songs.
Ah... i cant wait to finally learn the truth of it, damn it...

[Shewoman]

Blood of my Blood said, "Well I think that the sword of the morning never died. Eddard remembers fighting the kings guard and Lyanna screaming his name and here is where start to wonder. Was Lyanna succesful in making these three(Arthur, Ned and Howland) men with some degree of personal honor to stop fighting. Ned was still under the impression that Lyanna was kidnapped not just fooling around with the Prince. So it is concievable that she was able to make them stop long enough to talk to Eddard explain the situation and make him promise something (IMHO- Jon is Taryengen - Ned protects Jon from Robert who was perfectly fine to kill all Taryengens, even babies. Which was a big rift between them shown at Neds responds to Roberts attitude concerning Elia's kids deaths)."

What makes you think any of this? No, Lyanna didn't stop them from fighting; Howland and Ned were the only survivors (and Ned survived because Howland took down Arthur Dayne). If the KG had promised ("We swore an oath," one of them said) to keep anyone from taking Lyanna's child, they couldn't stop fighting. Martin has said that Ned's dream-memory of the Tower of Joy is a fever dream--not entirely accurate. Nor, I should point out, is it entirely inaccurate. Ned and his friends did fight the 3 KG, apparently near to where Lyanna was being kept.

In your scenario, how and why does Lyanna die in a room smelling of blood? She's near death when Ned finds her--doesn't sound like she would have been able to run outside and try to stop warriors from fighting each other. Why do you think Arthur Dayne survived? In the privacy of his own mind, Ned thinks that he and Howland were the only survivors.

Roi Woodt, I'm still confused by your theory. "The Prince That Was Promised" sounds to me like 1) a reference to a prince that someone promised would come (like Aragorn in LOTR) or 2) A prince that someone made a promise to. Ned promising to raise him is not the same thing. Unless R+L=marriage, Jon is not a prince.

[BloodofmyBlood]

Shewoman,

[i]Howland and Ned were the only survivors (and Ned survived because Howland took down Arthur Dayne).[/i] - No where does it say that Howlend killed arthur dayne. Ned says he would have died if it wasn't for Howlend. Nothing as to him killing the sword of the morning. From the Knight of the Laughing Tree story it is shown that Howlend Reed is not a big fighter getting beaten up by 3 squires yet he can take down the best knight Ned Stark ever knew?

[i]If the KG had promised ("We swore an oath," one of them said) to keep anyone from taking Lyanna's child, they couldn't stop fighting.[/i] -They swore an oath to protect their King, that is not limited to just fighting to the death. Other arrangments could have been made or in my scenario hostilities suspended. What if Rhygaer told the KG to obey his Queen to be?

[i]In your scenario, how and why does Lyanna die in a room smelling of blood? She's near death when Ned finds her--doesn't sound like she would have been able to run outside and try to stop warriors from fighting each other.[/i] Hello She is in a Tower and you can scream while in Bed. Ned remembers her screaming not where she was screaming from. The Starks were close sibilings and If Lyanna would do all she could to stop her brother from being killed.

[i]Why do you think Arthur Dayne survived? In the privacy of his own mind, Ned thinks that he and Howland were the only survivors.[/i] This is more of me wanting him to be alive then anything really. there are just to many unanswered questions about TOJ.But I am willing to admit he more then likely had some noble death.


On the matter of Ned's Promise and the PTWP prophecey, I think the prince is foretold in coming therefore he is promised. An example "The Promised Land" is not the place where people who make promises go. It is the foretelling which is the promise, nothing to do with the acctualy prince.

Ent, as to Ashara taking Jon why are the 3 Kingsguards there and not with the heir? The would be considered Loyalists as well. If they are a Red herring, I would think at least 1 would go with the babe.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='BloodofmyBlood' post='1655548' date='Jan 20 2009, 20.31']From the Knight of the Laughing Tree story it is shown that Howlend Reed is not a big fighter getting beaten up by 3 squires yet he can take down the best knight Ned Stark ever knew?[/quote]
The Howland Superwarg theory has it that according to the story, Howland is indeed not a big fighter, but a l33t spellcaster. He can do everything Bran can do, [i]and[/i] has studied for years at the Isle of Faces. Especially, he can remote-control others, just like Bran intuitively remote-controls Hodor. So Howland makes Ser Arthur miss a parry in the sword fight against Ned.

