[BOOK SPOILERS] Sex/Romance: What Fans Wanna See in Future Seasons [MEGA SPOILERS

[howland_reed]

Gilly was lactating during her romp with Sam?

To be honest, the only thing I remember from their sex scene in AFFC was: FAT PINK MAST.

Thanks GRRM for burning that description into my hippocampus.

[Asha—Not Yara!]

I mostly agree with this.

Although if HBO want to up their random nudity quota I wouldn't complain much if they invent a reason for rakharo to lose his clothes, preferably permanently.

Not a bad idea at all. Come on D&D don't disappoint us this time! We need a much higher hot naked male quota this season. Last season's wasn't nearly enough compared to the all the hot naked women.

Jaime should totally be shirtless during his captivity; they don't need to make an excuse for it. It should be a crime for someone as hot as him to be fully clothed all the time anyway.

[Sixshells]

Come now. Fanfiction.net has 2.2 million registered users as of 2010. Are you really saying that socio-cultural gender training and coercion is today preventing millions of men from fulfilling their hidden desires to write and post, uh, Megatron/Panthro/Brainy Smurf erotic fanfic?

Of course they are able to if they wish to. And some men do. However they are not raised in a way encouraging the wish to do so while women are. This is why I compared it to to male prevalence in corporate boards, or in politics, etc, as it is also about what people are trained to yearn for. Education and social environment have an influence on what are people's ambitions, desires and inclinations, so gender biases in education will reflect later on. Girls are raised with great tolerance on emotions and are in fact encouraged to seek out romance. Boys are not. I think it shows in fanfiction demographics.

Ginia Bellafante's terrible Game of Thrones review made me laugh and groan in equal measure, but one of the ways it made me laugh was her assumption that women couldn't be interested in fantasy. As a guy I've always preferred science fiction over fantasy (ASoIAF is pretty much the first fantasy work I've ever been able to finish except The Hobbit years and years ago). A lifetime's worth of anecdotal evidence told me that most guys shared my preference while, contra Bellafante, most women preferred fantasy over SF. You may call it the artifact of socio-cultural gender training, but I call it pretty darn obvious at any place in which the two subgenres intersect, whether rec.arts.sf.written or io9.com or the local bookstore's SF/F section or the Science Fiction Book Club's offerings or the comments at tor.com's blog posts.

As for my own personal experience I found that even though there were more men fans of SF I didn't find the fantasy fans were mostly female. It was rather gender-equivalent. But what do I know, I didn't make any statistical study to ascertain it. I don't think Bellafonte's argument was that most women preferred SF, that being said.

Again, read the above-referenced posts at ONTD or FanForum, two Internet communities that have gone utterly (and unexpectedly) bonkers over Game. The vast, vast, vast majority of posters are young women.

It seems natural to me since the ONTD community at least is founded around young women identity. Hardly an evidence to me. It would be more interesting to do an actual study around fan communities constituted around ASoIaF or GoT, or on the viewers statistics themselves.

They do not spend much time discussing whether Syrio lives. Although they are aware of and enjoy "Ned Stark is dumb" Internet memes, they do not spend much time debating the pros and cons of his failure to practice realpolitik in King's Landing, or the legality of executing the Night's Watch deserter. Rather, in the form of several thousands comments per each Game of Thrones-tagged "party post", they discuss how Robb Stark is the "King of the North of My Thighs" and will "Robb Me of My Hymen",[#] how much they "stan" Jon as the emo hipster of their dreams, how Littlefinger is both creepy pervert #1 and surprisingly attractive, how Joffrey must be violently killed after being slapped for many hours for the sake of humanity, and how Dany is cute with her dragons and being so strong after having survived the death of her "bb" Drago. Only a fool of a showrunner would not seek to appeal to this constituency--one that is completely new to HBO[!]--by making Jon/Ygritte and Robb/Jeyne the dreamiest of dreamy, 'shippable couples, and neither Benioff nor Weiss is a fool.

