[BOOK SPOILERS] Sex/Romance: What Fans Wanna See in Future Seasons [MEGA SPOILERS

[julandro]

The only thing I ask is that we get sex scenes only for relevant characters, for example Cersei/Lancel may not be a romantic relationship but it make sense to be explicit with their relationship..... no sex scenes involving whores who are non-characters in the story...

Well! Another person who thinks like me. lol

This time I do believe that the series will go further with Cersei and Lancel. In the last episode left him ready for the second season.

Now I do not think anyone denies that in this second season, Lancel going to have sex. hehehe

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Personally I find all fandoms of popular things tend to be incredibly diverse from gender, age, nationality and so forth. I have observed and often partaken in many various ways of enjoying the thing we/they jointly love. Some like to spend hours in forums going into great detail analyzing every single thing trying to predict what happens next while others love to just talk about the characters and what they wish of them including romance potential. I've found male and female alike in many fandoms rabidly fighting discussing who will end up with who etc. I think the main thing is that as long as the books and show remain popular who cares how each fan male or female enjoys it. I'm sure the great majority of people who read ASOIAF and watch GoT are here for the wonderful world and the stories and characters that inhabit it so they should enjoy it in the way the pleases them. I don't think we should make generalizations about what each gender is coming into the series for though because as I've already stated earlier I've seen many male and female a like partaking in all aspects of the fandom.

:agree: I think Xanderpanda just won the thread. Nice.

So... with that out of the way, does anyone want to go back to discussing what they're looking forward to with regard to sex and romance, or how it should be handled in the show? And meanwhile, all the people that don't care about sex and romance in GoT/ASoIaF can perhaps move on to a thread that's more to their liking?

[Brienne the Beauty]

One interesting thing about sex in GOT (book and series) is how a lot of it is not meant to be 'hot' - for example we had wrinkly old guy/prostitute post-coital chat last episode. Some of the scenes are clearly meant to be titillating, but a lot of them are "slice of life" or actively repulsive. It's an interesting approach. I guess I'd like to see that continue. I don't really watch or read for the pretty people getting it on, but for the vast, intricate, realistic world. So, more gross sex please! :)

[ferthepoet]

What about Dany/Irri in the books is just Dany trying to satisfy her physical needs taking advantage of a passive handmaiden but if made more romantic could bring some lesbian followers for the show and we are all talking about broadening demography.

[TMWNN]

Normally we don't enjoy having questions about moderation policy being put in public rather than communicated to us privately. But I'll make an exception. The reason the post remained was that it was part of an on-going and pretty even-handed discussion, it seemed to me, and while it is manifestly not our policy to allow discussions of other forums here, it felt wrong to just delete a swathe of posts -- including from members of ONTD and FanForums -- to make the point.

So. That's why the post was not removed, so that there was continuity of discussion, but as I noted here, we asked people to stop referring to and discussing specific fan sites. Which, I should note, people have generally done.

As the author of the post that's getting the most criticism from ONTD, I thank Ran for not deleting it. I knew that discussing other forums' moderation policies was forbidden, but didn't realize that that extended to any discussion of specific forums. I apologize for not understanding that, and changed my ways once I read Ran's earlier post in the thread.

I suspect it's a hopeless task, but I'll also try defending myself (and, moderators, please allow me this one last grace). Yes, I was mocking those GoT "party posts", but I was defending them and their posters, too. Heck, any such post shows that they are the first to mock their own intense attachments to their favorite actors and relationships. Far from wishing other forums would have more discussions on realpolitik in King's Landing or Arya's mental state, I think most such threads at Westeros.org and elsewhere are totally pointless--the same people going over the same points over and over and over again--and never read them. It is a good thing for other forums to not get stuck in Westeros.org's same ol' worn-down grooves.

The (female) original poster's point, one I completely agree with but obviously failed to properly communicate in my clumsy male manner, is that different fan groups have different motivations for their attraction to the world of Westeros. The (probably young female) person who is driven by curiosity from reading a GoT party post on another forum into watching the show, falls in love with it, rushes out to buy the books, and along the way posts hilarious animated GIFs of their favorite actor's abs is as legitimate a fan as the (more likely male than the first type) person who attends conventions, loves fantasy novels, and found ASoIAF at the book store first. The first fan type should absolutely not be viewed as a bunch of airheaded rubes just along for the ride while "real" fans benefit from their willingness to spend money ; the post comparing them to House Frey offended me, too. (If I'm to be criticized, at least do it with my own posts!)

