Roi Woodt

[i]What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.[/i] Great chapter again, and I hope Ramsay is skinning Theon's ironborn skin away, and even more so I hope that underneath it, there is Starkisch direwolf pelt that will eventually turn against his Boltonic masters. Some advise for potential readers of the spoiler chapter: Finish your lunch first!

[quote name='cybroleach' post='1314964' date='Apr 15 2008, 17.41']The Horse is simple since the Other is riding it shouldn't be too hard to change orders on the fly. The orders at the fist could have just been to "kill all the NWmen there", that's why they follow NWmen after the first battle and keep killing them but like the TFM said I also believe they can handle some of the smaller tactical details. AND with Varamyr (unless the chapter was changed again since I saw it): we're seeing two different sets of wights one sent to kill him and does while the second are after Bran & Co where Varamyr's wolves just happen to be, thus they'd have different orders to begin with Bran himself being a warg the wights after him were likely supposed to kill his beasts thus seeing Varamyr in wolf might just be bad luck for him since they were already looking to kill wargs there.[/quote] I disagree, but I am out of arguments, or more specific, out of memory. It's time for a reread for me. [quote name='The Fat Man' post='1315002' date='Apr 15 2008, 18.02']Well, then, which people long in their grave were you referring to?[/quote] I give up, I have no idea which people I am reffering to, my memory is unfortunately out of my reach. I thought the Others digged up people to wightify, but I have really no idea if that's right. I am unable to discuss any further, since I do not know if my arguments are real. I lost. Benjen, [quote]We just don't know enough yet, but something tells me this mystery will be much clearer by the time I reach the end of DwD. I can only hope.[/quote] Me too.

[quote name='cybroleach' post='1310756' date='Apr 11 2008, 22.39']I'd go with, more or less "the Others substracted the information and gave the wights the entire plan," since I dont see the wights as real plotters in the group just foot soldiers, I could see it going something like this Jafar and Othor gets wighted, the Others get a buch of info out of the two of them, they decied it be best to get in a quick attack on the NW leaders then decied that having the NW find the two dead rangers they're looking for is the least suspicous, give Jafar and Othor instructions to kill Mormont and Rykker quietly when they come to. Thus the Others came up with the general outline but the wights filled in the little blanks. I don't see how this makes it hard to control the animals either, an animal being wighted under this theory would have the same singular desire to please its master. Living thinking animals take instructions easy enough why would wighted ones be more difficult, it may alternatively be that the Others who I beleive can get info from their wights easily can also communicate with their wighted animals in the same manner although I'd gather there's not alot to be gained from a horses prior knowledge.[/quote] What if the entire plan the Other somehow communicated to the horse is: "We go to the Wall", and then they encounter Sam. How can the Others change the plans for their Wights? Changing "Kill humans on the Fist" into "Kill humans near the Wall". Or if you read the prologue chapter, "kill Varamyr", into "kill the wolf he just went into..." etc. It looks like they have a way of changing their Wights plans. [quote name='The Fat Man' post='1311396' date='Apr 12 2008, 18.00']The latter, I bet. unOthor has enough presence of mind to kill a guard silently; I think 'he' could handle other tactical details.[/quote] I have no good arguments anymore, but I don't think they work this way. Imo it would be somewhat more realistic if they were remote controlled, instead of impregnated with a goal to achieve. [quote]Wait... are you a proponent of the Mance created Others theory? Because that's been fairly well disproven. Unless you mean other people that have been in their graves for a long time?[/quote] I meant the latter. I am not a proponent of Mance creating Others, that does not make sence to me. Craster was the one giving his babies away though, maybe the theory was about him, not that he himself created Others.

