Curious about Littlefinger?

[Drogo's beard]

Can anyone tell me why he is playing this game so hard? I'm really struggling to see exactly what he's trying to accomplish. Does he really believe that he's going to sit on the Iron Throne one day? Or does he just get off on causing trouble?

[FreeNightFalls]

Littlefinger is like... the most manipulative character I've come across lol I've read only 200 pages so far and I've no idea what's going to happen, but somehow, I believe everything comes from his undying desire / love for Cath. He is ambitious, that is obvious, and there is also Sansa... >_>

[Karo Vyrga]

Can anyone tell me why he is playing this game so hard? I'm really struggling to see exactly what he's trying to accomplish. Does he really believe that he's going to sit on the Iron Throne one day? Or does he just get off on causing trouble?

Littlefinger wants the Iron Throne. It's been alluded to a couple of times.

[Jory's Shade]

LF wants to rule the world because his low born status made him unworthy of his true love. His game of thrones is for a reckoning. He wants to rule to take out his anger on the realm. I consider him the antithesis of Davos.

[zmflavius]

Littlefinger wants the Iron Throne. It's been alluded to a couple of times.

A large piece of metal which not only is in itself hazardous to the user, but which by its nature also results in one essentially painting a bullseye on himself? Personally, I'm fairly certain LF is too smart to want the Iron Throne per se, though shadow control of the Seven Kingdoms is not too far off.

[Karo Vyrga]

A large piece of metal which not only is in itself hazardous to the user, but which by its nature also results in one essentially painting a bullseye on himself? Personally, I'm fairly certain LF is too smart to want the Iron Throne per se, though shadow control of the Seven Kingdoms is not too far off.

I can't argue with your logic, but what other position would wield him the power he seeks? Taking Jorys Shade's take into account, maybe all he wants to do is piss on all those who looked down on him in the past. If that's the case, then I can see him making a move to win Daenry's favor while helping her win the throne. He has a good plan to win the North's and the Vale's support; add this to Dorne's willingness to bring back Daenry's...........

[zmflavius]

I can't argue with your logic, but what other position would wield him the power he seeks? Taking Jorys Shade's take into account, maybe all he wants to do is piss on all those who looked down on him in the past. If that's the case, then I can see him making a move to win Daenry's favor while helping her win the throne. He has a good plan to win the North's and the Vale's support; add this to Dorne's willingness to bring back Daenry's...........

Virtually any weak monarch is a good place to start. I'm not so sure about Daenerys, any strong-willed monarch is apt to be a loose cannon, one who will be difficult to control. Of course, if he needs to, he'll probably just back the winning horse. I'm also not certain Ser Barristan would give him a good character. Of course, the moment Daenerys lands, opposition is likely to end abruptly, so for the moment, yes, I'd say Daenerys.

Of course, it is also true that he also held much of this indirect power under Robert, in a climate favorable to him. Someone as self-righteous as Dany is really not like to tolerate it. So, I think it most likely that he'll fight Dany, if possible, but only without burning bridges.

[Queen Beyond the Wall]

A large piece of metal which not only is in itself hazardous to the user, but which by its nature also results in one essentially painting a bullseye on himself? Personally, I'm fairly certain LF is too smart to want the Iron Throne per se, though shadow control of the Seven Kingdoms is not too far off.

I think he has already achieved pretty much that-shadow control of the 7 kingdoms. It was pretty apparent to me at the end of ASOS and throughout AFfC that he is the biggest mastermind behind the chaos happening in Westeros. He clearly gets a lot of satisfaction from manipulating his 'puppets'.

Personally I believe that Littlefiger has an secret megalomaniacal dream of becoming king so he can *finally* get back at those who underestimated him and put him down. He wants to be king and have Sansa love him (or at least appear to)...she is the closest he can come to Cat. Like the kid who was bullied in high school, he wants to get back at those who belittled him. In some ways, I don't blame him (despite him being more than a little creepy around Sansa).

[Timur Khal]

Well, I think he either wants shadow control, and, once he has it, might even forget himself and try and take the throne itself, just to insult all those who look down upon him. But we won't be sure until his plan to take the South becomes evident (military invasion would lean towards immediate direct power or perhaps very direct shadow control, but there are many other ways of going at it)

[Anaik of Rhoyne]

He is a strategist. He wants to be a player not a pawn, that much is obvious. As to wanting the throne for himself, at this point any sane person not completely deluded with thoughts of grandeur would not want to sit on the thrones themselves. My interpretation of what he is doing is more behind the scenes controlling of everyone's life.

