GoT Mafia Game 70.5 - Jingle Hell

[House Thorne]

The case against Gimli is pretty plain and doesn't really require fleshing out. Gimli may have been signalling. Instead of showing why he wasn't he continues to joke about it and worse, continues on with it, as seen in his 'hypothetical' discussion about how he would react as FM.

What are you reading? The hypothetical discussion had nothing to do with me being an FM, even hypothetically. :bang:

What it did say is that, if I were a symp, or even if I were pretending to be a symp, the reaction from Tyrion would suggest innocence, whereas that of Bashful would not and could have been an attempt at a subtle FM reaction.

[House Clegane]

There are some contradictory and confusing points in your post. I wanted to point out so you could explain when you get back; you say you didn't like it when sleepy said your case is stretched, you didnt like it that he discouraged opinions, you didnt like his comment about people with strong opinions being suspicious.

Personally I dont mind re-reads in any phase of the game, but when you just list some stuff you didnt like about a player which is a quite long list for day one and then you still strongly believe he is innocent and then again you continue to claim he is trying much harder than an innocent would! sorry but this kind of posts bother me alot. another issue is that you didnt explain your dislike for his actions which looks to me that you are just throwing shit to see if any sticks.

Well, I'm not throwing shit to see what sticks. I don't know what else you want me to explain.

I am seeing where Tyrion's wishy-washy post came from. By itself it is a fair case.

I knew this would happen :) Yeh if i had taken time to think through things before i posted i'd've made sure it didn't come across so wishy-washy (such a process may seem indicative of being evil, but i have to do it no matter what my alignment), but i didn't. and I didn't because it helps me to keep track if i actually post what i am literally thinking (assuming i'm not actually trying to build a case or something). remove vote by the way, i meant to do this earlier but forgot, i'll vote somewhere else when i've had a proper think.

Im still waiting for Tyrion to answer my questions,

What questions?

I am not changing anything. I have said that I am still unsure of Sleeppy. It's his choice of target that concerns me, because the target he has chosen was the only one who has suggested a viable potential symp at the time. It didn't look like anybody else was willing to go there, so I chose to vote Bashful because it seemed a more realistic choice at the time. I would be more than happy to change to Gimli or Sleeppy if the opportunity arises.

EDIT: remove repeated quote

Hmm I don't like this Durin. The thread's been through this before, with reference to Gimli, but why were you concerned with realisticness of a lynch all that time ago?

This is weird. Gimli's post contained both a and a , so I have no idea how Tyrion could have misread it. The strangest part is how nonchalant Tyrion comes across to me--he seems to take an evil revealing on Day One perfectly in stride. Could be an antsy FM looking for an excuse to park his vote somewhere, although it seems like a ridiculous conclusion for someone of any alignment to make.

Continuing this theme:

On a gut level, I don't like the tone of the last sentence. He's utterly non-apologetic about having voted someone on false pretenses. Besides, Gimli used both a and a . How did his sarcasm not travel? You'd think there'd be a little "oh, right...I'm an idiot, sorry" moment. Also, note that Tyrion never removed his vote, even after realizing his mistake. His vote is still on Gimli.

I will grant him that his reasoning for believing someone would reveal as Santa is somewhat plausible. I know that I was dreading drawing the Santa role once I saw the updated rules, since it's almost unplayable.

I guess I was unapologetic, because all i had to be apologetic for was not realising that someone had lied to me - clearly i haven't played mafia for too long and know people who are too trustworthy, but i was then still in the mode of thinking that it's generally the person who lies who apologises (not that i'm suggesting Gimli should apologise - obviously it's a game, i just hadn't subconsciously accepted that at the time I suppose). And I missed the smileys, or at least their significance.

[House Clegane]

As for the whole symp thing, I believe I have explained myself, and if people don't particularly like my explanation, then tough. I'm fed up of explaining myself, and I'm getting fed up of defending myself from stuff, to the point where I'm actually struggling to coherently think about the other goings on on this thread.

Believe me, don't, to be quite honest I don't particularly care at the moment.

If you're innocent then you shouldn't get this fed up about defending yourself - if people don't buy your explanations, it's no big deal, cos your death won't be that bad for the team, so you should spend your time trying to find the real bad guys. Honestly you now strike me as an FM frustrated to have gathered so much suspicion so early on. Gimli

[House Corbray]

:tantrum:

Honestly, you exasperate me.