[quote name='cybroleach' post='1309137' date='Apr 10 2008, 19.05']Where does this intel come from do they have spies in the watch? Do they torture their victoms? Do they sneek into Castle Black in the middle of the night to find out its layout? I pretty sure not. Thus it comes from the wights.[/quote] [i]The Others have a thousand eyes, a thousand eyes and blue. little "dead" birds[/i]. I think the information could have come from rangers, that ware unaware of dead animals that were listening. Although I don't think it is nessesary that they had that intelligence, they looked as if they felt superiour. One Wight they could have "wighted" to the tower, because it made sense that was the place of some sort of commander. The seconds was "wighted" another way, I don't have my books with me, but could it be that he just tried to kill the one that shouted the commands? [quote]There no luck required here. Jafar and Othor already know their not going to be burned on site because they haven't seen the NW burn anyone their entire service. And they know that being former NW men who died where their bodies would be taken until their burried back on the other side of the wall, and escape what being an unguarded corpse placed in storage? All of these are details the the two wights would have at their disposal.[/quote] Aha, I didn't look at it this way, the Wights would know ofcourse, didn't think about that. But how do you think it worked then? The Others substracted the information and gave the wights the entire plan, or did they gave the Wights their goals and did the Wights figure out themselves how to do it? The problem I have mostly with this, is that the Others also wighted animals. And also people that were in their graves for a very long time. How do you give them clear instructions? How could anOther ride a horse?

[quote name='Prince of the North' post='1308090' date='Apr 9 2008, 22.54']I theorize that Coldhands has black extremeties because he was dead in the frozen north long enough for his extemities to suffer severe frostbite and turn black before he was resurrected. I mean, we saw that both Beric and Lady Stoneheart still exhibited some signs of what their bodies had been through even after resurrection. Why not Coldhands, too? Also, imho, this theory accounts for Coldhands autonomy at least as plausibly as saying he was a wight who was somehow "de-wightified" :)[/quote] How about, he was a corpse, wightified by the Others. The children found the wandering (or sleeping/resting) corpse, were able to perform the dead-awakening ceremony, the kiss of fire. The corpse got his memory back (like Beric and Cat), the Others lost their abilty to "wight" coldhands, because he could think for himself again and won't allow the Others to take control over his body again. No new magic is needed. Didn't Coldhands have those blue, glowing eyes? If not, "the kiss of fire" alone could explain his autonomy as well.

[quote name='The Fat Man' post='1308076' date='Apr 9 2008, 22.39']Actually, I'd call that the strongest evidence _against_ a warging theory. Our poor remote-Other-operator suddenly has to control two bodies instead of one? You'd go schizophrenic trying to do that. Varamyr doesn't warg into more than one of his beasts at a time, and he's the most adept human skinchanger we know of.[/quote] I think that is very weak evidence, because it's still the same body, only seperated. You can't compare this with skinchanging in multiple animals, because in that case, you would have indeed multiple bodies and it would be difficult which animals claw you are using. In Othor's case, his right hand, is still his right hand (not a hand of another body). [quote]And I don't disagree that the Others would have undertaken some risk in sending Othor and Jafer Flowers where they could be found by the Night's Watch. But the risk is minimal (they lose two wights, and there's definitely more where they came from), and the rewards could potentially be great: throwing the Night's Watch into confusion would help the Others in the battle to come.[/quote] I think there is no risk at all, only bringing back memories maybe, but that's not my point. It's the enormous amount of luck which they have. Actually, it's the difference between Petyr and Varys. You are saying, the Others worked a la Varys (using Tyrion for killing Tywin), I think they worked more a la Petyr (use the situation as it is, and create chaos). In the first case, the luck is needed to make it work, in the second case, the luck is just happening. [quote]The Others would have to make two relatively safe assumptions to justify this plan: 1) that curiosity would overpower fear in this case, which, especially given that these are two rangers who recently disappeared and then seemingly died mysteriously, seems pretty reasonable;[/quote] depends on how much the Others know about the Nightwatch. They encountered wildlings before, they burned their dead. The Wall is made because of them. The Brothers sole existence are the others. Either the Others know more, which I suspect, or they wouldn't have reason to think such a Wight would be carried in. [quote]2) that the Night's Watch, after eight thousand years, have forgotten about the wights and what they can do. As far as we know, the practice of regularly burning the dead didn't come (back) to the Night's Watch until after Othor and Jafer Flowers showed up, and it hasn't been the practice in the North for thousands of years either--hence the crypts of Winterfell--so that seems reasonable as well.[/quote] See point above. Ser Scot, [quote]I don't see why Wights couldn't be subject to control and capable of independent action that furthers the goals of the Others who have raised them from the dead. It would certianly be useful to have them retain there memories so they will be capable of inside attacks like that on Castle Black. The direct control is useful when they are doing mass attacks like that on the Fist of the First Men. This is magic after all.[/quote] It would certainly be useful to have them retain their memories, but personnally, I don't like it. I hope that satifies as an argument... guess not :) However, some of those Wights have been long dead, some of them are animals, situations change, but most importantly, if the Others don't have these memories as well, how can they give them these orders? They are speaking a different language, they probably don't know what they are talking about. A side question, can skinchangers give their beasts orders? I know a shadow can be given an order, but that is, imo, a different kind of magic and Mel is speaking the same language as Stannis, which "memory" she uses.

