The Wiseman´s Fear VI (Spoilers and discussion)

[Sylvester]

What is Master Ash called?

Maitre Frene-"Frene" is the name of the ash tree, so no real clue here I'm afraid. It means exactly Master Ash.

[two_by_two]

Maitre Frene-"Frene" is the name of the ash tree, so no real clue here I'm afraid. It means exactly Master Ash.

Damn. I was hoping strongly for a clue there. Oh well.

[harvv]

Welcome, harvv, nice first post!

Hahahaha, my meme has spread throughout the interwebs! Bow down, suckers. :P

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

lol thanks....would be good to get some feedback on my thoughts maybe theyve already been brought up a lot though...the person who i saw post the elodin/manet thing was named numbertwenty or something like that.

[faek]

I'm from Sweden, and we also only have the tNotW translated so far. (answer to previous post)

1) Auri's name isn't changed

Same in the Swedish translation.

2) "Tinker" is translated by "Retameur", which is a kind of a worker, so it's kind of a direct translation I think.

"Tinker" is more or less directly translated to a word meaning "peddler".

3) "Reshi" stays Reshi

Same

4) "Valaritas" is still there

Same

Other points:

-Cinder is translated as "Cendre", which means "Ash", but can apparently also mean cinder...so unclear about this point. (I have to admit I don't really know the difference between cinder and ash, if there is one)

"Sinter" apparently means something along the lines of "a melted mix of minerals"

-Lady Lackless stays Lady Lackless. So does Puppet, which is a bit surprising as it could be translated to "Marionnette", which means puppet in French, but I guess they must have sticked to the original name.

"Puppet" is translated directly to something in between puppet and doll.

-Most of the other names stay the same (Lanre, Haliax, Ferula, the masters, Bast, Simmon, all the girls, including Denna...

Same in my version

I'll try doing a comparison of each tema(?) term as well and see if there's any hidden meaning in the parts that was translated. @Sylvester, is there some modifications done to the languages used in the French version as well?

I'm very glad that I read the English version of the book first; had I picked up the Swedish translation first I wouldn't even had bothered to read the WMF. I don't like the translation at all. It's using really archaic terms, making it feel unnecessary rigid and stiff.

[Sylvester]

@Faek

I actually don't have a copy, I just checked it at the bookstore, and I also didn't like the translation, and I even found some mistakes from memory...(And no, they were no clues, just translation mistakes). From what I remember, there were no visible changes in the languages, I checked especially the skin dancer scene and it's exactly the same, so is Cealdish (Lhin...)

One other thing I noticed and that I forgot to mention: in the quote "Who protects you from the Amyr, the Singers, the Sithe", first of all, the translation for singers is "chantres", which is extremely interesting: the standart translation would be "chanteurs", the word "chantre" is reserved for professional religious singers. Oh yes, and it isn't capitalized. I guess that is one more point for singers=angels and not singers=Tahl...

@Harv

You know, it's kinda hard to find new things now, whenever someone puts up an intersting theory, someone comes and says: "Oh yes, this has been discussed in thread 2"^^

But it's always nice to discuss these things, so here's some feedback:

On the locked name idea, it's been around for a while and it makes good sense (to me at least). Another piece of evidence is the story made up about Chronicler, and about the king who locked his name away.

About the Amyr-I don't think Elodin is one. He's much too wierd to be one I think. Lorren, on the other hand, is much more probable.

Yeah, I love Elodin as a character. In tNotW, the scene where Kvothe jumps off the roof is great, and the one with Elodin and Kvothe naked in the storm is hilarious, I find.

[jumbles]

Lorren - Okay so i have mixed ideas about Lorren....

. [1]My first is that he is associated with the amyr. He seems to be in the prime position for getting rid of info on the Amyr from the largest library in the world.(Puppet also in this position...the puppet character is very interesting to me, i hope we see more of him). And i also coudl think he is stashing information on the Chandrian/Amyr behind that vault door in his library. Id say he would be hiding it there because he knows what has come of people [mentioning/even looking for] the names of the Chandrian...as well as keeping public knowledge of the Amyr to a minimum.

Hello harvv. I really don't have much to say about Lorren being Amyr as I have not seen much evidence for or against it. But I will say that this post supplies some evidence that Puppet may be one of the human Amyr.

[harvv]

@Harv

About the Amyr-I don't think Elodin is one. He's much too wierd to be one I think. Lorren, on the other hand, is much more probable.