That said, from HBO's perspective all fans, regardless of origin or motivation, are potential subscribers and DVD purchasers. As I stated elsewhere in the thread there's nothing wrong with expecting the show's producers to continue to cater to the first fan type in my example by depicting upcoming canon relationships like Jon/Ygritte and Robb/Jeyne in 'shipping-friendly ways, and since I want more seasons of Game of Thrones that's a good thing in my view.

[Brienne the Beauty]

What about Dany/Irri in the books is just Dany trying to satisfy her physical needs taking advantage of a passive handmaiden but if made more romantic could bring some lesbian followers for the show and we are all talking about broadening demography.

LOL

You know, I'm not sure those scenes are there to attract lesbians :blush:

[CryFenril]

What about Dany/Irri in the books is just Dany trying to satisfy her physical needs taking advantage of a passive handmaiden but if made more romantic could bring some lesbian followers for the show and we are all talking about broadening demography.

That would be a major change in the storyline, and I for one wouldn't support it.

The fact that Dany takes Irri into bed with her for that purpose only twice (and the first time was an accident) illustrates that, while she has sexual desires, she is still not ready to form a loving commitment outside of her marriage to Drogo.

To change her into someone who IS ready for said commitment would throw a monkey wrench not only into her story with Jorah and Daario, but into her character as a whole.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

One interesting thing about sex in GOT (book and series) is how a lot of it is not meant to be 'hot' - for example we had wrinkly old guy/prostitute post-coital chat last episode. Some of the scenes are clearly meant to be titillating, but a lot of them are "slice of life" or actively repulsive. It's an interesting approach. I guess I'd like to see that continue. I don't really watch or read for the pretty people getting it on, but for the vast, intricate, realistic world. So, more gross sex please! :)

Yeah I agree. It's this which makes the sex in GoT much more interesting than a lot of shows. Most of the sex and romance is just... wrong for one reason or the other. But that adds to the interest!

Tyrion and Shae is something we'll be seeing a lot of. It's a pretty messed up relash if you think about it. He's trying to make Shae into his ex-wife and she's playing the part... but it goes way too far because Tyrion actually believes it despite himself. I do wonder how TV Shae will change this. She's clearly more assertive and not willing just to play the role Tyrion wants. Instead they seem to be making it into a much more traditional romance between equals. Which... it's really not since she's a whore?

In some ways I like the TV interpretation better. But they are Hollywoodising it, and removing some of the grossness inherent in the relationship in the books.

What about Dany/Irri in the books is just Dany trying to satisfy her physical needs taking advantage of a passive handmaiden but if made more romantic could bring some lesbian followers for the show and we are all talking about broadening demography.

I'm happy for anything with Dany in it, and they could make that scene hot for what it is. But... this scene I think it's very important that Dany is not satisfied with Irri as a lover after the fact, because she's actually a heterosexual woman and really wants to have sex with men. Which is why she's frustrated in the first place, since in her position being with a man would rob her of her power and independence. I sincerely hope they don't have Irri and Dany have any kind of long term lesbian relationship... since Dany is not a lesbian, or even bi.

Also what happens is Dany is masturbating, Irri wakes up and sees what she's doing, then finishes the job (so if anything Irri does the intiating). I'm actually a little concerned how it would come off on screen... so much of what was going on is what's in Dany's headspace at that time (Jorah had just kissed her, which confused and disturbed her, but also made her horny, and she's trying to figure out WhoTF she wants). They'll have to come up with some way to show Dany's sexual frustration or it might come across as "random lesbian scene #5938" (like that scene in Rome with Brutus' mom and Octavian's sister wahh????).

[CryFenril]

I hope I won't get myself flamed for saying this, but I simply must qualify my arguments here by saying something that might be a wee bit unpopular.

I think classifying fans of the book as "male fans" or "female fans" is an artificial division, and one that really doesn't enhance discussion of the series at all. For every stereotypical "male" fan, there are a horde of un-stereotypical ones, and the same for the "female" fans.

We are all fans, first and foremost, because of our love for the books. I, for example, am a female reader who finds the sex kind of "meh", and the politics/conflicts to be deliciously juicy and enjoyable. I'd be more prone to divide the audience into "mature" and "immature", rather than along gender lines.

My biggest concern with this "shipping" crossover isn't that we're seeing input from predominantly "female fans" - in fact, I'm glad this is a series that reaches both genders equally.