There is also a psychological layer to his intentions. The highborn people playing the game may think that it was their will or gods that were the reason behind some game changing event, however they would not suspect Littlefinger, a man who is smaller in stature and claim, to be running the show. This is his sort of revenge for what he lost (Catelyn), and being bullied (by Brandon Stark) because he was not highborn. Thus, trying proving that wits matter more than Lannister gold, Tyrell influence, or physical strength.

I don't but that is just my two cents :D

[Kate Poem]

I believe Littlefinger wants control. He wanted RULE - as king or no-king, whatever. I worry for Sansa too. Their... relationship is... strange. Fake father/fake daughter, but... THESE kisses...

It is dangerous for her.

[the Houndini]

MY THOUGHTS ON OUR BOY LITTLEFINGER

Just like Varys, he always has multiple games running at once, thus his ability to play so many (possible) moves in advance. I would seriously doubt that with both their masterful positioning either would ever have an actual desire to sit the Iron Throne directly. And why should they? We've all seen first hand what happens to those who try... At least LF still has his balls and cock.

The question becomes what are Littlefinger's real motivations? Power? Wealth? Love? Respect? Revenge?

Wealth - He seems to have no trouble making money from nothing. Its been stated many times by various people, mainly by the most powerful people in Westeros on the Small Council. He's got that locked down already. Once he's sent from KL he is in fact sorely missed by the crown. Which appears to suit him just fine. He just doesn't seem to simply be driven by greed for more money.

Power - The next logical thing to look at would be the lust for power, but aside from a basic compulsion to succeed, survive and feed his ego he doesn't seem to make the choices that would net him the strongest foothold of power while wiping away his competition. He could have easily helped Ned in GoT and:

1) Done "the right thing".

2) Removed the Lannisters from power.

3) Proven his worth over all other advisors (Varys, Pycelle, etc..)

4) Had Ned and Cat forever in his debt and gone down as a great savior and hero of the realm.

Love and/or Respect -

I put these 2 together because in fact the actions that would serve one would accomplish the other. Even his role in Joff's wedding is done in secret so no props are coming his way due to it. Seemingly the only personal advantage he gains from it is possible good standing with the Tyrells, which is of no real use yet because they can't take credit for anything publicly. They also can elevate him to a seat of power higher than the one he already has as Lord Paramount of the Trident. Also the only person who he has ever expressed any real interest (besides his damn self) is Cat, and he didn't help her or her family on several different occasions. He does ultimately "save" Sansa, but only after letting her family bedestroyed and basically allowing her to be manipulated and tortured by the Lannisters, only ending with the framing of her and her "husband".

Revenge - He kind of HATES EVERYONE. Or at least holds everyone in some form of contempt. (Even his beloved Cat.) We know he has that giant chip on his shoulder from his youth and what i see is a person today rotten to the core by jealous insecurity fueled by a massive ego. He hasn't spent his life trying to become something to prove his worth to fit in. But instead a man who has let a 20 year slight become a full blown revenge plot on everyone. Which in most cases might lead some to think he desires the throne itself.

I believe this can be seen in his dealings with Tyrion. I do not know if he had reasons prior to the knife in GoT to implicate Tyrion, but from there his pursuit of disgracing him seems to escalate. And the only reasons seem to be that Tyrion sort of caught on to him and plays along in their little game.

I thought that maybe his motivation early on was to simply destroy Ned to get to Cat. So that he could have her. It didnt work out, but he doesn't seem to upset by it. So that was wrong. Then I thought maybe he just wanted status so he would side with Lannisters because they were already in power, and that he thought they were stronger than the Starks, and would ultimately be victorious. Didn't matter, as soon as they were settled in KL he started picking the Lannisters apart and making secret side deals with the Tyrells. For what? Because the all powerful Lannister clan thought they were superior and couldn't outwit them. I guess we all question his motives with Sansa. Not simply because hes trying to smash that maiden cunny. I don't think that's it. It could be part of it, but his ego might explain that he wants a protege. Someone that can appreciate all his hard ass work, someone to show behind the curtain for THE BIG REVEAL.

In the end i think EGO is what drives our boy Littlefinger. And i guess in the end we hope its ego that will be his undoing...

I do wonder what his knowledge of the events outside of westeros are. He hasn't mentioned much.

WHAT A SICK F--K!

PS:

I do not believe that Varys and him are co-architects of some grand PRO-REALM/TARG plan. Varys even says he has no idea what LF is after...

I do not believe he will be redeemed.

