Sexism in ASOIAF?

[Alexia]

"What are you doing" might not be a death sentence to a seven years old. However, it was a surprise at the action of a man who saved a boy from falling. Not most kind reaction, I would say, but a very genuine one.

But she said it to Bran, not Jaime. She was bracing herself to start intimidating him; what else was she going to say to him? Look, Cersei is undoubtedly an evil woman but doesn't she do enough bad things on her own without attributing the evil acts of others, evil acts of which she immediately made her disapproval known, to her? It is made painfully plain that throwing Bran out the window was not her idea and she did not approve.

This is a great example of the thread title, incidentally. Because Jaime feels guilty over a few things in life, people attempt to white wash him of EVERYTHING right up to blaming Cersei for the single worst action he undertook...an action she expressly disapproved of. Jaime is the one who nastily tells Catelyn that he threw her precious urchin out a window and somehow Cersei is to blame?

[Dreadwolf]

I would however say that - initial point of Aubrem, and 3idcrow was to simply illustrate that Cersei is downright evil since the very beginning of our narrating. Which I think we both agree no matter how more sympathetic she could have been for some of us in AGOT, ACOK and ASOS versus AFFC.

Now if she got changed (out of misery, war, harsh circumstances, her sweetest first born son and mighty father-protector got killed and his handsome lover, being also her second ego to some extent had abandoned her) or she had got all that (nasty) bits in her as from the very beginning is quite another discussion.

Apart from all that – the fact that no one can (rightfully) blame anyone else for his own actions and decisions is absolutely valid. It may be a false-justification only for a really weak and whinnying person.

The same goes with Jorah/ Lynesse Hightower.

This is a great example of the thread title, incidentally.

Now I think this is a great example of something else IMHO.

Title urges to a discussion about Sexism in ASOIAF. (It is somehow a directing message rather that a rhetorical line). Irrespective of whether one agrees or disagrees with the title passing remark, it (the thread title) still points out onto the book(s) and the writer.

How individual readers perceive the reading is quite another thing I think. The Author made us muse and re-consider. Here he succeeded a lot we cannot deny.

It may haps in a debate that someone say something wrong or even she/ he never thinks it in earnest. I believe that even some may post opinions in contradiction with her/ his own believs - out of desire for some fun and sport. But it has nothing to do wuth the author.

Again I could read the title (and its implication) wrong...

If this is the case just ignore all that above.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

Tossing Bran from the tower may have been what Jaime thought Cersei would have wanted, (and if her attempts to intimidate him into silence had failed, she might have expressed that desire explicitly) but it was all Jaime.

It's not like Cersei doesn't have enough things to answer for, but Bran's flying lesson isn't really one of them.

I find it interesting (or disturbing, I haven't decided which yet) that when I started to read AGoT, I hated Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion with a passion. When Tyrion's first POV chapters occured, I started to reconsider his character, but still loathed Jaime and Cersei. When Jaime started to have his own POV chapters, I (again) started to enjoy his character, but still hated Cersei. When Cersei started having her POV chapters, it did nothing for my opinion of her character (except to make me dislike her even more)

I really don't know why this is. GRRM tends to write a POV character pretty (from their own POV) sympathetically, which makes sense given who's telling that part of the story, but Cersei's chapters only serve to further englarge her as an "evil" character (at least IMO). Given that understanding, I would have to say that yes, the way GRRM writes her character at least, it's pretty sexist. Why should her POV chapters only do more to make her an unsympathetic character, when every other POV chapter should serve to "justify" other characters? Cersei doesn't do or think about much in her POV chapters that helps alleviate the dislike that a reader (at least, myself) have built up for her prior to that point, and her character is actually pretty stagnant when it comes to "realization" of her own flaws.

Don't get me wrong, Jaime was still a douche for tossing Bran from the tower in addition to all the other stuff he did prior to that, but at least he made me laugh with some of his dialogue, and is apparently showing a change in his character from what we first saw of him. Cersei just goes from spiteful and conniving in her non-POV chapters, to spiteful, conniving and incompetent in her POV chapters. Its hardly equal treatment when you consider it that way.

[Dreadwolf]

I would have to say that yes, the way GRRM writes her character at least, it's pretty sexist.

I find it strange.

IMO making generalization about Art on the basis of our commitment and even those of the writer WRT characters is an approach that contains inherent vice.

There is a great variety of readers’ partialities to some or other Character in the story.

Even if the great majority of the readers would have hated Sansa (which I think is not true) - that had not meant that author had written her character in a sexist way IMHO.

