Poisons that Cause Insanity

[Shaggydog Stark]

Yeah...Good job though, so far :)

[Glyn Tarvoke]

Exactly! The rapidity of Cersei's insanity is suspicious. Perhaps it is Merryweather, but it could be Varys as well. One of these two. LF obviously was disappointed that she was self-destructing so rapidly, so I don't think it was LF.

IIRC, Brynden tells Cat that Lysa has changed ever since she returned from KL.

And yeah, when Lysa was trying to push Sansa out of the moondoor she tells LF that she did everything he asked and poisoned Jon with the tears of Lys.

Cersei is often thoughtless, assumes she will always get her way and everyone loves her, takes little or no responsibility for her actions; and becomes very angry when thwarted in any way. IMO, Cersei's behavior is what one would expect from such a person as she becomes more and more the alcoholic; gets constantly thwarted; and shows repeated instances of bad judgment.

Even after her return in ADWD, I found her definitely not so contrite and when she was contrite it was just an act. I don't think you need poison to explain her actions. She's crazy enough on her own.

For Lysa Arryn, I'd have similar comments.

For ugly little sweetrobin, it wouldn't surprise me much if LF had been poisoning him or had fed him something awful--or fed Lyssa something awful when she was pregnant. IF LF was feeding sweetrobin something, I don't see how he could manage it while away from the Eyrie. Now when LF gets to the Eyrie, I think he quickly starts manipulating the maester to overdose the kid with drugs, planning to remove him at some point once LF has consolidated power over the Vale. LF says as much to Sansa at the end of AFoC. LF is one character I'd like to see get killed--always fun to see where GRMM leads the story but I for one hope Sansa gets out of there intact.

[Danyl Stark]

A little off-topic, just a totally random poison-related question:

What poison do people think would be most appropriate for a Stark to use?, or are there any poisons specifically used by the Children of the Forest or First Men?

I'd have said that Wolfsbane would be the most appropriate poison to kill a Stark with.

[Eyron]

Re: Danyl Stark

I think that the Starks are very unlikely to use poison so I can't think of any. It has been said often in the books that poison is the weapon of choice for women and eunuchs, so I think the Starks would see it as dishonourable. They do everything the old way, the lord must decapitate the criminals himself and they hold strongly to the tradition of guest right, which came from the First men. Do you suspect them to have used poison any specific time? I can't think of any situation.

[Danyl Stark]

Re: Eira

Yes I was thinking that after writing it, I suppose there's not much use for poison for a Stark, as their not gonna betray the guest-right & its pretty pointless (and dishonourable) to use it any other time. I wonder if the Children of the Forest ever used some sort of nature based poison (for example something like weirwood sap), to kill their enemies.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Aha, except for Arya, who used poison in ADWD ;)

[Shaggydog Stark]

Cersei is often thoughtless, assumes she will always get her way and everyone loves her, takes little or no responsibility for her actions; and becomes very angry when thwarted in any way. IMO, Cersei's behavior is what one would expect from such a person as she becomes more and more the alcoholic; gets constantly thwarted; and shows repeated instances of bad judgment.

Even after her return in ADWD, I found her definitely not so contrite and when she was contrite it was just an act. I don't think you need poison to explain her actions. She's crazy enough on her own.

For Lysa Arryn, I'd have similar comments.

For ugly little sweetrobin, it wouldn't surprise me much if LF had been poisoning him or had fed him something awful--or fed Lyssa something awful when she was pregnant. IF LF was feeding sweetrobin something, I don't see how he could manage it while away from the Eyrie. Now when LF gets to the Eyrie, I think he quickly starts manipulating the maester to overdose the kid with drugs, planning to remove him at some point once LF has consolidated power over the Vale. LF says as much to Sansa at the end of AFoC. LF is one character I'd like to see get killed--always fun to see where GRMM leads the story but I for one hope Sansa gets out of there intact.

Perhaps, I don't know if you read the rest of the thread but we explain why we each suspect different people having been poisoned. But I think most of us agree on Sweetrobin. I really hope someone kills LF too. Actually I hope it is Sansa ;)

[Eyron]

Yes I was thinking that after writing it, I suppose there's not much use for poison for a Stark, as their not gonna betray the guest-right & its pretty pointless (and dishonourable) to use it any other time. I wonder if the Children of the Forest ever used some sort of nature based poison (for example something like weirwood sap), to kill their enemies.

I think the Children of the forest could have used poison actually, the Crannogmen from the Neck do I think, or they are said to do so anyway, we have not seen it yet as I remember. The people from the Neck, like the Reeds, seem to be more closely related with the Children, by what we are told and judging by their looks. They also have the greendreams, like Jojen, so I think they may have kept some of the Childrens knowledge and traditions too.

