[BOOK/TV Spoilers] Season Two - speculation

[Anomandaris86]

How will they fit it all in?

They won't.

[kahless]

At some point in S2 I guess they'll be introducing the Blackfish seeing he was omitted from the whole Vale of Arryn segment in S1.

I can't see them cutting much of Tyrion's chapters down, we may loose some of his comings [sic] and goings with Shae, which considering the amount sex scenes in S1 won't be a bad thing.

I suppose there will have to be something created for Jamie to do as until Catelyn makes him his offer he's absent for most of the book. I can't see them keeping Coster on contract just for a few scenes near the end.

[mr. peasant]

From the sounds of things, it's becoming increasingly apparent that writing for an epic novel series is quite different from writing for an epic TV series since characters can come and go according to the writer's will in the former where as actors can't in the latter. Moreover, one of the criticisms of the show is that not all episodes feature all the main cast members/plot lines - which at the moment mostly centres around the Wall, Winterfell, King's Landing, Daenerys and Catelyn's travel - and this will become increasingly so if the show continues to adapt squarely from the books.

Therefore, I would not be entirely surprised if the writers decide to stick with the current cast and keep most of the new characters as minor roles and possibly even unseen characters until they interact with the main cast; with the audience learning of their actions as and when the main characters do. In short, we experience the world mostly through the original characters' eyes; as opposed from the eyes of the newcomers.

[Brewmaster]

There's definitely going to be more cut next season than from the first season. And then there will be more, from the book, cut in the 3rd season than the 2nd. It's just the nature of the medium and the result of how "wide" ASOIAF is.

Even GRRM has complained about how wide and unwieldy his book series has gotten, and how it has made it difficult.

By Feast (and presumably dance), the series has gotten to its widest point, with almost none of the POVs even being within 100 leagues of each other most of the time. Only Cersei and Jaime are in the same place for any extended period of time. Brienne's briefly around Jaime at the start and Arya's momentarily in the same city as Sam.

But having 10 different stories taking place in 10 different places with little to no interaction between them isn't the way to do a TV show.

The TV show will tighten up the story, if it wants to succeed, which is surely going to mean cutting and changing some things.

I see more Jaime in season 2 than book 2.

Lots of Tyrion, like in the book

Theon / Bran is going to be interesting. They've set up Theon enough to be able to take on a bigger role in season 2 and have the audience accept it. But I could see some pretty divergent changes in the way everything goes down with him and Bran/Rickon (making Theon more or less sympathetic, I don't know).

Arya's probably has either a quicker road to Harrenhall or a shorter stay, cutting down her story quite a bit. A shorter stay would be my guess. Gendry, Lommy and Hot Pie have all been cast, they probably don't cast the whole Harrenhall staff. Its conceivable she doesn't even end up at Harrenhall at all, just goes straight from traveling with Gendry to "captured" by the BWB (keeping her with Gendry the whole time keeps some continuity there).

Ranging North of the wall I think gets a lot of time next season. The audience already knows these characters and is curious about the North. Hopefully sticks pretty close to the book.

Sansa being in King's Landing with Tyrion gets her story told enough. We'll probably see a lot less of her, though.

I think we see less Dany. Dragons likely make her scenes more expensive, not to mention more magical things happening in her story at this point, and yet her story moves pretty slowly in Clash. We'll see some, to be sure, but I doubt they'll be lost in the desert for any length of time- just keep them moving from one place to another.

Davos/Stannis is an interesting one. How much do they devote to them?

Renly's been introduced this season, but (assuming they keep THIS part the same) will be gone by the 3rd episode or so.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

OK cool, now that that's off the ground, here's my adaptation predictions.

Night's Watch - this is hard because really... very little happens, and they will have to cut some of the seemingly endless wandering. One approach would be to bring in the battle against The Wights from the 3rd book as the climax/cliffhanger. Perhaps they will just have the season end with "OOoooooooooooooooooooooooo OOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooo OOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooo"

Dany - After Dragons, I think she needs to be in at least 8/10 episodes. And although she only has 5 chapters, some of them (the first episode in particular) have a lot of material which could be split up. Still, I think they may bring in more material from aSoS. ACoK ends with the arrival of Barristan Arstan, but as awesome as that is, I can't help thinking they may decide to end on the boat ride out of Qarth instead - that's where Jorah kisses Dany, would make a better cliffhanger I think.