I have never said that I was waiting for someone else to say something about Bashful. You have INFERRED this based on something that I said, and inferred this INCORRECTLY, as I have pointed out. I have pointed out that I wasn't willing to vote for Bashful on the basis of a fairly weak point, and that I wanted to see more from Bashful before deciding (ie more input). NOWHERE have I said that I wanted some weak-kneed posse of admirers to come and validate my post before voting for him. However, you have not only continued to WILFULLY MISREPRESENT what I have posted, but have seemingly ignored what I wrote, while at the same time quoting it. As for confirmation bias, you obviously had a preconception as to my guilt or innocence which caused you to read much further into something than was there, and to stick your head in the sand when I attempted to explain (a pointless and thankless task I feel).

Doc

Ok. If you want to say that "subsequent input" means "more input from Bashful" fine. I don't think that's what you meant. Subsequent input to me means more input from other people, as you're lookign for more information. If you wanted more input from Bashful, you would have said "if Bashful does anything else suspicious" instead of "waiting for subsequent input." Your choice of wording makes no sense with your explanation, especially when you seem so damn particular about defending each individual word. I would think that someone like you who defends the literal meaning of every word, you'd be a bit more careful with what you say. That is, of course, unless you were playing mafia where what you say isn't always what you mean :dunno:

But that's ok, keep getting upset. I like your frustration. It means I hit a nerve. Why exactly would I have this confirmation bias? I don't seem to remember going after you at all before that.

Anyway, I'm done arguing the point. I made my point, you've defended it and then voted me for it which is quite funny in and of itself.

[House Dondarrion]

The latter three because they're participating but they're still under radar (in case of Smurf and Happy I still fell they tried to misunderstand me deliberatly).

Has anyone thoughts about Smurf?

As far as smurf goes, my impression of him is generally favourable. You're probably right that his worst passage of play was the exchange between you, him, and Happy though to be perfectly frank all three of you seemed to have been determined to exaggerate, distort, misunderstand or misrepresent each other as much as possible to score cheap debating points. I rate Smurf about the same as a I rate you actually, not especially suspicious but worth keeping an eye on.

[House Clegane]

This is the biggest load of middle of the road nonsense I've ever seen. If I've explained what I meant about strong opinions "nicely" then doesn't that mean that it shouldn't be strange to you anymore? And if the explanation was weaselly then it definitely wasn't nice. I'd much rather you made your dislike of what I've said plain rather than sandwiching a passive-aggressive sideways swipe into a sentence which can't decide whether it's being positive or negative to begin with.

If you say you went Christmas shopping then you went Christmas shopping. You can't expect me to have known that prior to returning to tell me so, however.

And your conclusion, "generally innocent" but ringing vague alarm bells for trying to hard, is again wishy washy. But do keep watching me. Consider me satisfactorily forewarned.

Bu 'nicely' I meant eloquently, neatly, and yes, a bit weasally. I didn't mean convincingly or in-a-way-likely-to-make-me-less-suspicious-of-you-ly.

Nor is it passive-aggressive (I don't, and never have, understood what this means anyway, so I suppose maybe it is?) If you can't decide whether it's positive or negative then don't worry about it, nor can i, i'm just recording my thoughts.

[House Dondarrion]

I guess I was unapologetic, because all i had to be apologetic for was not realising that someone had lied to me - clearly i haven't played mafia for too long and know people who are too trustworthy, but i was then still in the mode of thinking that it's generally the person who lies who apologises (not that i'm suggesting Gimli should apologise - obviously it's a game, i just hadn't subconsciously accepted that at the time I suppose). And I missed the smileys, or at least their significance.

You're either being obtuse or you don't really understand what some of us find so weird about your misunderstanding. Symps don't confess. Well, not unless they are backed into a corner and see it as the only possible choice they can make to save their masters. Even an invincible symp wouldn't confess because he can sew far more chaos if people think he might be innocent. It didn't require smiles to make it clear that Gimli's post was sarcasm. Gimli's post was clearly not serious just based on what it was saying. The fact that you took the confession so matter-of-factly even though finding the symp would be a massive blow for the evils is just another point which seems odd.

Gimli made what was a pretty clear joke, you misunderstood it, in this one exchange lying doesn't come into it.

[House Clegane]

You're either being obtuse or you don't really understand what some of us find so weird about your misunderstanding. Symps don't confess. Well, not unless they are backed into a corner and see it as the only possible choice they can make to save their masters. Even an invincible symp wouldn't confess because he can sew far more chaos if people think he might be innocent. It didn't require smiles to make it clear that Gimli's post was sarcasm. Gimli's post was clearly not serious just based on what it was saying. The fact that you took the confession so matter-of-factly even though finding the symp would be a massive blow for the evils is just another point which seems odd.