My concern is that "shipping" fans have a tendency, through fanfic and vociferous squeeeeeing, to hijack the original story and force it into channels that they prefer. GRRM has already expressed his opinion on fanfic, and I agree with him.

And yet, these "fans" persist in creating a staggering amount of material that the author himself has declared is distasteful. The idea of pandering to a small but vocal subset of fans who want to rewrite the books to fit their rules and desires bothers me more than a little. In short, I fear the "immature" influence.

I don't deny that this same subset is fully capable of contributing sincere, serious, and intelligent insights into more "canon" discussions - but the freight of potential immature "I want it this way!" story distractions that is likely to come along with them is, in my humblest of opines, a dangerous possibility.

I welcome any and all discussion of the books and series that lends insight and enjoyment to members, even if it's contentious at times. Any new blood with intelligent discourse to offer this long-standing and highly-thought-of forum is a good thing. And so far, for the most part, that is precisely what this influx has been.

But the idea of being overrun by fanfic afficionados is terrifying to me.

I picture a horde of Dothraki screamers mounted on incessantly-yapping Chihuahuas, carrying bright pink glittery swords and banners covered with hearts...

[Fate's Bitch]

As the author of the post that's getting the most criticism from ONTD, I thank Ran for not deleting it. I knew that discussing other forums' moderation policies was forbidden, but didn't realize that that extended to any discussion of specific forums. I apologize for not understanding that, and changed my ways once I read Ran's earlier post in the thread.

I suspect it's a hopeless task, but I'll also try defending myself (and, moderators, please allow me this one last grace). Yes, I was mocking those GoT "party posts", but I was defending them and their posters, too. Heck, any such post shows that they are the first to mock their own intense attachments to their favorite actors and relationships. Far from wishing other forums would have more discussions on realpolitik in King's Landing or Arya's mental state, I think most such threads at Westeros.org and elsewhere are totally pointless--the same people going over the same points over and over and over again--and never read them. It is a good thing for other forums to not get stuck in Westeros.org's same ol' worn-down grooves.

The (female) original poster's point, one I completely agree with but obviously failed to properly communicate in my clumsy male manner, is that different fan groups have different motivations for their attraction to the world of Westeros. The (probably young female) person who is driven by curiosity from reading a GoT party post on another forum into watching the show, falls in love with it, rushes out to buy the books, and along the way posts hilarious animated GIFs of their favorite actor's abs is as legitimate a fan as the (more likely male than the first type) person who attends conventions, loves fantasy novels, and found ASoIAF at the book store first. The first fan type should absolutely not be viewed as a bunch of airheaded rubes just along for the ride while "real" fans benefit from their willingness to spend money ; the post comparing them to House Frey offended me, too. (If I'm to be criticized, at least do it with my own posts!)

That said, from HBO's perspective all fans, regardless of origin or motivation, are potential subscribers and DVD purchasers. As I stated elsewhere in the thread there's nothing wrong with expecting the show's producers to continue to cater to the first fan type in my example by depicting upcoming canon relationships like Jon/Ygritte and Robb/Jeyne in 'shipping-friendly ways, and since I want more seasons of Game of Thrones that's a good thing in my view.

Thanks for this. An an ONTD poster, I'm gratified to read your explanation. Although I would hesitate to put such a stark delineation between fangirls and the more serious fans. As others in this thread have demonstrated, there are several members of ONTD who are also members of Westeros. One can participate in both spheres of discussion. I don't think it's useful to differentiate between the fans who are interested in relationships (of whatever stripe) between characters and those that are interested in the politics because there is a significant overlap between the two.

[Brienne the Beauty]

But the idea of being overrun by fanfic afficionados is terrifying to me.

We'll never get fanfic here. It is banned (AFAIK) due to GRRM's wishes. So to avoid fanfic, avoid the communities that make it. It's not hard.

For instance, I am a big fan of Doctor Who. Since it appeals to a young age group it has a lot of youngsters writing terrible fanfic. So when I want to discuss Doctor Who, I don't go to a sparkly fanfic blog, but a more serious forum rather like this one which skews more to the older/discussion-oriented end of things, with fanfic relegated to a nicely ignorable forum.

Anyway, I don't think GOT is the kind of show to appeal to the kind of fangirl you are thinking of. It's too nasty, too bloody, too cynical, too mature. Immature fangirls don't descend randomly on a fandom. It has to be the type to appeal to them anyway. For instance, you'll find a lot more sparklypony fanfic out there for Harry Potter than Battlestar Galactica, because Harry Potter appeals to that kind of person more than Battlestar Galactica.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I hope I won't get myself flamed for saying this, but I simply must qualify my arguments here by saying something that might be a wee bit unpopular.