Bran - He'll get about as much time as in the first series - so he'll appear in about half the episodes. They'll concentrate on Jojen/Meera.

Jaime - I think they'll add some Jaime, including him trying to escape Riverrun. However, I would guess he will be seen in at most 5 episodes, probably 4.

Sansa - They won't have to change much, just give her some great scenes with Littlefinger, The Hound, and Joffery. I expect she'll be in 6-7 episodes.

Arya - similar to Sansa in terms of screentime. If they are clever, they will always alternate Sansa and Arya scenes, for the dramatic contrast.

The real meat of the plot is divided among Theon, Stannis/Davos, Catelyn, and Tyrion, and it will take some doing to use these characters to tell the plot in a coherent way.

Catelyn's chatpers are all very meaty, and packed with action as well as great characters, old and new. I think we will see them mostly unchanged.

Tyrion will be cut drastically. He needs to have several great scenes with Cersei and the other players, and some Shae sex, but other than that they have a lot of room to wiggle. I've never understood why he has 15 chapters TBH, a lot of them are superfluous. They can cut a few of the political details and maybe only have 2-3 sex scenes.

Stannis has very few chapters where he's the main focus (3-4) - but Stannis really is the main antagonist for the plot of the second season. They must add some scenes with Stannis, Davos, and Melisandre so that the audience remembers who this is.

Theon - I see this going very much as in the book. There will be very few scenes on the Iron Islands, just like in the book - and they'll only show Balon and Asha by name.

[kahless]

Stannis has very few chapters where he's the main focus (3-4) - but Stannis really is the main antagonist for the plot of the second season. They must add some scenes with Stannis, Davos, and Melisandre so that the audience remembers who this is.

I'd think its essential they establish Stannis and Davos within the first couple of episodes, slowly building them up until the Battle of the Blackwater. If they leave it too late non-book readers will be sat wondering who the hell these people are and where did all those ships come from?

I agree that a lot of Tyrion's chapters can be forgotten, as I said in my post all the back and forth between the Red Keep and Shae can be whittled down to one visit and the rest hinted at.

[Abaddon]

As an aside, after what the show did with the Eyrie, I can't wait to see Dragonstone and the map table.

[gogorath]

OK cool, now that that's off the ground, here's my adaptation predictions.

Night's Watch - this is hard because really... very little happens, and they will have to cut some of the seemingly endless wandering. One approach would be to bring in the battle against The Wights from the 3rd book as the climax/cliffhanger. Perhaps they will just have the season end with "OOoooooooooooooooooooooooo OOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooo OOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooo"

Dany - After Dragons, I think she needs to be in at least 8/10 episodes. And although she only has 5 chapters, some of them (the first episode in particular) have a lot of material which could be split up. Still, I think they may bring in more material from aSoS. ACoK ends with the arrival of Barristan Arstan, but as awesome as that is, I can't help thinking they may decide to end on the boat ride out of Qarth instead - that's where Jorah kisses Dany, would make a better cliffhanger I think.

Bran - He'll get about as much time as in the first series - so he'll appear in about half the episodes. They'll concentrate on Jojen/Meera.

Jaime - I think they'll add some Jaime, including him trying to escape Riverrun. However, I would guess he will be seen in at most 5 episodes, probably 4.

Sansa - They won't have to change much, just give her some great scenes with Littlefinger, The Hound, and Joffery. I expect she'll be in 6-7 episodes.

Arya - similar to Sansa in terms of screentime. If they are clever, they will always alternate Sansa and Arya scenes, for the dramatic contrast.

The real meat of the plot is divided among Theon, Stannis/Davos, Catelyn, and Tyrion, and it will take some doing to use these characters to tell the plot in a coherent way.

Catelyn's chatpers are all very meaty, and packed with action as well as great characters, old and new. I think we will see them mostly unchanged.