Gimli made what was a pretty clear joke, you misunderstood it, in this one exchange lying doesn't come into it.

Well, I understand you find it odd, but i don't know what else you expect me to say - i took Gimli's confession at face value. It wasn't clear to me that his post was a joke. Looking back i see why you say it was obvious to you, but i don't know what point you are trying to make just there - you say it was clearly not serious, but it just wasn't clear to me. Trying to understand why it wasn't clear to me I think it's because i hadn't got into the mindset of mafia, where people lying (which if one doesn't get the joke, is exactly what Gimli did) is to be expected.

I don't understand why you say lying doesn't come into it - lying only doesn't come into it if you immediately realise Gimli was joking. If like me you assume Gimli was telling the truth, then the fact that he later implicitly took the confession back meant that he was lying the first time (though obviously he may still be the symp having told the truth for all we know)

Yes I get that symps don't confess. But nor do people pretend to confess terribly often either.

[House Dondarrion]

Well, I understand you find it odd, but i don't know what else you expect me to say - i took Gimli's confession at face value. It wasn't clear to me that his post was a joke. Looking back i see why you say it was obvious to you, but i don't know what point you are trying to make just there - you say it was clearly not serious, but it just wasn't clear to me. Trying to understand why it wasn't clear to me I think it's because i hadn't got into the mindset of mafia, where people lying (which if one doesn't get the joke, is exactly what Gimli did) is to be expected.

I don't understand why you say lying doesn't come into it - lying only doesn't come into it if you immediately realise Gimli was joking. If like me you assume Gimli was telling the truth, then the fact that he later implicitly took the confession back meant that he was lying the first time (though obviously he may still be the symp having told the truth for all we know)

Yes I get that symps don't confess. But nor do people pretend to confess terribly often either.

It was a joke. Lying doesn't come into it because there was no expectation that anyone would believe what he was saying. And you didn't accuse him of lying at the time, you accused him of lying just now, six or whatever pages later when it has been explained to you that it's a joke, and when pretty much everyone has confirmed that that's the way they saw it. Saying that someone lied is a reasonably serious accusation in mafia. It's not a word to be thrown around unless you actually mean that he intended to deceive you.

ETA: Hang on a second, are you saying that at the time, after a couple of people went "WTF you thought that was serious?" your immediate reaction wasn't, "Whoops, I've misinterpreted a joke", but "now Gimli's saying he isn't a symp, I've been lied to"? Not being in the mindset of being lied to isn't relevant because you weren't lied to, you misunderstood a joke and your very next post indicated that your first thought was sarcasm not deception. At what point did you believe Gimli was lying, and is that still what you're saying?

[House Dondarrion]

I'm not going to get the reread I was hoping to do finished. I have to go now, I'll be back before lynch.

ETA: Vote stays on Tyrion. I wouldn't be sad to see it swing to Durin, but I think Alberich might even by favourite alternative at this point.

[House Stokeworth]

I took a long nap. :)

Instead of continuing my quote-by-quote analysis of the thread (it helps me keep track of what's going on, but I have a sinking feeling that no one actually read my big post above), I'll just cut to my general impressions.

Bashful, question. What changed between this:

I think it's a rather good sign that Durin is willing to pressure more than one player. That's why I also disagree with his theory that a player is less likely guilty because of sticking to pressure one player. FM sometimes prefer to focus their attention to one "victim" only to appear as if they were contributing. In this special setup it even makes moe sense to do so. Yes, it's possible that you might end up lynching your own team mate, but it's an acceptable risk. After all, the evil guys have to do something other than RP and middle-of-the-road spam.

and this:

What I can say so far is that I'm torn between voting Durin or Gimli. Durin's contradiction is weird, and his explanation is even more so. I am that fascinated that he is apparently reasoning about everything he is posting in this thread. I mean, it's only day 1 and as an innocent without a clue you usuallly post some stuff without thinking through very detail. That's what FM or symps do, especially when they don't know each other.

...And now I'm going to say something that will make me sound completely crazy. I'm seriously worried about Bashful, although I'm having trouble articulating just why. Has anyone noticed something strange about him? He seems to agree with virtually everyone and stay very friendly and agreeable. He's continuing the trend he started early on by saying he agreed with both Gimli and Tyrion. Overall, his points have been kind of wishy-washy and inane--although maybe I'm biased because I've disagreed with virtually everything he's said all game. But other than his OMGUS vote on Happy, I don't think he's ever seriously attacked another player.