...

I picture a horde of Dothraki screamers mounted on incessantly-yapping Chihuahuas, carrying bright pink glittery swords and banners covered with hearts...

Look, I'm not going to flame you, but I think you're definitely guilty of the same stereotyping that many of the other posters have said.

From what I can gather, a lot of the fans who reject Westeros.org and use other venues to express their love of the series do so because they feel there's an unhealthy undercurrent of sexism and really outright hatred for anything that is slightly outside the 100% canon-canon among the posters here.

Obviously its not everyone and there are a cadre of great, old-school Westeros posters that try to keep things civil and use reasoned discussion. But look at any thread about Dany, Sansa, or Cat, and compare that to any thread about basically any male character. Every thread about Dany, Sansa, or Cat eventually is overtaken by accusations that they are stupid whores who screw everything up and only get anything because of the much superior men in their lives. Please show me one Robb thread where people randomly jump in an accuse him of never doing anything for himself because it was all Catelyn and The Blackfish (while I've seen this argument made it's only ever been in response to some out of the blue attack against Dany or Cat).

A lot of people that reject Westeros.org just hate this rabid subset of haters who never back down and never allow the discussion to turn back to what might be good about Dany/Cat/Sansa. They want a place where they know that even if people disagree about certain characters, it's all in good fun, and the mood can be instantly lightened by posting a silly gif. I think Westeros could use a little mood lightening myself from time to time despite having posted here for like the last 5 years.

As for shipping/non-canon etc... There seem to be very few fans even in other venues that take this stuff as seriously as you seem to fear (DIE FOR MY SHIP). In fact the whole point is that it's fluffy and silly fun. If someone makes a sparkly gif of Robb and Jon staring longingly at each other, that's about 95% tongue in cheek and 5% serious. You have to kind of understand the humor there before you can really judge it. I don't think anyone has said on any of the forums that they will stop watching if Robb and Jon never kiss (???). Rather the real attitude under the surface is still keep everything canon as possible.

[CryFenril]

Anyway, I don't think GOT is the kind of show to appeal to the kind of fangirl you are thinking of. It's too nasty, too bloody, too cynical, too mature. Immature fangirls don't descend randomly on a fandom. It has to be the type to appeal to them anyway. For instance, you'll find a lot more sparklypony fanfic out there for Harry Potter than Battlestar Galactica, because Harry Potter appeals to that kind of person more than Battlestar Galactica.

Hee hee hee, seen the vids on Youtube yet? Just search for "Dany", "Jorah", "Robb", or "Jon", and look at the results. The number of "oh my gosh, these two should totally get together, here's my music video of their best scenes together, isn't it awesome" results is staggering, to say the least.

I'll reiterate, to be safe - I am not accusing our most recent influx of peoples of being such fans. So far, they're wonderful. I just smell the potential in the summer air, and it makes me cringe.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Hee hee hee, seen the vids on Youtube yet? Just search for "Dany", "Jorah", "Robb", or "Jon", and look at the results. The number of "oh my gosh, these two should totally get together, here's my music video of their best scenes together, isn't it awesome" results is staggering, to say the least.

There will always be some, for any fandom. I'm sure you can find vids like that for BSG, too. You can probably find them for Springwatch. :)

I'm pretty sure that 99% of those vids are basically jokes.

[Xanderpanda]

There will always be some, for any fandom. I'm sure you can find vids like that for BSG, too. You can probably find them for Springwatch. :)

I'm pretty sure that 99% of those vids are basically jokes.

Reminds me of the Jeff/Annie from Community vid that the writers ended up doing a spoof of in Season 2. It was classic.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Hee hee hee, seen the vids on Youtube yet? Just search for "Dany", "Jorah", "Robb", or "Jon", and look at the results. The number of "oh my gosh, these two should totally get together, here's my music video of their best scenes together, isn't it awesome" results is staggering, to say the least.

I'll reiterate, to be safe - I am not accusing our most recent influx of peoples of being such fans. So far, they're wonderful. I just smell the potential in the summer air, and it makes me cringe.

Again, that stuff is tongue in cheek, with just a kernel of truth. So, it's harmless fun. It's no more meaningful than all the threads here about e.g. who would win if Jaime fought the Mountain before he got his hand chopped off. Obviously that'll never happen, but is there something evil and wrong about speculating?