As I said, I do not deny that women are raised to have female motivations and ways of thinking and men male ones. Actually that was rather my point. What I am saying is, people are rased to correspond to gender representations, so it is harly surprising to see people conforming to thoses representations. What I am also saying is, each time someone acts mindlessly, or out of interest (as the HBO dudes do), it reinforces those representations, thus is sexist. It acts as a feedback loop.

Bottom line is, women do not "naturally" mostly come out as more interested by relationships and singing "Robb Me of My Hymen" [*], no more than men are mostly "naturally" more interested in the politics of KL or the legitimity of the different "kings". It is all about conditioning, and they say the first step to freedom is to realize it.

[*]Yeah, that was a good one.

I think its pretty clear that I'm not like Ginia, making gross assumptions about women's innate ability to only read ASOIAF for one thing, and the most stereotypical thing at that (relationships). If I thought like her, I wouldn't be here, wearing my Targaryen shirt bought on HBO.com and browsing Westeros.org. Also, my argument about how women "read" the series is VERY different from Ginia's. When she says the sex on "Game of Thrones is boy fiction patronizingly turned out to reach the population’s other half," she's taking a negative, calculating view of sex on the show. Like its something the producers tossed in to make women happy and attract a bigger audience. That's grossly stereotypical.

It was also untrue, as they obviouly tossed it in to cater to the needs of the male audience (see what I did there ?)

Anyway it actually struck me more as someone who had never seen an HBO show before.

Here, I'm taking a positive, fan-focused view of sex in the show that's grounded in the characters we love, knowing that sex is also a big part of the novels. So I wanted to start a discussion about how female-focused fandom is reacting to the show's sex/relationships in ways that Ginia can't even comprehend. If you find that sexist, I'm sorry but I want to talk about this amazing SHOW, not the political correctness of my post.

I am all for discussing about sex and relationships in the show, but why the female-focused fondom ? Don't men also have a say about what they think of the relationships ?

Sorry if I come as overly focused on PC (because to me it's not a question of PC) and that it started a sideways discussion about that, but that's the part I'm being confused here, especially after your pointing out how stereotypical that review was.

[beehives]

Bottom line is, women do not "naturally" mostly come out as more interested by relationships and singing "Robb Me of My Hymen" [*], no more than men are mostly "naturally" more interested in the politics of KL or the legitimity of the different "kings". It is all about conditioning, and they say the first step to freedom is to realize it. I am all for discussing about sex and relationships in the show, but why the female-focused fondom ? Don't men also have a say about what they think of the relationships ? Sorry if I come as overly focused on PC (because to me it's not a question of PC) and that it started a sideways discussion about that, but that's the part I'm being confused here, especially after your pointing out how stereotypical that review was.

Sixshells, I'm *so* with you about the social construction of gender--its an important point for any discussion like this. I think we're on the same side here. I just hope that's clear. Since you did bring up a need to study ONTD empirically, I think its a great idea. But you would have to make several claims about the material realities of what's going on over there, and to do that you have to talk in localized generalities about how women audiences are interacting with the show in that particular setting. That's what all sociological writing is like - you have to talk about people in groups/trends. And I noticed a trend in how women at ONTD were responding to Game of Thrones, the show. So I mentioned one way to keep this community happy--they want a playground for their 'ships.

For example, on these boards I've brought up possible ways to ship Dany and Jon at the end of the series, but most people didn't even want to *entertain* the idea because it was "unrealistic" to the story. But I'm saying, like, who cares if its realistic, lets fantasize about how they hook up! In shocking detail. LOL.

I said in my original post that anyone could join in here! Please! Any males out there in lust for Jaime? Maybe your attraction to Catelyn disturbs and excites you? Got the hots for Hot Pie? I don't really care, but sex/desire/romance/shipping is ONE WAY among MANY that people engage with SF/fantasy. And the people doing that in droves are young teen girls. And me. And all the great posters in this thread! Ect, ect...

Oh and I third naked Jaime. WTF tied up but no shirt off? C'mon!

[TMWNN]

Nevertheless, here I am, challenging the long-time ASOIAF fans to contend with female fans like me who love this aspect of the story. I read the books in 2005 and hoped for a forum like ONTD way back then, but it didn't exist.

