AGoT Mafia 71 - Rebellion in Hell

[House Clegane]

We just passed the deadline. Where the hell were you?

I had a lot to read, and didn't realise how little time was left. I was kind of lucky that I checked back when I did, I could easily have passed it by completely. Doesn't look like it would have mattered in the end anyway.

[House Targaryen]

It is day 1.

15 players remain: Asmodeus, Astaroth, Azalel, Baphomet, Beelzebub, Belial, Belphegor, Berith, Lady GaGa, Leviathan, Lucifer, Mammon, Mastema, Mephistopheles, Sammael.

8 votes are needed for a conviction or to go to night.

7 votes for Azalel (Belphegor, Berith, Baphomet, Asmodeus, Belial, Leviathan, Sammael)

4 votes for Leviathan (Beelzebub, Azalel, Lucifer, Astaroth)

2 votes for Astaroth (Mastema, Lady GaGa)

1 vote for Beelzebub (Mammon)

1 vote for Lady GaGa (Mephistopheles)

The day was passing as usual, demons talking about sex, heavily drinking and making bad puns about each other's names, looks and sexual affiliation.

Then Beelzebub kindly pointed out that if they continued in that manner, they were all very likely to die in terrible agony.

This made demons reconsider things and/or throw sharp objects/votes at Beelzebub's tentacles.

Leviathan was afterwards accused of throwing the ugliest sharp object, and almost voted out to represent Hell in the next Miss Serpent Universe die in terrible agony.

Then Belphegor came and decided he didn't quite like Azazel's personification, which seemed quite artificial to him. The sound of his mad laughter as Azalel was gathering votes irritated hungover Satan passing by, who in turn transformed him into a small white kitty, which somehow managed to look even more intimidating than the original demon.

In the end, all the demons got sufficiently drunk/drugged/sexually exhausted/rickrolled not to be able to actually make a vote.

Satan sat quiet and enraged on his throne, concluding he would have probably been better off as a Major of Amsterdam or something like that.

No-one was lynched. It is now night. Send in your PMs.

[House Stokeworth]

I had a lot to read, and didn't realise how little time was left. I was kind of lucky that I checked back when I did, I could easily have passed it by completely. Doesn't look like it would have mattered in the end anyway.

I don't mean to sound condescending or anything, but if people are rereading near the end of the day it's a good idea to check exactly when the day ends first. It also doesn't hurt to have the current page of the game open in a separate tab and check on it every so often. Apparently your vote counted so in this case you're only guilty of increasing my blood pressure. :P

[House Dondarrion]

My apologies on missing the end of Day 1. Today apparently Hell has frozen over. I've read up to page 8 and will try to catch up with a couple of beers. I know I've entirely missed today.

[House Stokeworth]

(By the way, Belial, what are you current thoughts on Baphomet? I dif notice you seem to go back and forth on him a lot. You also waver a lot on the validity of symp clues.)

Since I'm here and night seems like it will go on a bit I thought I'd answer this.

I'm pretty much neutral on Baphomet at the moment and that's been my feeling all day. I wasn't noting that Lucifer was off the list because it was necessarily suspicious by itself, but more because it's better to note these things as we see them than to try and find them on day four when the game is over a thousand posts long.

I don't think I've wavered at all on symp clues. I think that people don't use symp clues in the modern game and I think the reason people don't use them is that we tend to jump on anything that looks like one. I know it sounds a little contradictory, but I therefore think that noting symp clues is valuable even if it's unlikely that there's anything there. Someone mentioned that the order of the list might be important and then we'd never know. But while we wouldn't be able to find the master, we've still spotted the potential clue and Bapho has come under first because of it.

Therefore, if the list is suspicious, it is suspicious more as a deliberate distraction than as an actual clue. I don't think any of that is really contradictory or flip-floppy.

[House Clegane]

OK, here's a smattering of posts that caught my eye:

Has anyone considered the possibility that we don't have a symp? Either we have 2 FM / 1 symp or 3 FM without a symp. First option would be ok for the innocents but puts the FM at an disadvantage. The second option would be ok for the FM but would make the innocents job very hard. I don't want to discuss this in detail, since a lot of the balancing depends on the roles (and we don't want to give the FM more infos than needed), but I wouldn't put all my money on a symp being part of this game. That's why I won't be impressed by any case that is based solely on symp clues.

This sticks out quite a bit - role distribution talk all the way back on Page 6. There wasn't any before, and there hasn't been any since. As others have since pointed out, it does feel a bit like he's fishing, especially the bit about not giving anything away to the killers - that seems gratuitous given the point he's trying to make, almost as if he added it on a whim. And if he were an FM trying to root out a symp, then it would seem a bit whimsical.