The overall impression I'm getting is that he's deliberately holding back and trying not to make enemies. Bashful, I'm getting the impression you're either limiting yourself to "wishy-washy spam" (as you put it) in order to avoid lynching your masters, trying to send as many "symp clues" (since you apparently like them) as possible to any potential masters, staying suspicious and wishy-washy so that they don't NK you, or just fed up with a crappy role. I'm starting to wonder if he's Santa. His play reminds me of a more intelligent version of a couple of the zombies in the zombie game.

Anyway, my preferences for a lynch would be Tyrion or Bashful--I'd vote Durin because his arguments have been pretty bad, but Durin has made a few genuine-sounding comments, and the first two worry me much more. I refuse to vote Gimli based on a symp clue. I question the sanity of anyone voting Sleeppy, because I feel as though we're reading different threads. Seriously. His innocence is blinding.

Since half of my case on Bashful is based on gut, I'll vote for Tyrion. Going to make myself a coffee and then address his defence now.

[House Mooton]

I'm the symp.

Hahaha, just kidding!

(No really, FM...don't kill me)

Lol, no need to worry, everyone, just a pointless harmless joke. :D

But seriously, I am.

Or am I?

No, of course not!

;)

:ninja:

:dunno:

[House Connington]

I'm the symp.

Hahaha, just kidding!

(No really, FM...don't kill me)

Lol, no need to worry, everyone, just a pointless harmless joke. :D

But seriously, I am.

Or am I?

No, of course not!

;)

:ninja:

:dunno:

...

I hate you. :stillsick:

[House Stokeworth]

Seriously, Grummpy, if you're innocent and really think this is such a funny move, after everyone has wasted hours bickering over whether a symp would really reveal just in order to leave a clue to his masters, then what do I think about this reveal? Oh, I know! Two words.

Fuck.

YOU.

No, maybe that's not strong enough. Three words. Fucking fuck you. You are not funny. You are being a selfish asshole, and you are ruining the game.

I'm going to assume, however, that the only reason you'd pull a stunt like this is because you're worried about a NK, so you're trying to plant a seed of doubt in the back of the killers' minds. Because Santa helps his faction more by being lynched than being night-killed--particularly by being lynched in the most distracting way possible. And since he doesn't know his masters, letting his powers transfer to an innocent isn't the end of the world. Besides, you could always try to WIFOM out of a lynch, but the FM will be forever reluctant to kill you. So we can't let you get away with something like this.

And Tyrion looks so guilty, too. If you're innocent, I won't forgive you for this.

Grummpy

[House Velaryon]

I'm the symp.

Hahaha, just kidding!

(No really, FM...don't kill me)

Lol, no need to worry, everyone, just a pointless harmless joke. :D

But seriously, I am.

Or am I?

No, of course not!

;)

:ninja:

:dunno:

That really wasn't funny or helpful.

Grummpy

[House Stokeworth]

Gimli, I'm curious. If your post wasn't a symp clue, then why did you say it? Did you try to be funny, and if that's the case then why didn't you worry about causing confusion. If you're innocent, stuff like that always leads to problems and is best avoided.

The irony.

So Sneezy, since it turns out you're reading the thread, what are your thoughts on Tyrion and Bashful? Do you have any other opinions?

[House Mooton]

Seriously, Grummpy, if you're innocent and really think this is such a funny move, after everyone has wasted hours bickering over whether a symp would really reveal just in order to leave a clue to his masters, then what do I think about this reveal? Oh, I know! Two words.

Fuck.

YOU.

No, maybe that's not strong enough. Three words. Fucking fuck you. You are not funny. You are being a selfish asshole, and you are ruining the game.

I'm going to assume, however, that the only reason you'd pull a stunt like this is because you're worried about a NK, so you're trying to plant a seed of doubt in the back of the killers' minds. Because Santa helps his faction more by being lynched than being night-killed--particularly by being lynched in the most distracting way possible. And since he doesn't know his masters, letting his powers transfer to an innocent isn't the end of the world. Besides, you could always try to WIFOM out of a lynch, but the FM will be forever reluctant to kill you. So we can't let you get away with something like this.

And Tyrion looks so guilty, too. If you're innocent, I won't forgive you for this.