As an ONTD veteran, can you convey to the rest of Westeros.org your sense of just how utterly and giddily bananas ONTD posters will become once Jon/Ygritte and Robb/Jeyne actually appear on screen? As merely an amused bystander I fear I cannot fully do so.

PS - What's with the hate toward Westeros.org from other ONTD posters? They view this site as sexist and misogynistic, I think because of various anti-Sansa threads?

Also its kind of subversive to know that GRRM's rules on fanfic are being broken as we speak...its all over tumblr.

Right. Few are aware of and fewer care about Martin's anti-fanfic views.

Until recently Westeros.org was the only meaningful hub of ASoIAF fandom. It had semi-official imprimatur from Elio and Linda's cooperation with Martin, and everyone was on the same page regarding the leading fan theories, or the latest So Spake Martin updates. The TV show has of course triggered colossal growth here. Many, many new fans however, do not care to endlessly debate exactly what happened at the Tower of Joy, or just how far the Wall is from King's Landing, or whether Arya is psychotic (again, they'd probably be offended by the very question). They love the show, they love its handsome, heroic boys and beautiful, powerful girls, they love 'shipping the two, and the significant subset who then go on to read the books love the books (but, again, usually without feeling the need to debate the metaphysics of Westeros). There's absolutely nothing wrong with that approach to fandom.

[beehives]

As an ONTD veteran, can you convey to the rest of Westeros.org your sense of just how utterly and giddily bananas ONTD posters will become once Jon/Ygritte and Robb/Jeyne actually appear on screen? As merely an amused bystander I fear I cannot fully do so.

Oh yeah total bananas!!! Just, complete and utter teen lust carnage in the biggest party post ever. All the wet dreams of teen women will be written in graphic detail with glittery text, and all bandwidth in the universe will be used to create animated GIFs of Rob/Jon in throws of passion. And that's the tamest thing I can think of off the top off my head. It's kind of glorious. They've even created their own "House."

On the other hand, another ship that is getting a lot of CAPS LOCK excitement is Arya/Gendry. Joe Dempsie is from Skins, a show about teen sexuality also popular on ONTD. There's some hesitancy there to ship them because he's older, but that's not gonna stop them.

PS - What's with the hate toward Westeros.org from other ONTD posters? They view this site as sexist and misogynistic, I think because of various anti-Sansa threads?

Oh, yeah. You're right, it started in a Sansa thread (link to thread) and now they advise everyone to stay away from here. There are a lot of Sansa fans out there and this website hasn't been kind to her (or her mom for that matter, whom they also love cuz "SHE'S FIERCE"). ONTD thinks Westeros.org is "sexist and gross." To be fair, I also get the same vibe from the commenters at WiC whenever a new female cast member is announced. Instead of dismissing them I think the community might want to think about where that sentiment is coming from...

Right. Few are aware of and fewer care about Martin's anti-fanfic views.

Its happening on Twitter too, with almost ALL of the characters given Twitter pages. They tweet the character's thoughts with a bit of lighthearted sexual roleplay. The most popular are @DanyTargaryen @JonBastSnow and @TheRobbStark. Surely some of you on Westeros are behind these...

We've also got amazing tumblrs, all of which I can't list here (because there are HUNDREDS), but a good place to start is http://fuckyeahgameofthrones.tumblr.com/

It's such a great time to be an ASOIAF fan!! =)

[King_In_The_North]

About Robb/Jeyne: They did say that since in ACOK we only saw Robb in, like, 1 chapter they'll give him more screen-time this season instead of just hearing that he did stuff in the Westerlands. I find it hard to imagine they'll omit the Robb/Jeyne part.

[Raksha the Demon]

I'd love to see book-and-TV Gendry & Arya end up together in seven years or so; but I don't think it will happen. Arya might survive, because I think GRRM is fond of her and knows the majority of readers are fond of her too.

The actors playing Robb and Jon don't do anything for me; but the characters in the books didn't do too much for me either. Jason Momoa (who I loved in Stargate: Atlantis) as Drogo, Sean Bean as Ned, Peter Dinklage as Tyrion, Harry Lloyd as Viserys, are all seriously either hot, or magnetic, or both. Of course, I don't read the novels just for romance, even if I am female. For me, romance is welcome if it flows naturally out of the narrative and plot and is not overdone. And I'm not a big fan of protracted sextaposition/sex scenes.