Other-in-law, I have done some searching, and actually, I found something you quoted a long time ago: [quote][i]It seemed to sprout from solid rock, it's pale roots roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, it's limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?"[/i][/quote] Once again I was wrong. Looks like the roots of this particular weirwood tree starts here, however, it also looks like the magic itself (Bran's communication) is reaching Jon (Ghost) through the roots. Maybe that's why it can pass the Wall, the magic doesn't go trough the air, but through the earth.

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1307213' date='Apr 9 2008, 08.38']Really? Where in the books? That would probably require roots that went on for hundreds of miles...and across the sea if there are trees on Bear Island or Skagoc. There definitely are some on the Isle of Faces...do their roots go under the lake?[/quote] Hmm, I am probably terribly wrong. I shouldn't have mentioned it coming from the books, because I am not so sure about that, I think that was wishfull thinking. although I do remember something about their roots being connected. My guess would be old Nan. On the other hand, maybe I am mixing up books, theories and prophecies and use false information to support my posts, I shouldn't do that, I will go have a look somewhere to try to find some evidence.

Strongest evidence for the Wights being remote controlled: If not "wighted" into by another person, how can a mere hand attack someone? (and yes, I do know it is a fantasy book) The Wall is build to keep out the Others, I bet the children also wanted to keep out the Wights with their magic, but maybe they couldn't. To keep out the Wights they build a massive Wall, with gates!! which shouldn't be opened for them. About the intelligence of the Others: Why would it be so weird if the Others would know about their greatest enemy? That the watchers forgot about the Others, because they didn't encounter them for hundreds of years, the Others probably didn't forget. They have planned this attack, wouldn't it be wise to gather information somehow. It weren't secrets that those two were the highest in command, they had lots of years to figure out the Nightwatch, I think they are very capable. [quote]Secondly, it's not particularly lucky that O & JF were found where they were.[/quote] It's luck that they weren't burned instantaniously, that they were brought to the other side of the Wall and that they could escape so easily to try to kill their "programmed" victims. It's partly the same luck as is needed if it wasn't all planned, except the luck is different. In the first scenario everything is planned beforehand, and they got the luck they wanted. In the seconds case, they didn't have to plan anything, but when the possibility was there, they took it and tried to kill the highest rank Watchers. About the communication trough the Wall, I think it is mentioned in the books that the roots of the Weirwoods are attached to one and another, the communication probably went that way.

[quote name='Benjen' post='1305750' date='Apr 8 2008, 15.24']though the wights do seem to retain some trace of memory that the Others have access to.[/quote] Really? Because one of the Wights walked to the Lord Commander's office, or is there more evidence that points towards this, perhaps I have forgotten something. The Others are clearly intelligent, maybe they already knew how to reach the Lord Commander's room, maybe the Wight went there accidently, maybe the Other that was looking trough the eyes of the Wight was a smart one and figured out that some sort of important person had to be in that tower. Imo, there could be more then one reason why the Wight was able to walk directly to Mormont's room.