I just went back to look at the lowest posters, was going to give Mammon a piece of my mind when I noticed (I think) that he's only a few minutes off being modkilled. Anyone want to double-check that? (His last post is post 33)

Berith has said nothing of note.

And it's high time Mastema came back to answer Belial's accusation.

I'm always suspicious of people who keep an eye on modkill timers, even if they claim it's by happenstance. What good reason does an inno have for raising this point? You ignore this sort of thing and let the Mod deal with it, hoping that he doesn't before the player shows up again. I know from experience that it's an easy thing to overlook when you're running a game. Only scum have an interest in seeing a modkill happen.

Wholeheartedly support this. Rules are rules, but modkilling a player who is around and posts is just out of spirit.

Mammon, hope you won't betray our expectations.

This is very fishy. It's like he has decided he needs to say something about this and then come up with a few pleasantries to suit. That urge to comment, the need to have one's say, is something I tend to associate with scum - trying to blend in, they look for talking points that they can safely express an opinion on. This seems to fit the bill perfectly.

And what is it about Mammon's post that you like? Be specific. It's useless to just throw that comment out there without any justification.

Does anybody else dislike Azazel? Yeah, I know somebody criticized turning a joke vote into a serious vote earlier, but I don't care, that's what I'm doing.

My irony meter just went through the roof...

And in general, I'm always a bit wary of people trying to canvas opinion with questions like that. I know it was starting to get close to lynch time, and manufacturing a lynch becomes a bit more of a priority, but feeling out sentiments towards your chosen cause is a key tool in anyone's armoury if they're looking to swing a lynch.

Do you guys think that was a bit of a weird post by Belphegor there? :P

You'll have to excuse me if I retire without any further analysis, but the aforementioned drinking has taken its toll. Could barely concentrate through that readthrough...

I will say though, that the way the train seemed to swing wildly from Leviathan to Azazel in the latter part of the day did seem a bit odd. My initial impression was that it was masterminded (if any masterminding was going on) by Belphegor and Bathomet. More sober attention is probably required however, so I bid you goodnight!

[House Targaryen]

I can't wait any more, I'm going to sleep. I'll set my alarm to go off in 4 hours, ut that's no guarantee I'll actually be able of waking up.

-_-

[House Redfort]

Oh. My. God.

:bang:^∞

Seriously. I didn't even like the Azazel lynch, and that was beyond pathetic. Would you believe that at the time I cast my vote for Leviathan, I was actually worried that it would end the day too early because so many people were willing to vote him?

Did we just lose a lynch, or does odd-even not apply when there are two killing factions?

You know what I've learned today? (Well, other than that some people are incompetent.) That this is why mods should never use several alts that start with the same letter.

[House Dayne]

Oh. My. God.

:bang:^∞

Seriously. I didn't even like the Azazel lynch, and that was beyond pathetic.

The only reason why the end of day was "pathetic" is because people like you couldn't deign to actually show up for the last few hours.

[House Redfort]

Okay, not to be an asshole, but it's not exactly like I can call in sick to work every time I'm scheduled during a lynch. I gave you plenty of warning that I wouldn't be around for the deadline. As it is, I'm squeezing every last free minute I have into catching up, and I'm forcing myself to reread the thread now and waste hours writing cases even though I can barely keep my eyes open now. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of not making an effort.

For what it's worth, though, I wasn't talking about you when I said people were "incompetent."

[House Dayne]

Okay, not to be an asshole, but it's not exactly like I can call in sick to work every time I'm scheduled during a lynch. I gave you plenty of warning that I wouldn't be around for the deadline. As it is, I'm squeezing every last free minute I have into catching up, and I'm forcing myself to reread the thread now and waste hours writing cases even though I can barely keep my eyes open now. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of not making an effort.

Okay fine, I forgive you. :P

[House Stokeworth]

Okay, not to be an asshole, but it's not exactly like I can call in sick to work every time I'm scheduled during a lynch. I gave you plenty of warning that I wouldn't be around for the deadline. As it is, I'm squeezing every last free minute I have into catching up, and I'm forcing myself to reread the thread now and waste hours writing cases even though I can barely keep my eyes open now. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of not making an effort.

For what it's worth, though, I wasn't talking about you when I said people were "incompetent."

As long as we've got some time and we're kicking this around I think Belph is basically correct. Not in blaming you for not being here but in saying that having four people online at the end of the day would make most lynches impossible especially when one of those people has already voted and another is one of the lynchees. I assume the incompetence you're talking about is Lady G's apparent misvote. I did have a bit of a flick through the end of the day to see if anyone could be said to have intentionally made the lynch difficult. Meph left saying that he felt his vote wouldn't be more useful elsewhere, but that really only looks bad in hindsight. Bapho pushed hard for the alternate lynch and split the vote, without which Lev probably would have been lynched, but I don't think it was an unreasonable thing to do. And all of the people not voting for one of the top two were the low posters who haven't been around, which is a problem but happened too early to be a deliberate attempt to cause us not to lynch. In the end we didn't lynch because not enough people were here to move their votes to where they needed to be. Prior to the last couple of hours things were looking pretty healthy.