Regarding PoV in ASOIAF - my most hatred ever guy is Theon. While I think Cersei is evil and bad mother and even though I mainly blame for that her father and childhood, the fact she was a kind of political hostage for keeping peace in the realm and also her sibling (which more or less goes for Theon too safe for he had never had an abusive spouse) I still find him worst and disgusting. If I look for some rational explanation that could be the fact that Cersei at least was less selfish and I believe she would do many things maybe even a dear sacrifice for her children.

Also I am not convinced that having or not having a PoV influences our attitude so much.

I for one definitely think that Tywin is a villain on a much greater scale than Cersei.

We have also some rather distasteful Prologue PoV-s. I don*t think someone would like Chet from ASOS, being the most conspicuous case.

Another example (also irrelevant as per my standards above) would be that I started to like very much Brienne after she got her PoV. In the same time some readers find her chapters boring and waste of time. What has it to do with the sex?

[Miriel]

I find it interesting (or disturbing, I haven't decided which yet) that when I started to read AGoT, I hated Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion with a passion. When Tyrion's first POV chapters occured, I started to reconsider his character, but still loathed Jaime and Cersei. When Jaime started to have his own POV chapters, I (again) started to enjoy his character, but still hated Cersei. When Cersei started having her POV chapters, it did nothing for my opinion of her character (except to make me dislike her even more)

This! Me too. I actually liked Cersei more before I read her POV. Now I just hate her. Before Feast, she was interesting. Now she is just a bitch. But (as I've said elsewhere--probably in this thread) I don't think it is sexism, because he does other female characters differently and completely draws their characters. I think instead it is meant to illustrate her descent into madness/paranoia.

Sad really.

Also, note that Cersei does feel guilty a little bit at times. For example, she feels guilty over Senelle down there screaming in the cold cells. But she is super quick to put it out of her mind and not think about it any longer. That's the difference between Cersei and Jaime--he accepts his flaws and looks at them straight on--there are numerous examples in his POV where he sees his own shortcomings and does not flinch from them. Cersei on the other hand, when faced w/ her shortcomings--places blame on others as fast as she can.

[Alexia]

This! Me too. I actually liked Cersei more before I read her POV. Now I just hate her. Before Feast, she was interesting. Now she is just a bitch.

Me three! I think her POV chapters were the most unsympathetic in the book, even Theon Greyjoy didn't come across so badly in his perspective. And it was really jarring, because I'd built up a lot of sympathy for her character through the first three books and suddenly even her one good point, that strong love for her children, is changed in a really strange way.

I don't think it was sexism either, I think it was the elimination of the five year gap and needing to speed up her downfall. But it really sucks that one of the two main female characters got that kind of treatment in her POV. She was, like her or no, one of the most interesting and important female characters in the series. Now, there's no nuance, there's nothing to even debate about in the AFFC material!

[3idcrow]

This is a great example of the thread title, incidentally. Because Jaime feels guilty over a few things in life, people attempt to white wash him of EVERYTHING right up to blaming Cersei for the single worst action he undertook...an action she expressly disapproved of. Jaime is the one who nastily tells Catelyn that he threw her precious urchin out a window and somehow Cersei is to blame?

I never said that Jaime is not guilty of trying to kill Bran. I hated him for that. On an emotional level I feel it was more evil thing then him killing Aerys, honestly.

But I seriously doubt the motives of Cersei's disapproval of his action. Now, why a woman who ordered killing of two babies for the crime of being her husband's bastards is all over sudden sympathetic to Bran? I just don't buy it. She only raised her opinion when it became clear that Bran may in fact live to tell the tale. This is where her "stupid and dangerous" comes from.

Now, if Cersei is a bitch it doesn't mean that Jaime is not a jerk.

Now, about the title. I think SOIAF has only two pure evil monsters: Gregor and Qyburn. Both of them are male, incidentally. Should men be concerned?.. <_<

[Alexia]

But I seriously doubt the motives of Cersei's disapproval of his action. Now, why a woman who ordered killing of two babies for the crime of being her husband's bastards is all over sudden sympathetic to Bran? I just don't buy it. She only raised her opinion when it became clear that Bran may in fact live to tell the tale.

It's like Ned, 3idcrow. Ned was absolutely horrified by the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon and for Elia's fate and never paused to think about the Sack of KL. Bran is highborn whereas the child (it was only one baby, Gendry was almost a grown man by the standards of her society) was not. She isn't the only one who simply doesn't care about those she considers beneath her. Look at Sandor and his upset over how Sansa was battered and his attempts to intervene - but at the same time, he actively brags about how he likes killing people. Or Raff the Sweetling who smashes in children's faces but at the same time, Jaime likes him and he was shown involved in that duel with the girl in AFFC.

I buy it, although perhaps I'm being naive. This is the big problem with Cersei's portrayal - she is almost a caricature, even in her own perspective. She does a number of things that are downright evil and you've already pointed to some - but on the other hand, she has sympathetic traits that tend to get overlooked.