That is a good point, but I don't remember what kind of poison they are said to have used.

[Shaggydog Stark]

@ Eira,

I think you were interested in Pycelle. Last night as I was reading AFFC, I came across this info, I thought you might be interested:

Ages later, Grand Maester Pycelle entered shuffling, and stood before her with bowed head, blinking his heavy-lidded eyes and struggling not to yawn. He looked as if the weight of the huge maester's chain about his wattled neck was dragging him down to the floor. Pycelle had been old as far as Cersei could remember, but there was a time when he had also been magnificent: richly clad, dignified, exquisitely courteous. His immense white beard had given him an air of wisdom. Tyrion had shaved his beard off, though, and what had grown back was pitiful, a few patchy tufts of thin, brittle hair that did little to hide the loose pink flesh beneath hiss sagging chin. This is no man, she thought, only the ruins of one. The black cells robbed him of whatever strength he had. That, and the Imp's razor.

"How old are you?" Cersei asked, abruptly.

"Four-and-eighty, if it please Your Grace."

"A younger man would please me more."

His tongue flicked across his lips. "I was but two-and-forty when the Conclave called me. Kaeth was eighty when they chose him, and Ellendor was nigh on ninety. The cares of office crushed them, and both were dead within a year of being raised. Merion came next, only six-and-sixty, but he died of a chill on his way to King's Landing. Afterward King Aegon asked the Citadel to send a younger man. He was the first king I served."

And Tommen shall be the last.

Pycelle has been serving since Aegon V (the Unlikely). Therefore, these are the kings he has served:

Aegon V (233-259)

Jaehaerys II (259-262)

Aerys II (262-283)

Robert Baratheon

Joffrey Baratheon

Tommen Baratheon

I thought it might interest you because of the Citadel theory.

[ghost the direwolf]

Lysa seems permanently mad to me but she was not known as very crazy before she left KL I think, and there was good enough reasons for her actions without poison being involved (she murdered her husband out of love for LF) so I contribute her acts at that point to her situation.

Her I get a bit lost.

Was there ever a point of the story where it was explained that Lysa in fact poisoned John Arryn?

You will have to continue reading . Have read all the books? If yes then you need to reread AFFC.

hope it helped!

[Yellow Dog]

As for Lysa, I am more certain that LF could indeed have been poisoning her. It seems like something he would do to ensure that her paranoia continued to worsen. I've always suspected that his little kissing scene with Sansa was orchestrated for Lysa's benefit. Perhaps he spied her looking down from the window. LF would have known that in order for his plans to work, he needed to get rid of Lysa quickly, and also to do it in a way that wouldn't raise Sansa's suspicions. Perhaps he was counting on just the right thing to set her over the edge, her reactions obviously exacerbated by the poison's effects. This way, Sansa would again see him as her protector and his control over her strengthened.

Excellent point, much as I hate having any reason to hate Lysa less. :D And that is certainly consistent with LF. But so risky! He must have been watching from nearby to get there just in time to save Sansa as she already had one foot out the Moon Door.

[LadyDark]

As I was rereading AFFC, I came across the Arya chapter where the waif is teaching her about poisons.

"Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons," the waif told her, as she was grinding some with mortar and pestle. "A few grains will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking, and make a man feel calm and strong. A pinch will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep. Three pinches will produce that sleep that does not end. The taste is very sweet, so it is best used in cakes and pies and honeyed wines. Here, you can smell the sweetness." She let her have a whiff, then sent her up the ladders to find a red glass bottle. "This is a crueler poison, but tasteless and odorless, hence easier to hide. The tears of Lys, men call it. Dissolved in wine or water, it eats at a man's bowels and belly, and kills as a sickness of those parts. Smell." Arya sniffed, and smelled nothing. The waif put the tears to one side and opened a fat stone jar. "This paste is spiced with basilisk blood. It will give cooked flesh a savory smell, but if eaten it produces violent madness, in beasts as well as men. A mouse will attack a lion after a taste of basilisk blood."

This information bothered me. The two poisons that were mentioned prior to the basilisk paste have both been used in Westeros. For example, sweetsleep is being used on little Robert Arryn and the tears of Lys has been used on Jon Arryn. So we are familiar with both those poisons. Therefore, it is possible that the third poison or a variation of it has also been used that causes insanity, except we, the readers, are unaware of it.