I have a couple of thoughts on people who might have been up to no good during the lynch. But I think I'll save those for morning.

[House Corbray]

I woke up for a p*** and couldn't resist to skim the thread. Before I return to bed I have to say this:

And what is it about Mammon's post that you like? Be specific. It's useless to just throw that comment out there without any justification.

Does anybody else dislike Azazel? Yeah, I know somebody criticized turning a joke vote into a serious vote earlier, but I don't care, that's what I'm doing.

Ok my friend, THAT is your case that makes you hunting me through hell and back? I hope you better have a good explanation for this weird behavior, otherwise day 2 will be a very uncomfortable one for you. Either you're a badly tunnelvisioned FM, or you tried to protect Leviathan.

[House Dayne]

Ok my friend, THAT is your case that makes you hunting me through hell and back? I hope you better have a good explanation for this weird behavior, otherwise day 2 will be a very uncomfortable one for you. Either you're a badly tunnelvisioned FM, or you tried to protect Leviathan.

Bring it. Just remember - you mess with the bull, you get the horns. :devil:

[House Stokeworth]

I guess Satan's alarm clock is ineffective. What kind of hell is this anyway that lets people sleep?

[House Redfort]

Sweet, I have the forgiveness of Hello Kitty, the Prince of Darkness himself. :smug:

*rereads thread*

Whoa.

Read Asmodeus in isolation. Try to find a single instance in which he makes an accusation against...well, anyone. He makes a lot of safe comments about optimal killer strategy, but offers none of his suspicions. The only people he says anything vaguely negative about are 1) Mephistopheles, and 2) Leviathan.

Meanwhile, he doesn't mention Azazel at all, other than to point out that Lady GaGa is voting for the wrong player. By the way, I dislike how he felt the need to call the vote "odd" without explaining just why it was odd, and what it said about Lady GaGa's alignment. Bringing up a random point like that, but not explaining it or following through, is a huge scumtell. It's a backhanded and lazy way of planting a seed of doubt against someone and enabling a lynch without getting your hands dirty.

But then he jumps on the Azazel lynch with no explanation. Now, this isn't conclusive, but notice the vote count at the time.

5 votes for Leviathan (Sammael, Beelzebub, Azalel, Lucifer, Astaroth)

3 votes for Azalel (Belphegor, Berith, Baphomet)

2 votes for Astaroth (Mastema, Lady GaGa)

2 votes for Lady GaGa (Asmodeus, Mephistopheles)

1 vote for Beelzebub (Mammon)

1 vote for Belial (Leviathan)

1 vote for Mastema (Belial)

Leviathan (aka Asmodeus's top suspect) was the leading lynch option with five votes. Azazel was the second, with three. By voting Azazel, he made Azazel and Leviathan neck in neck in the vote count. I don't like making cases based on links before we have at least one flip, but if one of Leviathan or Asmodeus turns up guilty, I'd suggest we put the other through the Spanish Inquisition.

Becuase I have to leave soon and Leviathan was the only viable lynch at the time. I was never really sold on the Leviathan lynch. When I saw that Azazel was an option, I placed my vote. I am aware that I have been less then adequate *ahem* at expressing my thoughts today, so I can see how you would be suspicious.

I call bullshit on this one. He doesn't once explain just why he wasn't sold on the Leviathan lynch, or why he suspected Azazel. It's a lazy cop-out answer. "Oh, I...um, just suspected him."

Also, considering that he fits Cerwyn's Bible to a T, I find this wishy-washy quote on Cerwyn's Bible very suspicious:

We can't treat the Cerwyn Bible as word of god in this game because the SK has no fear of being night killed. It would only apply to the FM's actions. Also, where does it state that a FM wouldn't start a case?

From the Mafia Wiki:

I just don't see how this excludes Leviathan at all. Besides isn't the evils doing something unexpected how they win most games? ;)

I know I made the same argument that making a bad case does not exempt one from CB, but quoting the exact wording of CB to prove that it doesn't say anything about the NKs just reads as overly technical filler. He also tries to lead us away from the hypothesis that the killers would follow CB--again, self-serving, when he fits CB so well.

At this point, I suspect Asmodeus more than Leviathan.

(I know I shouldn't make cases during the night, but this is the only time I have to watch the thread. Great news. Guess what. I won't be around all day tomorrow until evening. And only for snippets at a time on Sunday. Aren't you all happy to hear that? TBH, it was not a smart idea for me to sign up for this one, but I really wanted to play in an SK game.)