Yes i dont think Elodin is an Amyr at all, infact id be surprised if he has strong ties to anything at all other than the University(which he doesnt even seem to be THAT attached to lol) Just seems like a loner doing his own thing, cant see him being associated with anything...much less anything organized. But i guess he wasnt always that way lol.

Sorry i wasnt implying he WAS an Amyr, i meant to say i bet that hes most likely met/known a member personally. Because well, so far Elodin seems to know a bit about everything(fae,names,ademre,cards lol, whateverr)....infact the only time i can even remember him being surprised by anything was when kvothe mentioned his friends name changing...and that surprise wasnt from lack of knowledge, it was because he knew all too well what changing names could do.

Also i cant remember what they are atm but in another thread i saw someone had looked up a lot of the names from the book like lorren and imre and many others....they posted the meanings of these names that were from many languages and they all matched up quite well to their kingkiller chronicles counterparts...patrick really went all out in the naming department it seems haha, i thought that was pretty awesome.

[harvv]

Hello harvv. I really don't have much to say about Lorren being Amyr as I have not seen much evidence for or against it. But I will say that this post supplies some evidence that Puppet may be one of the human Amyr.

Damn, NICE find...he wouldve been one of the farthest from being an Amyr in my mind. Id almost say that reference could mean he is imitating the Amyr as he just has a bit of knowledge of them. But those two lines do fit VERY perfectly. Interesting thought. Is there any info given regarding the age of puppet? In stories/books/movies/fantasy carving generally does tend to be associated with the wise and travelled folk, also the being able to read peoples eyes. Maybe these are clues as well? Or maybe just an odd habit from the oddity puppet. He is a very interesting character i hope we get to see more of him.

[jumbles]

Is there any info given regarding the age of puppet?

As far as I know, the only evidence is in WMFc40:

"I realized he was older than I'd thought. His face was smooth and unlined, but his hair was pure white and thin on top."

I came up with a crazy idea. I did a quick search in the threads and saw that it was brought up once before, but no evidence was provided and I didn't see any discussion result from it, so I'm going to bring it up again.

Perhaps the Cthaeh was the tinker in the story of Jax stealing the moon. The evidence:

1. Jax spoke to the Cthaeh before stealing the moon.

2. The tinker brought the moon to Jax's attention and gave him the tools to steal it.

3. The tinker meant ill-will to Jax (When Jax asked what was in the 3rd pack, the tinker answered "Something for you to choke on.").

4. The broken house could be the Cthaeh's tree and the broken road could be the road that doesn't reach the tree. (Though this is weak since the tree is in the Fae which Jax hadn't created yet and I don't see how the tree is like a broken house.)

As I said, it's a crazy idea.

[Lady Nerevar]

I'd propose that both Puppet and Lorren are Amyr, or at least in some way associated with the order. Lorren is in the perfect position to keep an eye on the archives, and quickly stops Kvothe from asking any questions about the Chandrian or the Amyr. He could have seen the connection Kvothe was making and made sure that he didn't get any farther. There's also the Cthaeh's statement that "the masters at the University might know the answers [about the Chandrian] that you're looking for," but wouldn't tell him if he asked. That seems to suggest that at least two of them know the truth about the Chandrian, which could mean they are Amyr.

Lorren must also know about Puppet and his candles, and since he hasn't chased him out yet I'd say its safe to assume they have some sort of understanding. Puppet also has an interesting quote, which might be applicable to Kvothe's search: "See little wooden Kvothe? See him looking? So intent. So dedicated. He'll look for a hundred years, but will he ever see what is in front of him?" Could Kvothe be looking at an Amyr (or several) and not seeing them? The puppets themselves could be symbolic of the Amyr pulling the strings of people (and religions, in the case of the Tehlin puppet Puppet was playing with). He also never answers the question about the contradicting accounts of the Order's disbandment.

As for the Tinker and Cthaeh, I'd say that's a bit of a stretch. I'd say the ill will was more due to being robbed of all his possessions by an emo child rather than any sort of ill will. Instead I'd say that the hermit he encounters on the road is the Cthaeh. 1) The Cthaeh doesn't come to you, you come to it. 2) While Jax already had the tools, the hermit taught him how to use them, and encourages him to do so (though indirectly). 3) The Cthaeh has good hearing (is able to hear the flexing tendons in Kvothe's hands), and the hermit is a listener.