Tyrion will be cut drastically. He needs to have several great scenes with Cersei and the other players, and some Shae sex, but other than that they have a lot of room to wiggle. I've never understood why he has 15 chapters TBH, a lot of them are superfluous. They can cut a few of the political details and maybe only have 2-3 sex scenes.

Stannis has very few chapters where he's the main focus (3-4) - but Stannis really is the main antagonist for the plot of the second season. They must add some scenes with Stannis, Davos, and Melisandre so that the audience remembers who this is.

Theon - I see this going very much as in the book. There will be very few scenes on the Iron Islands, just like in the book - and they'll only show Balon and Asha by name.

Thanks for writing this.

I think next season we'll begin to see actual made-up plot points (as opposed to expository scenes).

Theon and Bran converge, so Bran will get time with Jojen and Meera early, along with perhaps some Crow, and then it will merge with Theon, creating more screen time for him, Osha, Rickon, etc.

Tyrion, Sansa, Cersei are all together, so there's plenty of material. I'm not sure there's as much meat for Catelyn, but there's enough. Arya has more than enough.

The issues are Dany, Jon and Dragonstone.

I could see them moving up both some of Jon and Dany. I could also see them making up those new plot points. I'm not excited about it, but those two characters are kind of important. And they don't do a whole lot that is active in the book.

Is the Edric Storm plotline in play at Dragonstone? Perhaps they play up Davos' plotting? Something has to keep us going back there.

[MMOWarrior]

I'm a bit scared because the death toll does not compare with the number of characters they need to Add

Ned

Drogo

Viserys

Robert

Jory

Syryo

Septa Mordane

that's 6 deaths vs.

Stannis

Mel

Stannis's wife

Davos

Randyl Tarly

Mace Tyrell

Margaery Tyrell

Ygrytte

Dolorous Edd

The Reed Children

Courtney Penrose

Brienne

Podrick Payne

Ser Dontos the Fool

and I' sure I'm missing some

The other problem is that book 2 does not have as many significant deaths as previous seasons the only real big one is Renly,

A lot of those on your list really aren't prominent until the third book..

[Asharak]

As others have said not much really happens in the Jon and Dany chapters in ACOK, until their last 2 chapter or so. I think they definitely need to take material from ASOS to give those plotlines some real meat. If they don’t do that, I’m afraid that most viewers will get bored fast by the Night watch plotline. People will be expecting scary monsters and barbarians, and instead they will mostly get scenes of people walking through the forest.

One solution could be to not show anything from those plotlines until the second half of the season, that way they wouldn’t feel that empty.

Anyway, I’m 99% certain that Pyp won’t stay at the wall in s2 (like in the book), it makes little sense for Jon Snow to lose one of his main supporting characters for 1-2 seasons.

The way I remember it most of Sansa`s chapters weren’t about her, she was mostly just a viewpoint into the court in Kings Landing, so I would assume she would be omitted from a lot of those scenes.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I'm a bit scared because the death toll does not compare with the number of characters they need to Add

Ned

Drogo

Viserys

Robert

Jory

Syryo

Septa Mordane

that's 6 deaths vs.

Stannis

Mel

Stannis's wife

Davos

Randyl Tarly

Mace Tyrell

Margaery Tyrell

Ygrytte

Dolorous Edd

The Reed Children

Courtney Penrose

Brienne

Podrick Payne

Ser Dontos the Fool

and I' sure I'm missing some

The other problem is that book 2 does not have as many significant deaths as previous seasons the only real big one is Renly,

A lot of those people won't be very prominant. Marg could almost be cut as she's only in the scene at Bitterbridge. Edd could be substituted for Pyp. Courtney is only in it for one scene. Ygritte the same.

Only people that play a big role are Brienne, The reeds, stannis Davos and Mel. so that 6 new charecters for the 6 deaths. Also you'll have to add the Tully's and some more Robb.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

damn double post.

[mr. peasant]

A lot of those people won't be very prominant. Marg could almost be cut as she's only in the scene at Bitterbridge. Edd could be substituted for Pyp. Courtney is only in it for one scene. Ygritte the same.