[House Targaryen]

Some Mafia games would open a morning scene talking about fear and anxiety that make players' sleep tortured and barely possible. This is not one of them. A drunken, lazy bunch, demons slept like dead, which some of them really were (I bet you didn't see that one coming), and although some of their dreams would make a human wake up immediately and commit instant suicide, they were basically happy dreams.

However, such a heart-breaking and peaceful picture had to be eventually broken. It all started with Belial waking up, only to find a plate of sausages miraculously appeared by his side. Having never played Mafia before, he went for it, having eaten the whole plate before realising he should really eat the sausages it was probably one of his colleagues that was eaten, as there were definitely no sausages yesterday. He remembered that, if not many other things, because he personally protested before Satan and avoided being turned into a kitten too only by sheer luck. Being a demon and all, digestation of another human demon being wasn't particulary worrisome or repulsive to him, which means it probably won't be to the person reading this either. Which means we have a problem.

So, let's solve it.

As the others start to wake up, and get sober enough to count, you realise there are two of you missing. After a seemingly clever and fast (but in reality vaguely correct only by incredible luck) calculation by Mammon, who concluded that the amount of sauseges eaten by Belial is not equal to 2 average adult demons, you spread to search the vast neighbouring chamber, currently used for beer storage. Soon, a scream only a demon could make, makes you all hurry down towards it, down a particular isle.

There, chained to the wall, is a body of a demon. It's damn near impossible to say which one, as the corpse has no skin, or a lot of flesh for that matter. Blood has mostly run down, creating a giant puddle on the floor, which only makes the sight visible to you twice. The pieces of remaining muscle are already pale, and the others are missing; but there are still places where you can see hordes of demonic ants chopping off tiny pieces of it, just like they did with his still living skin. You can almost hear them chew, tiny black pieces among pink, brown, and white of the bones visible. You start there startled and disgusted as the said demon starts to slowly raise his head. It's when you see his remaining eye (as the only thing left of the other is a socket swarming with ants) though, when you get really afraid. It looks at you for just a second, but such combination of brutal pain, probable madness and sheer hopelessness is something bound to cut deep into your memory and torture your dreams for eternity.

After a moment that seemed to go on for eternity, his eye explodes as the ants start to chew on it, splashing transparent liquid in the pool of blood beneath. His head falls down, and you know he's finally dead. Haunted by the scene, you return to the main chamber, while your incoherent thoughts storm to the conclusion - the game is over, time to start lynching.

Lucifer and Sammael were killed. They were both innocent.

It is day 2.

13 players remain: Asmodeus, Astaroth, Azalel, Baphomet, Beelzebub, Belial, Belphegor, Berith, Lady GaGa, Leviathan, Mammon, Mastema, Mephistopheles.

7 votes are needed for a conviction or to go to night.

13 players have not voted: Asmodeus, Astaroth, Azalel, Baphomet, Beelzebub, Belial, Belphegor, Berith, Lady GaGa, Leviathan, Mammon, Mastema, Mephistopheles.

[House Redfort]

This is terrible news!

It's almost four-thirty in the morning here, and I have to leave the house at seven-thirty. I finally finished that huge post I promised Lucifer ages ago explaining my problems with him. I was ready to post it, hit Preview...and then saw that all that work was for nothing and I could have gone to bed an hour ago.

Oh, right. And two innocents were killed. That's bad, too. :P

I'll save it on the off chance someone is interested in knowing why I thought Azazel came off better than Lucifer in their exchange (since that's a rather controversial point of view).

I have thoughts on the nightkills, but I think it'll be more informative to see what everyone else has to say, first.

[House Stokeworth]

Lucifer and Sammael were killed. They were both innocent.

That was somewhat unexpected. Sammy especially. I was all ready to go after him for his apparent protection of Lev during the lynch yesterday. I feel the wind has quite been knocked from my sails.

[House Corbray]

Bring it. Just remember - you mess with the bull, you get the horns. :devil:

So this is your explanation that I asked for? :rolleyes:

IIRC you voted me because I didn't back up my positive feelings for Mammon with a quote and me being not concrete enough. However, my impression after skimming the thread is that you did exactly the same. You didn't back up your case, you didn't even HAVE a case. Still you thought your suspicion was strong enough to push my lynch and to ignore all other options.

The point is that your course of actions makes no sense. Well, it makes sense if your goal was to prevent a Leviathan lynch, of course. You knew that some players had stated their suspicion of me, so it was likely that others would follow you even without making a halfway logical case. You and Levi aren't friends per chance?

Now I'm going to make a more detailed reread.