[quote name='Ran' post='1305668' date='Apr 8 2008, 13.47']Who knows? Dumping them right outside the Wall may have seemed too suspicious even to the Others, I suppose. Jon never suggests that he loses track of Ghost some distance beyond the Wall, in any case -- the Wall itself is the barrier.[/quote] The problem I have is that if everything was programmed beforehand, the amount of luck they have is tremendous. First they are found accidentely by a direwolf at an unknown moment, second, they are transported to the other side of the Wall. Third, one is able to attack the watchers while the other is programmed to kill the commander, which works out pretty well, except for same mentioned direwolf. For me, it's much easier to believe that with an unbelievable amount of luck (maybe it wasn't even intended) the wights were on the Other side of the Wall when the Others opened their eyes, they took this oppurtunity to "wight" one of them to the commander tower and the other one they took to create some distraction. It would be strange that one from of magic can reach through the Wall, while another cannot, but it's not entirely unthinkable. Maybe the children made a mistake, or they didn't have spells to stop this kind of magic and accidentally stopped the warging, but not the wighting. Another thing, the Others have also wightified animals, if I remember correctly one of them is riding a wighted horse. Apparently, they use it for speed. How could such a horse be programmed? Looks to me it's easier to "wight' a horse and make it move towards the direction you want it to move. Hopefully I am not wrong about the horse... [quote]Similarly, consider Melisandre and the walls of the Storm's End, seemingly protected in similar fashion. She merely had to pass through the walls to be able to use her magic. She didn't have to pass through and then go some significant distance beyond, at least according to anything she indicated.[/quote] I don't think a shadow could pass through the Wall either, that's a magical creature, while a Wight is a magically abused human.

[quote name='Ran' post='1305606' date='Apr 8 2008, 12.29']It's a barrier where that magic stops dead.[/quote] Why didn't the Wights walk closer to the Wall? [quote]I said he was wightified, not that he was a wight. ;) He has the black, cold hands of the wights, after all. My guess is that he [i]was[/i] a wight who the children wrested away from the Others and were able to restore his humanity. Just a guess, though.[/quote] I agree here, although I think your wresting away is different from mine :). I think you see them as programmed "robots", iirc, and they removed that from his brain and gave him his own body back. I think they resurrected him (kinda like the beric way) which brought him back to live and therefor he was able to remove the Wight-bond himself.

Ran, We had this discussion a long time ago, I am prepared to take up arms again, but in the end we probably disagree again. I did want to create a seperate topic to avoid kidnapping this thread, however, I am unable to do that. I think the magic in the Wall is meant to stop the Others, some side-efects of the magic are that the "warg"-bond cannot be felt through the Wall. Other magical things aren't stopped, like Mel feeling hot, Stannis glowing sword, weirwood communication. And in my opinion Coldhands is not comparable with Wights. He seem to be able to talk and think for himself, it looks like he controls ravens and is riding a living Elk. He is more like a magical creature, such as a child of the forest and an Other, then a zombie.

[quote name='Ran' post='1304480' date='Apr 7 2008, 20.09']Precisely. The plan was clearly to have the unwitting Night's Watch carry the corpses that last crucial distance to the other side of the Wall, [s]so that they could awaken on that side.[/s][/quote]so that they didn't have to open the gate themselves. (imo) However, I think the Others first have to touch their victim somehow before they can use it as a wightified attacker. Janos is probably save from Others, hanging 600 feet above the ground.

No matter what his reason was, he should have burned the bastard. Other-wise, the hanged Janos will soon crawl up the Wall again... Great chapter, I look forward to read the real deal. Thanks for this spoiler LYBG, how can you be so sure that Jon's dream wasn't prophetic, all dreams are prophetic, valar dreamaris, it is known :)