Does anyone else suspect that some of the people who seem insane in ASOIAF, might actually have been poisoned into insanity? Perhaps even some of the Targs for all we know? The fact that there are poisons that cause insanity bothers me in a book basically filled with many insane people. Lets not forget that the entire series is about how to play the game of thrones, so I am beginning to get a nagging suspicion that some of these people were not meant to be insane but were poisoned.

What do you guys think?

I don't remember correctly, wasn't the last one used by Jaquen in Harrendel with Wells (?) dog?

[Eyron]

Thanks!

I've been looking into the Targaryens, but since I have not read the Dunk and Egg stories maybe you can fill me in at times?

Aegon V was not known for madness (unlike two of his brothers), but died in Summerhall supposedly trying to hatch his dragon egg. And before that he made arrangements for his grandson Aerys and his sister Rhaella to marry, because of the prophecy that the PTWP should come from their line? I strikes me as he became a little more unstable as time went.

Jaehaerys II was amiable, clever, but sickly and died young. And he ruled only for 2-3 years and the crown passed to Aerys II the Mad King.

Interesting notes on the earlier Targaryens:

From the Wiki:

About Maegor the cruel

Maegor had three Grand Maesters executed. Maegor was killed on the Iron throne by unknown means, though some say by the Throne itself. Maegor came from the line of Aegon and Visenya and it seems he resembled his mother in many ways (Visenya was a hard woman and warrior according to the citadels concordance), and there were no more descendants from that line.

The closest descendants from the Rhaenys line lived long peaceful lives mostly. Such as Jaehaerys the Conciliator and his sister and wife Good Queen Alysanne, and their son Viserys I (who intended his daughter Rhaenyra to be his heir).

The exception was Aegon II who stole the throne from his older sister Rhaenyra and started the Dance of the Dragons, Aegon II died shortly after though and the throne passed to Rhaenyras son Aegon III.

Aegon III ruled for a long time and was known as Dragonsbane even though he did try to hatch eggs later in life, but it was at this time the dragons became extinct for some reason. His death is never mentioned.

He was succeded by his son Daeron I, the Young Dragon who died at 18 in the attempts to conquer Dorne.

Then came Daerons I brother Baelor the Blessed...

Baelor the Blessed walked the Boneway barefoot to make peace with Dorne and rescued the Dragonknight from a snakepit. Legend says the vipers refused to strike him because he was so pure and holy, but the truth is that he was bitten half a hundred times and should have died from it. Some say that he was deranged by the venom (III: 664, 665)(http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/Section/2.1./)

His uncle Viserys II ruled a short while after Baelor (1-2 years then he died, death not mentioned) but in effect he rules all the while Baelor was king, and kept the realm together, and it's rumoured that he possibly poisoned Baelor to kill him. Neither is mentioned to have tried to hatch dragons.

Viserys II heir was Aegon IV the Unworthy, it was he who legitimized all his bastards and had a lot of mistresses (Missy and Barba and so on).

He was handsome when he was young but became fat and corrupt and his descendant bastards started the rebellions. Viserys II never tried to hatch dragons, he built wooden dragons and such instead.

Daeron II was Aegons IV first son and he was a bookish man, and managed to survive the rebellions from his halfbrothers, make an alliance with Dorne by marriage for himself and his sister, and died in The Spring sickness. I don't find any mention of him and dragon eggs but this is the first king to have a massive interest in books, and what did he want to learn from those books?

Baelor Breakspear known to be honourable and a true knight was son and heir to Daeron II but he died at Ashford, by his brother Maekars hands. Baelors both sons died in the spring sickness too. (Do we know if this was a regular disease? People died instantly from it)

His brother Aerys I ruled after him, he was also a very bookish man, like his father and he left most of the rule to Bloodraven his Hand. Aerys I and his sister Aelinor never had any children so their youngest brother Maekar became king.

Maekar I was a commander type and from what I have read nothing supports that he was crazy in any way. He didn't like Bloodraven, whom he had imprisoned when he became king. He had no intention to kill his brother Baelor it seems and he banished his son Aerion (Brightflame) for what he had done.

Maekars I son Daeron was a drunk and had prophetic dreams and died from a sickness leaving a feebleminded daughter who could never be heir. So here the madness seems to appear again!

In the citadel on Targs it is says that Brightflame was really drunk when he downed wildfire. He was obsessed with dragons though and was obviously mad as well.

And then there was Aegon V.... back to top :)

It strikes me that the Targaryens were not very crazy people in general, with a few big exceptions. Compared to the other houses I think they are not much more mad than any other, but the madness seems to have progressed in the last two generations.

Maekars mother was Dornish, so the inbreeding was halted but WHO WAS MAEKARS WIFE?