[The Marquis de Leech]

[rant]

Wow I'd say it sounds like someone (you and this AV club person) have some sexual hangups, rather than GRRM.

I do think it's indisputable that GRRM does have something of a nipple fetish though.

[Aegonmyface]

Heh, that ONTD link is hell on a web page for me. I tend to get overwhelmed by the use of more than a single font, and there's so much glitter, so many animated gifs, so many emotes. My eyes, they burns my precious.

On the other hand, at least they keep it short and to the point, unlike you wordy sociology majors posting in this here thread. :smoking:

In actuality, I view the glittery-font abusing young female viewers to be kind of like an alliance with House Frey. I don't really look at the world in anywhere close to the same way they do, but I really want to keep them happy so we have enough viewers to greenlight season three, where all the really good shit goes down.

So bring on the added romance. I'll quietly endure it just as well as I do while being forced to watch a romantic comedy on "date night" to get to the payoff later.

I do refuse to accept that my fiery hatred of Catelyn somehow makes me sexist, however. Come on girls, don't take that from me.

[Ran]

Folks, we have a standing policy to keep discussions of other forums to an absolute minimum. We're glad other forums exist, but we're not the place to analyze, praise, or criticize them. If you want to talk generally about different fan-bases, that's fine, but please leave specific communities out of it. We do this as a "Do onto others as you would have them do onto you" sort of courtesy, because communities are very specific things and outsiders may take different things out of them than participants see.

[Lady Blackfish]

Heh, it's not like "girl fandom" doesn't have its share of problematic views re. gender.

Re. romance in the show, I don't mind it being amped up compared to the books, but I still want the spirit of the books to remain true if possible. For example I really don't think Dany and Jorah are supposed to be unweird, Jorah's definitely a Nice Guy and that's interesting even if it isn't romantic (because it isn't romantic!). Personally I'd rather he not be bowdlerized, no matter how sexy Iain Glen is (and don't get me wrong, I agree he's very sexy). I have nothing against romance or shipping or related things and I've liked shows that have them in a formulaic quota-like sense, but I don't think every show has to be like that. Male and female fanservice should be equal, but there's such limited screentime and so much plot and so many characters and a lot of drama that I just ask that it not take any time away from those or water them down.

Jon and Ygritte and Robb and Jeyne are pretty much the same basic kind of romance, tragic doomed young lovers (in one the girl dies, in the other the boy dies). If there is ample space to include Robb and Jeyne, that's fine with me, but again, ten episodes is not that much, as we've learned. We have less exposition in S2, I think, but I'm more looking forward to the depth of the characters and themes being restored in S2 compared to S1, so for me Robb and Jeyne, while I wouldn't mind them, is fairly down on the list of priorities. Screen time is so precious, has to be rationed out carefully.

[Linda]

I find the idea utterly appalling that the producers should cater to any fanbase other than those who want to see as faithful an adaption as possible. Yes, I can see playing up certain existing storylines more -- they already have with Renly & Loras -- but it should all be balanced. I don't want more romance for the girls (and boys) who like that or more violence for the boys (and girls) who like that. I want as faithful an adaption as possible, both in terms of what actually happens and the actual feel of the show. George does a great job of balancing many different themes and aspects, in part through the multiple PoVs, and I want to see the show do the same.

I love fantasy with romantic storylines, but its just one of the aspects of fantasy I love. I'd hate to see the show gravitate in any particular direction. As far as this forum goes, it is of course open to both male and female fans. Perhaps we could stand a few more threads about who's hotter as opposed to who's the better swordsman, but an excess of either is equally annoying. But leave anything pink and sparkly elsewhere. Not to mention any talk of fan fiction.

[Aegonmyface]

Wasn't the OP making the point, in part, that "more relationship exploration" is perhaps just as appealing as "more romance"?

It would be very easy, for example, to enhance the "relationship" aspect between Sansa and Sandor without turning it into a romance. In fact, I think that would be very loyal to the book.