[lyvyathan]

Love and/or Respect -

I put these 2 together because in fact the actions that would serve one would accomplish the other. Even his role in Joff's wedding is done in secret so no props are coming his way due to it. Seemingly the only personal advantage he gains from it is possible good standing with the Tyrells, which is of no real use yet because they can't take credit for anything publicly. They also can elevate him to a seat of power higher than the one he already has as Lord Paramount of the Trident. Also the only person who he has ever expressed any real interest (besides his damn self) is Cat, and he didn't help her or her family on several different occasions. He does ultimately "save" Sansa, but only after letting her family bedestroyed and basically allowing her to be manipulated and tortured by the Lannisters, only ending with the framing of her and her "husband".

Petyr does have a motive for removing Joffrey - the boy is turning out to be a monster king. And what do monster kings do? Well the memories of Aerys2 are still fresh.

If Petyr remained the Master of the Coin or just a freshly minted Lord of a province which bore him no love - he would still be exposed to the political backstabbing of Cersei and Joffrey.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Petyr does have a motive for removing Joffrey - the boy is turning out to be a monster king. And what do monster kings do? Well the memories of Aerys2 are still fresh.

If Petyr remained the Master of the Coin or just a freshly minted Lord of a province which bore him no love - he would still be exposed to the political backstabbing of Cersei and Joffrey.

Here's the thing. I don't believe he was trying to take out Joffrey. Joffrey seemed to play well into his plans. I think it was Tyrion he was after. I don't think it was the wine that was poisoned but the pie. The pie was meant for Tyrion who was a threat to LF. Joff being the bullying idiot that he was ate Tyrion's pie. I think Joff realized in the end and that is why he pointed at Tyrion trying to tell him that the poison was meant for him.

Later when Sansa asks LF why he killed Joffrey, he gave her an evasive answer. IIRC, he said something like "sometimes you have to do things to keep your enemies off balance."

Prior to the dinner the Queen of Thorns told Sansa that she would be traveling the next day and invited Sansa to join her as if she were unmarried. Why would the Tyrells kill Joffrey before Maergery got pregnant? If they wanted to secure the throne they would have waited a few months before killing Joff.

Sorry it's way off topic, but I think LF feels threatened by Tyrion.

[Horza]

There's a fair whack of evidence for it being the Tyrells:

- the Queen of Thorns with Margaery sounds out Sansa about Joffrey and his rumoured cruelty, taking pains not to be overheard. Despite the horrible truth they seem fairly unconcerned.

- the missing stone in the hairnet, the jewels of which look very similar to the Strangler - Olenna has a prime opportunity to take it, Sansa notices it missing and Olenna also gets close to the wine jug.

- the Ghost of High Heart tells Arya of a dream she had of 'a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair'

Littlefinger is clearly involved as well, his patsy Dontos gives her the hairnet and he describes on the boat how it went down. He was also plotting to frame Tyrion - the jousting dwarves gave Joffrey a pretext to rile his uncle up - what's the point of that if he wants Tyrion dead?

[Shaggydog Stark]

There's a fair whack of evidence for it being the Tyrells:

- the Queen of Thorns with Margaery sounds out Sansa about Joffrey and his rumoured cruelty, taking pains not to be overheard. Despite the horrible truth they seem fairly unconcerned.

- the missing stone in the hairnet, the jewels of which look very similar to the Strangler - Olenna has a prime opportunity to take it, Sansa notices it missing and Olenna also gets close to the wine jug.

- the Ghost of High Heart tells Arya of a dream she had of 'a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair'

Littlefinger is clearly involved as well, his patsy Dontos gives her the hairnet and he describes on the boat how it went down. He was also plotting to frame Tyrion - the jousting dwarves gave Joffrey a pretext to rile his uncle up - what's the point of that if he wants Tyrion dead?

You make a fair argument, my only problem with this is how did they know how Tyrion was going to react to the dwarves and how did they know that Joff would ask Tyrion to be his cup bearer?

[Horza]

LF knows both of them quite well. He knows Joffrey hates Tyrion and will get the idea to start chipping at him once the dwarfs come out. He also knows Tyrion will fight back and is wittier. Because Joffrey's a bully and likely to be drunk he'll also get close to Tyrion with the wine. He doesn't have to forsee Tyrion as cup bearer - all people need to point the finger is Joffrey standing over Tyrion, Tyrion snapping back, Joffrey dying.

[Shaggydog Stark]

LF knows both of them quite well. He knows Joffrey hates Tyrion and will get the idea to start chipping at him once the dwarfs come out. He also knows Tyrion will fight back and is wittier. Because Joffrey's a bully and likely to be drunk he'll also get close to Tyrion with the wine. He doesn't have to forsee Tyrion as cup bearer - all people need to point the finger is Joffrey standing over Tyrion, Tyrion snapping back, Joffrey dying.

Thanks, this makes a lot of sense and connects all the dots for me.