[Aubrem]

I never said that Jaime is not guilty of trying to kill Bran. I hated him for that. On an emotional level I feel it was more evil thing then him killing Aerys, honestly.

But I seriously doubt the motives of Cersei's disapproval of his action. Now, why a woman who ordered killing of two babies for the crime of being her husband's bastards is all over sudden sympathetic to Bran? I just don't buy it. She only raised her opinion when it became clear that Bran may in fact live to tell the tale. This is where her "stupid and dangerous" comes from.

Now, if Cersei is a bitch it doesn't mean that Jaime is not a jerk.

Now, about the title. I think SOIAF has only two pure evil monsters: Gregor and Qyburn. Both of them are male, incidentally. Should men be concerned?.. <_<

Off-topic, but I think Jaime is a hero for killing Aerys. He did the right thing even though he sacrificed his honor to do it. I suppose there's a whole thread elsewhere that's already discussed this?

[Dreadwolf]

It's like Ned, 3idcrow. Ned was absolutely horrified by the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon and for Elia's fate and never paused to think about the Sack of KL...

The fact that it is not given in his Pov doesn*t make him and other charachres (Lords and Ladies) beliving that their blue blood is much precious than that of the ordinary folks. He did sincerely mourned Jory Casel and his 2 companious. he explained to Bran that if you cannot withstand a man*s gaze perhaps he do not deserve to die w/o making any distinction. (well here my point might be disputable since Robb beheaded on lord Karstark but I think it is a techicality issue in the narrating. Someone provided example with Danny if she were of the first men blood she should have been in a very difficult position once to behead so many people at a time).

Finally I will raise again that point with Bran bending his knee to Theon for the sole reason of protecting smallfolks and all others of Winterfell.

He listened to Maester Luwin and finally did as he though would his lord farther would have done. Ned and Catelyn would be proud of him.

Ironically In the end of the day however WF was sacked and I know some readers blamed Bran for that.

[Miriel]

Off-topic, but I think Jaime is a hero for killing Aerys. He did the right thing even though he sacrificed his honor to do it. I suppose there's a whole thread elsewhere that's already discussed this?

Nah ... he would have been a hero had he offed Aerys the very first time Aerys did some creepy totally out of bounds action (roasting innocents in their own armor, raping and hurting the Queen, etc). Doing it after you have witnessed dozens of those incidents is noteworthy, and it certainly makes him better than your average feudal cog in the wheel, but it doesn't make Jaime a hero.

The whole bear thing with Brienne, now that is another story ...

[Alexia]

The whole bear thing with Brienne, now that is another story ...

Even I, with my strong dislike for Jaime, have to admit that was his shining moment. :)

Yes, butchering a man you were sworn to protect as storm troopers come charging through the doors to seize him doesn't strike me as particularly heroic.

This thread might be what you are looking for, Aubrem.

[3idcrow]

Off-topic, but I think Jaime is a hero for killing Aerys. He did the right thing even though he sacrificed his honor to do it. I suppose there's a whole thread elsewhere that's already discussed this?

There was an awesome thread "Why did Jaime killed Aerys" you might be interested in.

I also share your opinion. There was a Qhorin's phraise, IIRC: "Our honor is only worth as much as our lifes", implying that there are things more important then both life and honor. I think Jaime's killing of Aerys is in line with this sentiment.

[Dreadwolf]

Nah ... he would have been a hero had he offed Aerys the very first time

Hmm. . . give poor boy some slack please.

Some heroes need certain ripening (paraphrasing Tyrion speaking to his sister about his plans to set Jaime free).

Now seriously - Jaime saved KL and its citizen and got no reward neither seeked recognition. And he bears the taint more or less silently.

[nana&crow]

Me three! I think her POV chapters were the most unsympathetic in the book, even Theon Greyjoy didn't come across so badly in his perspective. And it was really jarring, because I'd built up a lot of sympathy for her character through the first three books and suddenly even her one good point, that strong love for her children, is changed in a really strange way.

I don't think it was sexism either, I think it was the elimination of the five year gap and needing to speed up her downfall. But it really sucks that one of the two main female characters got that kind of treatment in her POV. She was, like her or no, one of the most interesting and important female characters in the series. Now, there's no nuance, there's nothing to even debate about in the AFFC material!

in my case I went from sympathy, to hatred, to pity. in the end she is the cat that thought itself a lioness and is torn apart in the game of thrones because she is not to the challenge. she has felt discriminated all her life and has attributed to her being a woman - which is true - but the truth is she has proven she is not much fit to rule (as wasn't her son or Ned for that matter in a very different way).

so I do feel pity for her: her father didn't think much of her, her husband treated her awfully, her firstborn was killed, her lover has deserted her and she does not live up to her own expectations... this is the good thing about GRRM's characters, that they are not black or white, they are very real.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

in my case I went from sympathy, to hatred, to pity. in the end she is the cat that thought itself a lioness and is torn apart in the game of thrones because she is not to the challenge. she has felt discriminated all her life and has attributed to her being a woman - which is true - but the truth is she has proven she is not much fit to rule (as wasn't her son or Ned for that matter in a very different way).

so I do feel pity for her: her father didn't think much of her, her husband treated her awfully, her firstborn was killed, her lover has deserted her and she does not live up to her own expectations... this is the good thing about GRRM's characters, that they are not black or white, they are very real.