[quote]Ent, as to Ashara taking Jon why are the 3 Kingsguards there and not with the heir? The would be considered Loyalists as well. If they are a Red herring, I would think at least 1 would go with the babe.[/quote]
They are certainly loyalists. The best use of them was [i]not[/i] to ride with Ashara and the heir. That would make it obvious to anybody that he babe is the heir, after all. Instead, Ashara travelled with 35 “normal” warriors. Much safer. The Kingsguard stayed behind to watch over the dying Lyanna [i]in order to prevent her from talking to anybody[/i]. It’s a terrible end to their careers, but beautiful because they are conflicted in their oaths: they can’t [i]kill[/i] Lyanna (even though it would be best for the heir and therefore what their KG vows would demand), because as knights they also swore to protect women and innocents. It’s a culmination of all the moral conundrums that GRRM has carefully built into his setting. [i]Everything[/i] falls into place.

[Shewoman]

Blood of my Blood, I didn't say Howland killed Dayne, but according to Ned he kept Dayne from killing Ned. And Ned does remember that he and Howland were the only survivors of that battle.

I think the presence of 3 Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy requires some explanation, considering that during part of that time the war was still going on. They said that they swore an oath and I think they did--to Rhaegar, promising to protect Lyanna and her child, if she had one. Since Rhaegar and Aerys are both dead before Ned's men and the Kings Guard fight, no one can absolve them of that oath to Rhaegar.

Lyanna, as described in Ned's memory of being with her as she died, sounds like she would have been too weak to have screamed loud enough to be heard outside of the building she was in by warriors who were fighting and therefore making a certain amount of noise themselves. Remember that Martin says this is a fever dream.

Happy Ent, where does the figure of 35 warriors traveling with Ashara come from? Why would it be best for the heir for Lyanna to be killed? At this point, Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, and Rhaenys are all dead and no one, as far as I know, knows about Dany. If Jon is Rhaegar's legitimate son, he's the heir. If he's not, Viserys is. What heir is Lyanna's death best for? Viserys? Doesn't Jaime remember that by the age of 8 or so he was already showing signs of the Targ insanity?

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1655724' date='Jan 20 2009, 22.14']Happy Ent, where does the figure of 35 warriors traveling with Ashara come from?[/quote]
Thin air.

[quote]Why would it be best for the heir for Lyanna to be killed?[/quote]
Well, Lyanna wants to cheat him out of his birth right. So from the loyalist perspective, she’d better be dead. Of course, the loyalists are also Good Guys, so there’s a moral problem.

[Shewoman]

[b]Does[/b] Lyanna want to cheat the heir out of his birthright? If the promise she asks of Ned is to raise her child as his in Winterfell, as far from Kings Landing as he can get without going to the Wall, it doesn't sound like she's scheming to place him on the throne. If Rhaegar is his father, Rhaegar will never be able to make that claim. And, actually, I'm not sure that Rhaegar's purpose was to create more Targaryen heirs. He talked more about the 3 heads of the dragon--and Martin has said they don't all have to be Targs.

Given Viserys' rather conflicted relationship with the concept of sanity, I think there might be some loyalists who would be glad to see someone else take the throne.

[Shewoman]

schpat, what do you think Jaime might know? If the 3 KG were sent on a secret mission, Jaime (not yet Commander of the Kingsguard) wouldn't know it.

[the silent speaker]

[quote]Also there was some passage from AFFC that made be think that Ashara Dayne was actually in love with Prince Lexwin Martel (also of the KG) and when Ned told her that he had died on the Trident, that's why she threw herself off the tower.[/quote]
Lewin Martell's lover still lives in DOrne. Arianne offered to introduce her to Arys.