In fact, isn't implied interest traditionally just as appealing as obtained? Look at shows like Castle, where's there is a ton of romantic tension between characters but nothing ever happens.

[Brienne the Beauty]

Male fans definitely "ship" - they just do so in a male way. Who came up with R+L=J? Male-dominated fandom pre-show, of course. I'm not going to say that it was either a man or a woman that first figured it out, but the theory was definitely spread by male fans. Just because they didn't squeee or make animated gifs doesn't mean they weren't "shipping."

I've also talked with plenty of male fans here who are interested in the various couples issues, such as what attracts Jaime to Brienne, or why Tyrion fools himself where Shae is concerned. Men are interested in "shipping" alright, they just don't tend to write reams of fanfic about it.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

I think it's most interesting to consider this issue in terms of what does the change of media platform bring to the material?

Here's where the main differences I think lie:

1) Loss of PoV structure:

this allows us to see every character, rather than just a narrow interpretation of the character that we see in the book. There are many many relationships which in the book are strongly colored a certain way because we only see characters from one perspective.

2) Visual vs. Text:

Visual media lets us read a lot of non-verbal communication directly. We can figure out what a character is thinking or feeling by watching them see someone, something we wouldn't see in the book. It's a potent way to communicate sexual or romantic thoughts characters are having without having to actually change the source material.

(I think a lot of confusion and controversy about the sex and romantic relationships in asoiaf comes from the fact that we have never seen such a relationship between two PoV characters, except for Cat and Ned. We only see one side of a pair, along with their particular biases about the relationship, and it takes two to tango. I think this is interesting, but it won't, for obvious reasons, work very well on screen).

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

For example I really don't think Dany and Jorah are supposed to be unweird, Jorah's definitely a Nice Guy and that's interesting even if it isn't romantic (because it isn't romantic!).

I think that "Jorah is nothing more than an insecure bag of slop" is as much a caricature as "Jorah is Lancelot" or "Dany is a heartless harpy" would be.

Yeah he becomes insecure and pushy, eventually. Which is definitely self-defeating and not OK. But Dany does a pretty awful job of dealing with the situation, too. Jorah kisses her and basically proposes marriage but instead of dealing with the situation, she actively avoids seeing him for months until she finally tells him off in a somewhat not-nice way. I don't really blame her, she was confused about the situation clearly. But it was pretty passive-aggressive and not the most constructive way to handle things.

It's an interesting relationship because it was always doomed, because of the fact that both parties are flawed, complicated human beings. No way I would actually want them to change that aspect. I don't see any harm in the show playing up Jorah's feelings for Dany using the visual media, however. We will see more of him on screen than Dany does - why not take advantage of that?

[Linda]

R+L=J is a good example of the multi-faceted nature of ASoIaF. It interests some fans because they see a doomed romance, it interests some fans because they see a mystery, it interests some fans because its part of the elaborate history of the setting. And, of course, many fans are drawn to all these aspects.

I am very unhappy with its absence from the show. That does not mean I want to see more of Sansa and Sandor (admittedly, may because I loathe the Hound ;) than is justifiable for keeping the same balance within the story as before.

I personally don't like the idea of using the term "shipping" for any discussion of couples in a novel. It developed within a particular culture of fandom and it expresses itself in particular ways. But sure, I'll happily admit that my reluctance to see such a term applied to anything I might engage in relating to any series of books is that I wouldn't want to be associated with some of the ways that "shipping" expresses itself.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I find the idea utterly appalling that the producers should cater to any fanbase other than those who want to see as faithful an adaption as possible.

Personally, my preference is for a quality television programme over faithfulness. I have no problem at all with changes or added scenes as long as they are within the spirit of the thing (no aeroplanes, for instance), and enhance the storyline. Television and literature are very different media.

[King_In_The_North]

Maybe instead of Robb and Jeyne, they could have Robb sleeping with Ros while telling her all his super-secret battle plans. Then, consumed by shame, Robb marries Ros who then goes and sleeps with Walder Frey, and then they can say that this love triangle was the true cause for the Red Wedding! Just think of all the fangirls who'll love it!