Only people that play a big role are Brienne, The reeds, stannis Davos and Mel. so that 6 new charecters for the 6 deaths. Also you'll have to add the Tully's and some more Robb.

The main problem isn't the number of characters but rather the number of locations the story is taking place in. If you had 50 characters all grouped together in one place and interacting with each other, their story would be much easier and less time consuming to cover than if they were all in different places doing their own thing. By adding Stannis and Renly's locations/view points, that's 40% more content that needs to be covered each episode (from the previous five of the Wall, Winterfell, King's Landing, Catelyn's travels/Robb's war front, and Daenerys' journey).

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

The main problem isn't the number of characters but rather the number of locations the story is taking place in. If you had 50 characters all grouped together in one place and interacting with each other, their story would be much easier and less time consuming to cover than if they were all in different places doing their own thing. By adding Stannis and Renly's locations/view points, that's 40% more content that needs to be covered each episode (from the previous five of the Wall, Winterfell, King's Landing, Catelyn's travels/Robb's war front, and Daenerys' journey).

You make a good point. How about a list of Locations in aCoK? IF I'm missing any let me know.

King's Landing

Winterfell

Riverrun

The Kingsroad

God's Eye (this is where Yoren & co are beseiged IIRC?)

Harrenhal

Renly's Host

Dragonstone

Storm's End

Battle at the Blackwater (almost like its own location, won't look like any part of King's Landing we've seen yet)

Red Waste

The ruined city Vaes Tolorro

Qarth

The Wall/North of The Wall/Woods

Craster's Keep

Fist of the First Men

The Frostfangs

Wildlings' Camp

Some of these could be condensed/cut/simplified... The Seige at Storm's End seems most likely to be cut. Vaes Tolorro probably won't happen (they'll just camp in some oasis).

[Morrigan]

*Vaes Tolorro

Arya's probably has either a quicker road to Harrenhall or a shorter stay, cutting down her story quite a bit. A shorter stay would be my guess. Gendry, Lommy and Hot Pie have all been cast, they probably don't cast the whole Harrenhall staff. Its conceivable she doesn't even end up at Harrenhall at all, just goes straight from traveling with Gendry to "captured" by the BWB (keeping her with Gendry the whole time keeps some continuity there).

That would be really awful. Her interaction with Jaqen H'ghar at Harrenhal is pivotal for Arya's storyline. She needs the three deaths, and she needs the coin from Jaqen to end up on Braavos.

I hope they don't cut Asha. She doesn't have that much screen time, but she's badass, and her introduction scene with Theon is the single funniest moment in the entire series.

[ferthepoet]

Well the reason I am concerned about the number of characters is that even if they are only in one or 2 episodes in she second season I think HBO needs to pay something extra to make sure they are available for the following season which can take a chunk of the budget plus I forgot to mention some like Jaqen H'ghar, Edmure Tully, Roose Bolton and the Bastard of Bolton

[Basileus777]

I agree with those who have suggested using ASOS material for Dany in season 2. She's one of the central characters of this show, she needs more to do than what is in ACOK. Moving up some of her material could potentially help for future seasons as well.

Season 1 was exceedingly faithful to the source material, but it's pretty much inevitable that as the show progresses, it's going to diverge from the books more and more. Limiting the number of characters and merging more character roles is going to be important. For example, I don't really see the need for the Blackfish in the show, he isn't an essential character and whatever role he has can be merged with Edmure.

[JakePT]

I wouldn't be surprised if Arya is separated from Yoren relatively early, since it seems the beginning of her ACOK story will be in Episode 10. Also, if the Blackwater is in episode 9, that means Tyrion, Cersei, Stannis, Davos, Sansa all finish 'early' leaving Episode 10 to Jon, Arya, Bran, Theon and Dany meaning they can be cut from earlier episodes.