Of course, that is a stretch too. It seems that man has no concept of the Cthaeh. Bast mentions it in relation of Lanre, but it doesn't come up in any of the other stories about him. It could be that the manish version of the tale has no direct parallel to the Cthaeh. On the other hand, Fae version of the story has Jax (my ebook has Bast calling him "Iax," not sure if this is a missprint or an alternate name) has him as a great namer and shaper, rather than a sad boy (perhaps combining the roles of Jax and the hermit?).

Excuse the rambling, and thanks to the board for pointing my way to this series :cheers:

[two_by_two]

As far as I know, the only evidence is in WMFc40:

"I realized he was older than I'd thought. His face was smooth and unlined, but his hair was pure white and thin on top."

I came up with a crazy idea. I did a quick search in the threads and saw that it was brought up once before, but no evidence was provided and I didn't see any discussion result from it, so I'm going to bring it up again.

Perhaps the Cthaeh was the tinker in the story of Jax stealing the moon. The evidence:

1. Jax spoke to the Cthaeh before stealing the moon.

2. The tinker brought the moon to Jax's attention and gave him the tools to steal it.

3. The tinker meant ill-will to Jax (When Jax asked what was in the 3rd pack, the tinker answered "Something for you to choke on.").

4. The broken house could be the Cthaeh's tree and the broken road could be the road that doesn't reach the tree. (Though this is weak since the tree is in the Fae which Jax hadn't created yet and I don't see how the tree is like a broken house.)

As I said, it's a crazy idea.

Still a very good point.

On the subject of tinkers, I am increasingly convinced that they are more than they appear to be. Kvothe runs into two tinkers, one in NOTW, one in WMF. The tinkers offer Kvothe various and sundry items, some of which he accepts, some of which he does not. The first time, he bargains for other items as well. Every item the tinker offers him, he uses, usually in an unforeseeable yet crucial way. Every item he refuses, he ends up regretting not having.

The first tinker offers him the loden-stone, a blanket, a rope, and some fruit wine for his horse and tack. Kvothe convinces him to trade for the loden-stone, a blanket, a new shirt, and some brandy. Later (Chapter 74: Waystone), with Denna, Kvothe wishes he had taken the fruit wine. It was even strawberry wine - Denna's favorite. In Chapter 77: Bluffs, Kvothe has to use his travelsack as a makeshift rope, and it rips. Additionally, in Chapter 78: Poison, when Kvothe and Denna are trying to poison the draccus, they wish they had rope to lure the draccus off a cliff; all they can find is twine, which will not suffice. In Chapter 77: Bluffs, Kvothe rips his new shirt when he rushes to get charcoal for Denna. And without the loden-stone, he could never have killed the draccus.

I don't have my copy of WMF with me, so I'm working from memory, but I believe the second tinker trades Kvothe a used cloak, a knife, and paper for and delivery of a letter in exchange for his fancy cloak and an iron penny, a copper penny, and a silver penny. This one isn't as telling, as Kvothe doesn't refuse anything and the items he does take are fairly standard for a traveler. However, the tinker does push the paper on Kvothe until he remembers he needs to write a letter, for what that's worth.

[Kmmontandon]

I'd like to add in: Many of Kvothe's friends must wind up dead by the end of the next book.

Not because of any ominous signs so far, but simply because if Chronicler's works get published, a lot of them would get in trouble for what they did, that he's now telling everyone. Or at least beyond the reach of retribution - his fellow students that broke so many rules on his behalf must be out of the University, or dead. Sim, Wil, Fela, and Mola were all in on various acts that would get them expelled, possibly even years later, and now everyone will know about them. Elodin probably isn't a Master anymore (and I wonder if the "Master Namer" that called Chronicler hopeless is Elodin - I doubt it, or I think he'd simply have said the name). Auri is no doubt long gone somewhere. Devi will obviously have moved on, or is dead.

The Maer is likely dead, too, as he very likely wouldn't be pleased to have his being betrayed by Caudicus revealed, nor his wife to know that Kvothe was the real force behind his courtship, or any of the other secrets we'll likely find out about him in the next book.

Kvothe wouldn't have any problem revealing all these secrets if these people couldn't get in trouble.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I'd like to add in: Many of Kvothe's friends must wind up dead by the end of the next book.