I think Dany/Jorah is an interesting example to make, because almost all of those who follow it actually know what's going to happen (and certainly wouldn't want that to change). Yet it's still a (doomed) romance and so it's got a lot of potential to appeal to romance fans (it's a partial aversion of a very common romance trope). Just because they'll never end up together doesn't mean that it's not fun to post pics/vids of them almost kissing or Jorah giving her smouldering looks. People like sexual tension no matter the outcome and we'll get LOADS of that next season and in season 3.

[Kit]

Female college student. I lurk on Westeros a lot because the fan theories are pretty awesome. I also like GIFs of characters/scenes/etc, both the more serious and the more absurd. The TV show is beautifully shot and has gorgeous costumes, and these lend themselves to some really lovely images, as well as, yes, some memelike images featuring Stupid Ned Stark or Hipster Jon. I started reading ASoIaF after accidentally stumbling upon it in a bookstore on campus last fall and after that discovered the whole TV series thing. I've enjoyed the TV series; it will, however, never replace the books for me. I am much more excited for the release of ADwD than I ever was for the show, much as I've enjoyed watching the show.

I think the characterizations of "fangirls" assumes that these people are a) 14 years old, B) all female, and c) only fans of the show. 90% of the people I've met elsewhere on the internet who are into ASoIaF have read the books, are at the very least 17 or 18, and hold plenty of discussions about characters that are more than just JON SNOW IS A HOTTIE. The people I've met who are into the show and haven't read the books yet are also getting into the books. And not all the people I know IRL who got into the show without having read the books are female teenagers; one is a male teenager and one is a 40-year-old male teacher who's now reading the books and, so far, really enjoying them.

To me, the people who are going to be serious in the long-term about discussing this fandom, and bothering to make GIFs about it, and watching the show, are all going to be people who enjoy it for what it is--a vast, sprawling fantasy series with immensely complicated politics and descriptions of violence and all types of sex. No 14-16 year old tweeny bopper is going to be seriously involved because 1) even in the show there's a lot of politics and posturing, and it's not a show you can just casually watch in the background, and 2) even i the show there is still a LOT of sex of all sorts of questionable morality. The teenyboppers that people fear are going to be investing most of their time in watching PRETTY LITTLE LIARS and GOSSIP GIRL and the like and not in journeying through Westeros, simply because the time and attention required up front to really get this fandom is not what the fans people fear are interested in, even taking into account shirtless men and "fierce" women. Sure, there are going to be a few people who watch solely for Jon Snow's abs, but these are going to be vastly outnumbered by people who are far more involved in the series than that, and even on sites where there are macros and GIFs galore, the people solely invested in the sex factor is going to be small. Were the series to turn simply into a lot of sex and shirtless people and lose all the nuance, the GIF and macro-makers and people who ship various pairs (not nearly so serious as people might fear) would be just as disappointed as people who stick to discussion on Westeros, because ultimately any person who can get that involved in GRRM's world is someone who is in it for all these nuances and details and for whom beautiful bodies are a secondary GIF-producing bonus.

[Soapbubbles]

All fans are crazy in their own way. :D That's what makes it great.

Hey, could anyone please provide a link to GRRM's opinion on fanfics? I've heard about it, but I want to see it. And these forums are still very new to me.

[Xanderpanda]

All fans are crazy in their own way. :D That's what makes it great.

Hey, could anyone please provide a link to GRRM's opinion on fanfics? I've heard about it, but I want to see it. And these forums are still very new to me.

Don't have his exact link but he has mentioned it in a few posts on his Not A Blog

Edit: here you go

http://grrm.livejournal.com/151914.html

and

http://grrm.livejournal.com/152340.html

[Fate's Bitch]

Hee hee hee, seen the vids on Youtube yet? Just search for "Dany", "Jorah", "Robb", or "Jon", and look at the results. The number of "oh my gosh, these two should totally get together, here's my music video of their best scenes together, isn't it awesome" results is staggering, to say the least.

I'll reiterate, to be safe - I am not accusing our most recent influx of peoples of being such fans. So far, they're wonderful. I just smell the potential in the summer air, and it makes me cringe.

Why would they? Different forums cater to different aspects of the show. If there is already a space for the kinds of fans you worry about to interact with the show in that way, why would they come to a forum that is tailored towards more serious discussion? Especially if that forum is hostile to those aspects of fandom? Fanfic isn't allowed here. Gifs and pictures aren't allowed here unless they're linked.