It seems that some Targs die unexpectedly or don't produce heirs, and these tend to be the bookish types. Maybe they were trying to learn blood magic and how to bring back dragons, and the maesters took them out?

[Shaggydog Stark]

Thanks!

I've been looking into the Targaryens, but since I have not read the Dunk and Egg stories maybe you can fill me in at times?

Aegon V was not known for madness (unlike two of his brothers), but died in Summerhall supposedly trying to hatch his dragon egg. And before that he made arrangements for his grandson Aerys and his sister Rhaella to marry, because of the prophecy that the PTWP should come from their line? I strikes me as he became a little more unstable as time went.

Jaehaerys II was amiable, clever, but sickly and died young. And he ruled only for 2-3 years and the crown passed to Aerys II the Mad King.

Interesting notes on the earlier Targaryens:

From the Wiki:

About Maegor the cruel

Maegor had three Grand Maesters executed. Maegor was killed on the Iron throne by unknown means, though some say by the Throne itself. Maegor came from the line of Aegon and Visenya and it seems he resembled his mother in many ways (Visenya was a hard woman and warrior according to the citadels concordance), and there were no more descendants from that line.

The closest descendants from the Rhaenys line lived long peaceful lives mostly. Such as Jaehaerys the Conciliator and his sister and wife Good Queen Alysanne, and their son Viserys I (who intended his daughter Rhaenyra to be his heir).

The exception was Aegon II who stole the throne from his older sister Rhaenyra and started the Dance of the Dragons, Aegon II died shortly after though and the throne passed to Rhaenyras son Aegon III.

Aegon III ruled for a long time and was known as Dragonsbane even though he did try to hatch eggs later in life, but it was at this time the dragons became extinct for some reason. His death is never mentioned.

He was succeded by his son Daeron I, the Young Dragon who died at 18 in the attempts to conquer Dorne.

Then came Daerons I brother Baelor the Blessed...

Baelor the Blessed walked the Boneway barefoot to make peace with Dorne and rescued the Dragonknight from a snakepit. Legend says the vipers refused to strike him because he was so pure and holy, but the truth is that he was bitten half a hundred times and should have died from it. Some say that he was deranged by the venom (III: 664, 665)(http://www.westeros....e/Section/2.1./)

His uncle Viserys II ruled a short while after Baelor (1-2 years then he died, death not mentioned) but in effect he rules all the while Baelor was king, and kept the realm together, and it's rumoured that he possibly poisoned Baelor to kill him. Neither is mentioned to have tried to hatch dragons.

Viserys II heir was Aegon IV the Unworthy, it was he who legitimized all his bastards and had a lot of mistresses (Missy and Barba and so on).

He was handsome when he was young but became fat and corrupt and his descendant bastards started the rebellions. Viserys II never tried to hatch dragons, he built wooden dragons and such instead.

Daeron II was Aegons IV first son and he was a bookish man, and managed to survive the rebellions from his halfbrothers, make an alliance with Dorne by marriage for himself and his sister, and died in The Spring sickness. I don't find any mention of him and dragon eggs but this is the first king to have a massive interest in books, and what did he want to learn from those books?

Baelor Breakspear known to be honourable and a true knight was son and heir to Daeron II but he died at Ashford, by his brother Maekars hands. Baelors both sons died in the spring sickness too. (Do we know if this was a regular disease? People died instantly from it)

His brother Aerys I ruled after him, he was also a very bookish man, like his father and he left most of the rule to Bloodraven his Hand. Aerys I and his sister Aelinor never had any children so their youngest brother Maekar became king.

Maekar I was a commander type and from what I have read nothing supports that he was crazy in any way. He didn't like Bloodraven, whom he had imprisoned when he became king. He had no intention to kill his brother Baelor it seems and he banished his son Aerion (Brightflame) for what he had done.

Maekars I son Daeron was a drunk and had prophetic dreams and died from a sickness leaving a feebleminded daughter who could never be heir. So here the madness seems to appear again!

In the citadel on Targs it is says that Brightflame was really drunk when he downed wildfire. He was obsessed with dragons though and was obviously mad as well.

And then there was Aegon V.... back to top :)

It strikes me that the Targaryens were not very crazy people in general, with a few big exceptions. Compared to the other houses I think they are not much more mad than any other, but the madness seems to have progressed in the last two generations.

Maekars mother was Dornish, so the inbreeding was halted but WHO WAS MAEKARS WIFE?

It seems that some Targs die unexpectedly or don't produce heirs, and these tend to be the bookish types. Maybe they were trying to learn blood magic and how to bring back dragons, and the maesters took them out?