Not because of any ominous signs so far, but simply because if Chronicler's works get published, a lot of them would get in trouble for what they did, that he's now telling everyone. Or at least beyond the reach of retribution - his fellow students that broke so many rules on his behalf must be out of the University, or dead. Sim, Wil, Fela, and Mola were all in on various acts that would get them expelled, possibly even years later, and now everyone will know about them. Elodin probably isn't a Master anymore (and I wonder if the "Master Namer" that called Chronicler hopeless is Elodin - I doubt it, or I think he'd simply have said the name). Auri is no doubt long gone somewhere. Devi will obviously have moved on, or is dead.

The Maer is likely dead, too, as he very likely wouldn't be pleased to have his being betrayed by Caudicus revealed, nor his wife to know that Kvothe was the real force behind his courtship, or any of the other secrets we'll likely find out about him in the next book.

Kvothe wouldn't have any problem revealing all these secrets if these people couldn't get in trouble.

But as far as anyone of importance is concerned it's just a story. Kvothe saving the Maer from Caudicus isn't something people will necessarily accept as truth. Look at Cob's stories. They are wildly inaccurate or completely made up. So Chronicler publishes the real story, he can't say that he got the story straight from Kvothe because there is a bounty on Kvothe and some enterprising individual will try to find a way to coerce C into sharing what he knows. So people will either assume that C gathered a bunch of stories about Kvothe and pulled out the common elements to craft his story. Or he completely made it up.

And even if C story is published as the true story of Kvothe the University will never acknowledge that any of it is true. If they start punishing people for making the life of their most politically powerful student hell, they are admitting that a bunch of commoners and political non entities were able to take Ambrose Jakis on and get away with it. At their University. It would be an admission that they can't control their students or protect the noble ones.

[harvv]

I'd like to add in: Many of Kvothe's friends must wind up dead by the end of the next book.

Not because of any ominous signs so far, but simply because if Chronicler's works get published, a lot of them would get in trouble for what they did, that he's now telling everyone. Or at least beyond the reach of retribution - his fellow students that broke so many rules on his behalf must be out of the University, or dead. Sim, Wil, Fela, and Mola were all in on various acts that would get them expelled, possibly even years later, and now everyone will know about them. Elodin probably isn't a Master anymore (and I wonder if the "Master Namer" that called Chronicler hopeless is Elodin - I doubt it, or I think he'd simply have said the name). Auri is no doubt long gone somewhere. Devi will obviously have moved on, or is dead.

The Maer is likely dead, too, as he very likely wouldn't be pleased to have his being betrayed by Caudicus revealed, nor his wife to know that Kvothe was the real force behind his courtship, or any of the other secrets we'll likely find out about him in the next book.

Kvothe wouldn't have any problem revealing all these secrets if these people couldn't get in trouble.

I think MANY problems would arise from kvothes story becoming public knowledge....and im sure he knows this as well but for some reason at this point doesnt seem to care. Perhaps there will be some twist with the Chronicler that we arent aware of. Maybe Kvothe has no intention of letting him leave with the story. Or maybe Kvothe will take the story at the end refusing to let Chronicler keep it. We know that Kvothe ATTEMPTED to begin writing a few bits of his story himself, but maybe hes only allowing Chronicler to write it because he himself is unable to, and plans on taking it for himself at the end. Or maybe Chronicler is really documenting for the Chandrian...and Kvothe is only hiding his powers so thats what Chronicler reports to them.

Im thinking there might be some relationship between them that we arent aware of yet. Or maybe i could be completely wrong.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I think MANY problems would arise from kvothes story becoming public knowledge....and im sure he knows this as well but for some reason at this point doesnt seem to care. Perhaps there will be some twist with the Chronicler that we arent aware of. Maybe Kvothe has no intention of letting him leave with the story. Or maybe Kvothe will take the story at the end refusing to let Chronicler keep it. We know that Kvothe ATTEMPTED to begin writing a few bits of his story himself, but maybe hes only allowing Chronicler to write it because he himself is unable to, and plans on taking it for himself at the end. Or maybe Chronicler is really documenting for the Chandrian...and Kvothe is only hiding his powers so thats what Chronicler reports to them.

Im thinking there might be some relationship between them that we arent aware of yet. Or maybe i could be completely wrong.

All roads lead to Skarpi. Don't forget that Chronicler name checks Skarpi before Kvothe agrees to tell his story. That's a huge indicator that Chronicler is more than just a scribe and Skarpi has an important role to play in DoS.