Grummpy

I'm not trying to be funny. I'm trying to show you just how dense you are being. Your statement of "I will never believe symp clues because they just couldn't possibly be true" is blind and idiotic.

So I boiled Gimli's early posts down for you, and your vote proves my point - you can't possibly read that back and forth and fail to see why Gimli is suspicious.

In my case, I'm innocent. You're questioning that now, and that is fine with me. The point is, you should be questioning it about Gimli too. And at least my statement had a reason for it; his was entirely pointless, if he's innocent.*

*ETA - Oh, except for his attempt to trap the FM. :rolleyes:

[House Mooton]

That really wasn't funny or helpful.

Grummpy

Is that your 2nd post of the game? Kind of funny that you would accuse anybody else of not being helpful.

So have you been lurking this whole time? You are obviously caught up on some of the events in the thread.

[House Mooton]

Again, either you haven't read the exchange properly, or my memory is tricking me, but my comment comes after he voted for me. He voted for me when I posted a sarcastic confession. So no, not surprised by the fact that someone caught onto it, a little surprised that it was so easy for them to do so, but majorly surprised that someone would think that a confession in the RP stage is a de facto sign of guilt.

I'd kill for people to be able to understand my posts the way I intended them to be understood. :ohwell:

I understand your explanation. I just didn't read it that way. It's a really minor point anyway, so I'm not sure why you are so concerned about it.

To me, the bigger points against you are the symp clue itself, the issue Doc is hammering away at you about (you being slow to cast your vote for a suspect), and your current level of frustration (I feel like you're overreacting).

Side note: while I do think Doc is making good points against you, I'm also going to look into him, because I can't remember him saying anything else. If that's true, it's suspicious - he could be the FM who picks an easy target and just focuses on him all day.

I am also now seeing why people dislike Durin, but I'm not sure I agree with the arguments against him. Doubt I would vote for him today.

Can you explain this better? Why don't you find his contradiction suspicious?

I didn't know we were alowed to discuss earlier games, however this game ius different in that the FM and symp are looking for eachother.

I don't think that's relevant. You made a point that you thought Tyrion wasn't suspicious because he was focused on one target, and I responded that FM have done that in the past. Game setup doesn't change that.

I really wish I had made myself clearer. Yes, I said Tyrion seemed less suspicious because he was focused on one target with a valid reason. Sleeppy was also focused on one target, but his reasoning was suspicious to me. That was my feeling, I worded it poorly, I hope it doesn't get me lynched.

You're right, that wasn't clear at all. So follow up on this. Why do you feel that it's a sign of innocence to focus on one target at the start of the game, even with a valid reason?

I growing really tired of having to explain the meaning of posts that seem perfectly clear to me. Maybe I'm not being as clear as I thought I was, but the paranoid part of me is seeing a massive FM conspiracy to misrepresent me. :uhoh:

As for the whole symp thing, I believe I have explained myself, and if people don't particularly like my explanation, then tough. I'm fed up of explaining myself, and I'm getting fed up of defending myself from stuff, to the point where I'm actually struggling to coherently think about the other goings on on this thread.

Believe me, don't, to be quite honest I don't particularly care at the moment.

I feel like you (Sleepy and Gimli) are both being overdefensive. At least Gimli has some reason, because he might be lynched, but Sleepy's frustration is perplexing.

Sorry if you felt I was attacking you. I voted you because of your possible link to Gimli. Your response made you suspicious to me running on the theory that he was a symp looking for a response and you provided one. I thought the days were shorter and wanted to make sure I had a vote in place that could go somewhere.

I hate when people get all apologetic. You look nervous and eager for a friend, Durin.

Doc

:bang: :bang: :bang:

Is your only point against Doc that he is, in your opinion, twisting your words?

I'm not going to get the reread I was hoping to do finished. I have to go now, I'll be back before lynch.

ETA: Vote stays on Tyrion. I wouldn't be sad to see it swing to Durin, but I think Alberich might even by favourite alternative at this point.

Similar question to you about Alberich - is your main case against him that you don't like the way he attacked you? Or is there more to it?

Also, who else do you suspect?

[House Tully]

When comparing Durin's and Gimli's recent posts, I like Gimli's reactions better. He sounds genuine in his frustration and it sounds a lot more like an innocent's frustration to me.

Durin OTOH sounds like someone who tries to get himself out of the spotlight by trying to appease his accusers.

Vote Durin

In order to get a lynch, I'm willing to switch to Gimli. Or Sneezy - I also think that he might be lurking out there to avoid attention.