I tok Benjen's "more's the pity" to mean "...because I'm right, and if you were my son you would [i]have [/i]to listen to me." Not necessarily a critique either of Ned's parenting in general or of Jon's prospects with Ned for a father. More of a figure of speech.
[quote]And that connection to Ashara would be something Eddard didnt publicly want to disprove or renounce because it muddled the matter even more for anyone who might be wondering about his "bastard".[/quote]
"'And now, my lady, I will hear where you heard that name,' and the name Ashara Dayne was never whispered in Winterfell again."

[The SmilingKnight]

[quote]"'And now, my lady, I will hear where you heard that name,' and the name Ashara Dayne was never whispered in Winterfell again."[/quote]
hmmm... yes, quite.
Still, it was his own house and he didnt want to hear that rumor there since he probably found it very insulting personally as a slight of her honor after he killed her brother which made her kill herself. And very probably something else too which is being hidden from us.

Then again, publicly (as in at court and among the other nobles) trying to renounce that rumor could have only flamed it more... ah to hell with it!

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1655457' date='Jan 20 2009, 19.26']Roi Woodt, I'm still confused by your theory. "The Prince That Was Promised" sounds to me like 1) a reference to a prince that someone promised would come (like Aragorn in LOTR) or 2) A prince that someone made a promise to. Ned promising to raise him is not the same thing. Unless R+L=marriage, Jon is not a prince.[/quote]
Imo GRRM does make it look like it is 1, but it really is number 2. You are forgetting that those visions are itchy. Once again I ask you to be the prophet. You see a newborn child, you can strongly see his ice and fire aura, you can see the kingsblood from his father, and then you see the vision about the promises, knowing it is about the boy, you hear the voices a la Ned in your head, promise me Ned, promise me.... I ask you, how would you call this boy (being a prophet)? Maybe he does indeed say that it wasn't that clear, but those things kind of get forgotten. However, the prophet also said something about a boy, with kingsblood, and promises. It must be a prince then, a prince that was promised! And voila, there is your prince. I have no idea how it happened, but it's not that difficult to imagine a scenario how Jon's birth could lead to a prince that was promised. Who else made those promises? R'hlorr, the old gods, the drowned god, the maesters, Azor Ahai, Nymeria, the children, an oracle disguised as a dragon, the valar, Eru? That's a much more difficult question to answer, in my opinion.


[quote name='BloodofmyBlood' post='1655548' date='Jan 20 2009, 20.31']On the matter of Ned's Promise and the PTWP prophecey, I think the prince is foretold in coming therefore he is promised. An example "The Promised Land" is not the place where people who make promises go. It is the foretelling which is the promise, nothing to do with the acctualy prince.[/quote]
foretold by whom? You are saying there is a prophecy written down about the prince that was promised, but there were no promises. Someone saw in a vision a prince, and assumed that it was a promise by someone to send them in their direst need thousands of years later. Is that what you meant?

[bodhi]

One of the problems with TOJ is that more people should know that Lyana was pregnat and Ned just happen to come home with a baby that day. How about all the servants, hello.

I would guess Reed knows and Benjen and Varys suspect it. Some of the Martells should also be able to put 2 and 2 together.

[schpat]

[quote name='Shewoman' post='1655850' date='Jan 21 2009, 00.35']schpat, what do you think Jaime might know? If the 3 KG were sent on a secret mission, Jaime (not yet Commander of the Kingsguard) wouldn't know it.[/quote]

He would at least know that they were on a secret mission, possibly that they were in Dorne. That in itself would help corroborate a story, if Jaime wanted to.

Also there may have been some throwaway comment that he thought nothing of until the pieces of the puzzel fit together.

All I'm trying to say is that if anybody that wasn't there has any info about what happned at the TOJ then that person may be Jaime.

[snookyrump]

Perhaps Lyanna's bones in the crypts at Winterfell hold some answers as well.