[j52y]

I find a lot of the concern about the structure of the books not being right for the show to be incorrect. The concerns you express are correct if the show were on network television, but this is HBO. Have you ever seen The Wire or Deadwood or True Blood? HBO has no problem introducing a whole lot of new characters in a season and focusing on them instead of the leads. Season 4 of The Wire, arguably it's best, focuses on four new characters. And The Wire deals with homicide, special case unit, east side Baltimore cops, west side Baltimore cops, Avon Barksdale's crew, Marlo Stanfeild's, Prop Joe's crew, Omar's crew, the docks, City Hall, the Baltimore Sun, and the schools (many of those at the same time). I'm not worried about the massive characters or many locations. This story is perfect for HBO. The problem is budget.

I also don't think Storms End will be cut, because they don't actually have to build a set for it. All they have to do is make art for it and find a cave for Davos and Mel to row into.

So, there's 70 chapters in A Clash of Kings. Number of chapters for each point of view character (I realize that this is review):

Bran 7

Jon 8

Tyrion 15

Theon 6

Arya 10

Dany 5

Sansa 7

Catelyn 7

Davos 3 (+1 Cressen prologue)

I'm pretty sure Arya's first chapter is going to be in this Sunday's finale, so make that 9 Arya chapters. I'm also going to guess that we'll get the Jaime chapter and Catelyn chapter from A Storm of Swords.

So, the revised numbers, if I'm right:

Bran 7

Jon 8

Tyrion 15

Theon 6

Arya 9

Dany 5

Sansa 7

Catelyn 8

Davos 3 (+1 Cressen prologue)

Jaime 1

The first season had 10 episodes. A Game of Thrones is 843 pages (US paperback, with the 8 page Arya chapter). With 74 chapters (include the ACoK Arya chapter), that's 7.4 chapters per episode on average. With 11.39 pages per chapter, on average, that's 84.3 chapters per episode.

For now, we're lead to believe that season 2 will also be 10 episodes. Assuming that and the Jaime and Catelyn chapters, with 71 chapters, that's 7.1 chapters per episode (aka about the same). A Clash of Kings US paper back is 1009, minus the 8 page Arya chapter, plus 25 pages for the Jaime/ Catelyn ASoS chapters, that's 1026 pages total, with 14.45 pages per chapter, on average. That's 102.6 pages per episode, on average. That's a significant increase.

If season 2 is 12 episodes, then that's 5.92 chapters per episode, and 85.5 pages per episode, on average.

Now, one thing I will say is that I remember the inner monologues of the characters being bigger in this book. I remember a scene where Catelyn prays to each of the 7, explaining what they are to herself and the audience. A lot of Arya and co riding in the wilderness, and same with Jon. Martin goes into great detail about Jon climbing a mountain wall, and in the show, the climb prolly won't be depicted at all.

Even with that in mind, though, it seems like a lot to squeeze into 10 episodes. And on top of that, we're gonna follow Robb for a little bit as well. There's gonna be a lot of the things cut in this season, for sure. Here's my guess for episode count of the "main characters":

Tyrion: 10 episodes

Jaime: 4

Catelyn: 8

Cersei: 9

Dany: 6

Jorah: 6

Littlefinger: 7

Jon: 9

Sansa: 8

Arya: 9

Robb: 7

Theon: 8

Bran: 7

Joffrey: 8

The Hound: 8

Davos: 6

Stannis: 6

Mel: 6

Sam: 8

Renly: 2

Varys: 10

Some character, like Sansa, Sandor, and Joffrey, have inflated episode counts in my guessing because I think they'll be hanging around Kin's Landing but not necessarily have a storyline for the season. I mean, the Hound is in 8 episodes of the first season (assuming that he's in the finale), and he hasn't really done anything yet.

Dan and Dave have done well enough so that I trust them. There's gonna be a lot of little details cut out. I would still prefer 12 episodes, but Martin, who is writing the 9th episode of the season, is already writing it, so they must have a lot of it figured out already.

[Erekose]

i'm going to speculate that there will be 12 or 13 episodes for season 2 :)

One can hope. The beef Im seeing with viewers is that the first season was too short.

I have to agree. Does any other HBO series only have 10 episode seasons? I get the fact the first season was a pilot, testing the waters, but its shown that it is a hit. Would be a shame to mince CoK up so it fits into 10 episodes.