I would agree with some of that, but not at all. I haven't reached pity yet for Cersei although I might depending on how things go.

She rejected Jaime, and then he left. The man is proud, and even though he loved her and did horrible things to protect that love, she rejected him when he needed her most. (all handless and feeling worthless...Jaime's hand is really like his penis!! (EUREKA!) He's been completely unmanned with the loss of his hand and is only now starting to get his groove back. (so to speak)

I like breakthroughs. :)

Anyways, I suppose I agree with your assessment of Tywin, although at the end of it all, Cersei was the only one on anything approaching good terms with him. I suppose all of his children were a disappointment for Tywin Lannister in the end. Her husband was a dick, I'll give you that.(although I still like Robert for some reason)

As for Cersei herself, well...yeah she's not as good as all the hype.

BIG OVERTURE

little finish

[Aubrem]

I would agree with some of that, but not at all. I haven't reached pity yet for Cersei although I might depending on how things go.

She rejected Jaime, and then he left. The man is proud, and even though he loved her and did horrible things to protect that love, she rejected him when he needed her most. (all handless and feeling worthless...Jaime's hand is really like his penis!! (EUREKA!) He's been completely unmanned with the loss of his hand and is only now starting to get his groove back. (so to speak)

I like breakthroughs. :)

Anyways, I suppose I agree with your assessment of Tywin, although at the end of it all, Cersei was the only one on anything approaching good terms with him. I suppose all of his children were a disappointment for Tywin Lannister in the end. Her husband was a dick, I'll give you that.(although I still like Robert for some reason)

As for Cersei herself, well...yeah she's not as good as all the hype.

BIG OVERTURE

little finish

Yes, hand/sword = penis through all these books. Think how proudly the size of Ice was described. And how Needle is dismissed. This is where the sexism comes in I guess. Arya wants a penis and knows how to use one so she's ok. Sansa doesn't so she's not. At least she likes looking at them (the tourney) versus Jeyne Poole who is just plain despised. Catelyn acts like she has one and Cersei uses other people's. Danys has ten thousand of them. We can go on forever in this vein or more likely, it's already been done. : )

[3idcrow]

Yes, hand/sword = penis through all these books. Think how proudly the size of Ice was described. And how Needle is dismissed. This is where the sexism comes in I guess. Arya wants a penis and knows how to use one so she's ok. Sansa doesn't so she's not. At least she likes looking at them (the tourney) versus Jeyne Poole who is just plain despised. Catelyn acts like she has one and Cersei uses other people's. Danys has ten thousand of them. We can go on forever in this vein or more likely, it's already been done. : )

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Well, I actually don't remember this angle being discussed previously... But I'm relatively new here as well.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Well, I actually don't remember this angle being discussed previously... But I'm relatively new here as well.

Right, ditto.

Plus, Aubrem: you said "vein". hee hee. :laugh: Ok enough, back on topic.

[Liadin]

I was disappointed by AFFC Cersei too. I don't think it was sexism on GRRM's part (although you see it creeping in sometimes when it comes to reader reactions to her), but I do think that when he eliminated the 5-year gap, he might have done better to get her out of the way without having her go insane and stupid.

I really would have liked to see a POV of Cersei as she was in the first three books just because it would have been so interesting. She'd be arguably the most hated character coming into the POV (sure, lots of people hated Jaime, but I'd guess not as much, because he had less screen time in the first two books if nothing else). Plus, she's a woman, not a warrioress, and not especially witty, so she couldn't worm her way into readers' hearts through kickass skills with a sword or a razorsharp wit. It would have been an interesting challenge (for GRRM, and for the readers) to have her be sympathetic from her own POV.

There was potential there: in the early books she genuinely seemed to love her kids and Jaime (at one point Tyrion commented that he thought she was more worried about Joff's death than her own), and she didn't seem to be doing such a terrible job with the younger children. Plus the whole resentment of her inferior status as a female, which I think most readers would see as righteous resentment. And then there was the abuse. It would have been interesting to see her as an independent woman who's turned bitter and selfish and feels guilty about what she has to do to keep her family in power. And the forum debates would have been interesting too. Alas, it was not to be....