This is excellent as usual :). You have basically summarized why I am a bit reluctant to name all Targs insane. I am not even sure if incest causes insanity, i need to look that up. I can't remember who Maekar's wife was. I read the Dunk and Egg stories a long time ago. I need to go back and reread them. But your premise is excellent!

[Eyron]

Maekars wife is not listed anywhere I could find, and that is a bit odd. It's the same with Lord Rickards wife... I think there may be a reason why they are not mentioned, because it would reveal something. I mean there are endless lists on characters that has no significance so that these two are never revealed is kind of strange.

Can you add anything about obsessions with dragons to any of the earlier Targs? Maybe I just couldn't find it.

The last generations were the craziest it seems, and Maester Pycelle were their maester... I wonder who was Maekars maester. Maybe you know this? It was his sons that where the most obsessed with dragons, all of them it seems.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Maekars wife is not listed anywhere I could find, and that is a bit odd. It's the same with Lord Rickards wife... I think there may be a reason why they are not mentioned, because it would reveal something. I mean there are endless lists on characters that has no significance so that these two are never revealed is kind of strange.

Can you add anything about obsessions with dragons to any of the earlier Targs? Maybe I just couldn't find it.

The last generations were the craziest it seems, and Maester Pycelle were their maester... I wonder who was Maekars maester. Maybe you know this? It was his sons that where the most obsessed with dragons, all of them it seems.

Okay, I will go back to the Dunk and Egg stories and check. I will see what I can find.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I just went through the entire Hedge Knight story really rapidly and could find nothing. I don't think there is a mention of Maekar's wife or the maesters at the time. Maybe I will find something in "The Sworn Sword". I will check later.

Interestingly I found this on wiki:

Grand Maester Gerardys was the Grand Maester during the reign of Aegon II. Aegon fed him to his dragon for reasons unknown. I wonder if Aegon II discovered Gerardys plotting against him?

I had totally forgotten that Baelor the Blessed became insane from venom, which fits in so perfectly with our theory. Other poisons cause insanity as well. Excellent!

[Eyron]

Grand Maester Gerardys was the Grand Maester during the reign of Aegon II. Aegon fed him to his dragon for reasons unknown. I wonder if Aegon II discovered Gerardys plotting against him?

I had totally forgotten that Baelor the Blessed became insane from venom, which fits in so perfectly with our theory. Other poisons cause insanity as well. Excellent!

Ah, and Aegon II died shortly after his reign started, he only got around 2 years, hmmm how about that. So this crazy Targ killed a maester and died soon after... It could be that the maester were appointed before he usurped the throne and remained loyal to Rhaenyra, or that Aegon II were on to the maester, if there was a plot against him or Targs in general.

I like the Baelor find too. I think we have a better picture of things now :)

[Shaggydog Stark]

Ah, and Aegon II died shortly after his reign started, he only got around 2 years, hmmm how about that. So this crazy Targ killed a maester and died soon after... It could be that the maester were appointed before he usurped the throne and remained loyal to Rhaenyra, or that Aegon II were on to the maester, if there was a plot against him or Targs in general.

I like the Baelor find too. I think we have a better picture of things now :)

Aha, I totally agree. I think someone wants to convince everyone that incest causes insanity. I googled that and couldn't find anything that conclusively states that incest=insanity. But I will keep looking. I want evidence that either confirms it causes insanity or refutes it. I do not like wishy washy conclusions ;).

[Eyron]

I couldn't sleep well last night and I got to thinking about the Targs again :)

Some of the earlier Targs did not marry their siblings, for instance Rhaenyra had an Arryn mother, so her descendants were only 50% Targaryen, following from that...

I thought about the genetics of the line starting with Daeron II, he had a Dornish wife so their children were "half-targs" or much less, but I will make it easier by pretending they were 50% Targ, so to speak. That includes Maekar.

Maekar had an unknown wife, and since she is unknown and not a sister to Maekar it's a good guess she is not Targaryen. So Maekars children are only at maximum ~1/4 Targs... His four sons were among the most crazy of the Targaryens, but not all of them.

Moving on to Aegon V's son Jaehaerys II, who's wife is also not mentioned but he married for love so I'm guessing he married a non-Targ. So if this is correct his children Aerys and Rhaella who married eachother were only ~1/8 Targaryen at the most!

Wich makes Rhaegar, Viserys and Dany ~1/4 Targaryen genetically speaking. IF I have guessed correctly about the unknown queens not being Targaryen.

Keeping in mind that the first seriously mad Targ from Aegon and Rhaenys line was Baelor, and he was possibly mad from snake venom...

They were not so inbred we are led to believe, or GRRM just made a mistake along the lines...

Any thoughts?