[jumbles]

On the subject of tinkers, I am increasingly convinced that they are more than they appear to be. Kvothe runs into two tinkers, one in NOTW, one in WMF. The tinkers offer Kvothe various and sundry items, some of which he accepts, some of which he does not. The first time, he bargains for other items as well. Every item the tinker offers him, he uses, usually in an unforeseeable yet crucial way. Every item he refuses, he ends up regretting not having.

The first tinker offers him the loden-stone, a blanket, a rope, and some fruit wine for his horse and tack. Kvothe convinces him to trade for the loden-stone, a blanket, a new shirt, and some brandy. Later (Chapter 74: Waystone), with Denna, Kvothe wishes he had taken the fruit wine. It was even strawberry wine - Denna's favorite. In Chapter 77: Bluffs, Kvothe has to use his travelsack as a makeshift rope, and it rips. Additionally, in Chapter 78: Poison, when Kvothe and Denna are trying to poison the draccus, they wish they had rope to lure the draccus off a cliff; all they can find is twine, which will not suffice. In Chapter 77: Bluffs, Kvothe rips his new shirt when he rushes to get charcoal for Denna. And without the loden-stone, he could never have killed the draccus.

I don't have my copy of WMF with me, so I'm working from memory, but I believe the second tinker trades Kvothe a used cloak, a knife, and paper for and delivery of a letter in exchange for his fancy cloak and an iron penny, a copper penny, and a silver penny. This one isn't as telling, as Kvothe doesn't refuse anything and the items he does take are fairly standard for a traveler. However, the tinker does push the paper on Kvothe until he remembers he needs to write a letter, for what that's worth.

The second tinker also trades Kvothe salt, a tinderbox, and candles. And Kvothe turns down rubbing wax for his boots which would have been useful with all the rain they ended up getting.

[williamjm]

I'd like to add in: Many of Kvothe's friends must wind up dead by the end of the next book.

Not because of any ominous signs so far, but simply because if Chronicler's works get published, a lot of them would get in trouble for what they did, that he's now telling everyone. Or at least beyond the reach of retribution - his fellow students that broke so many rules on his behalf must be out of the University, or dead. Sim, Wil, Fela, and Mola were all in on various acts that would get them expelled, possibly even years later, and now everyone will know about them. Elodin probably isn't a Master anymore (and I wonder if the "Master Namer" that called Chronicler hopeless is Elodin - I doubt it, or I think he'd simply have said the name). Auri is no doubt long gone somewhere. Devi will obviously have moved on, or is dead.

The Maer is likely dead, too, as he very likely wouldn't be pleased to have his being betrayed by Caudicus revealed, nor his wife to know that Kvothe was the real force behind his courtship, or any of the other secrets we'll likely find out about him in the next book.

Kvothe wouldn't have any problem revealing all these secrets if these people couldn't get in trouble.

That is a good point, although we don't really know how accurate Kvothe is being with his narration. It's certainly possible that he could have changed some names to protect the guilty - obviously there wouldn't be much point in changing The Maer's name or Elodin's, but he could easily use pseudonyms for some of the less identifiable people like Wil or Fela.

I think you're missing a more serious problem that could occur if Chronicler's book did get widely published, since it does include the names of the Chandrian and they are dangerous names to know especially if some of the readers don't believe the warnings about not speaking them aloud.

[two_by_two]

The second tinker also trades Kvothe salt, a tinderbox, and candles. And Kvothe turns down rubbing wax for his boots which would have been useful with all the rain they ended up getting.

And he ended up using the wax for mommets and the knife for killing all those bandits.

[jumbles]

Just noticed that in WMF chapter 109, the Ademic phrase Sceopa teyas means I'm not speaking. Sceopa looks really close to the name Sceop, the beggar who joined the Edema Ruh in the story Kvothe told in chapter 37. I'm guessing Sceop's name is Ademic for "speak" or "speaker" or something like that.

[two_by_two]

Just noticed that in WMF chapter 109, the Ademic phrase Sceopa teyas means I'm not speaking. Sceopa looks really close to the name Sceop, the beggar who joined the Edema Ruh in the story Kvothe told in chapter 37. I'm guessing Sceop's name is Ademic for "speak" or "speaker" or something like that.

Which, as pointed out earlier (here, by thistlepong), is eerily similar to the name "Skarpi".