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Bran Vras

Three theories on Roose Bolton (The fate of Domeric, Last day in Harrenhal, Lady Dustin)

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That word monster creeping in again.Interesting to note that while Yrgitte says this offends the gods while Craster often describes himself as a godly man.Points towards different gods to me-the wildlings follow the old gods of the trees,Craster worships the WW as gods.Black blood can always be a description of him having NW blood in him.

I would think it was the woman who was important.If Roose had done me a slight,with what i know of him,i wouldnt go after him without an army.This one woman comes and demands help raising the child.You dont do that wthout major cojones.

Is there a chance perhaps that Roose is proud that Ramseys blood is so bad?With all this talk of Roose and his heirs lets keep this in mind-if he is in league with the others he thinks the end of the world as he knows it is coming.In the face of this perhaps having a viable heir to play the game of thrones isnt so important

Yes, you could be on to something... or maybe Roose has made some pact to be around in some capacity after the "end of the world."

Lady Dustin says to Theon:

Roose has no feelings, you see. Those leeches he loves so well sucked all the passions out of him years ago. He does not love, he does not hate, he does not grieve. This is a game to him, mildly diverting. Some men hunt, some hawk, some tumble dice. Roose plays with men. You and me, these Freys, Lord Manderly, his plump new wife, even his bastard, we are but his playthings.

She's goes on to say that Roose probably aspires to be King in the North, but it could be much darker and sinister than this.

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I think it was interesting how Roose said that the miller's wife was healthy looking as discussed above. It made me think of what Roose would consider a healthy look.

Pale, gaunt, bloodless? :stunned:

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Very interesting topic.

A Note on Baby Monsters: I totally get babies as monsters. Having two monsters myself under the age of three, I don't think referring to babies as monsters means anything beyond, being a needy, completely world changing being. My smallest monster wailed for hours last night, without his mother, it was excruciating. . When Val first refers to Craster's Son as monster, it was an attempt to disguise she had grown fond of the baby, John calls her on it, and she admits it. Then its their little joke, as well as his "name." Its amazing how many people interpret differently lines in the book.

I think its possible that Domeric or Ramsay became Reek and the other Ramsay. Though i have no proof just a feeling from reading this topic.

On Roose's lack of scars or bruising, i immediately wondered if he was skin grafting in some way, being they are flayers that may lead to part of it, and then what about fresh newborn skin from his own spawns, it would be even better but not as much skin to go around?

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Yes, you could be on to something... or maybe Roose has made some pact to be around in some capacity after the "end of the world."

Well one would think with where wer going here that Roose would take a position in the hierarchy of wights-becoming an other and so a leader of wights

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I don't know if this has been mentioned, but what if Roose isn't just in league with the Others, but are actually part human/other himself. That could explain why he has so very pale eyes, and his tendency to leech himself. He isn't comfortable with too much hot blood in his body. Also, Roose assumed that Ramsay was his son because he "had his eyes". Maybe Ramsay isn't Roose Boltons son, but has the same eyes because he also is a human/other abomination. Maybe the whore gave Ramsay to Roose as a means for revenge for the things Roose did to here. And maybe because Ramsay doesn't leech himself, he is in fact turning mad.

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Well one would think with where wer going here that Roose would take a position in the hierarchy of wights-becoming an other and so a leader of wights

Yes, this is plausible. He does appear to be draining his body of as much blood as possible, and Lady Dustin's description of him as emotionally empty and just viewing people as playthings sounds very "Otherish" to me.

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I don't know if this has been mentioned, but what if Roose isn't just in league with the Others, but are actually part human/other himself. That could explain why he has so very pale eyes, and his tendency to leech himself. He isn't comfortable with too much hot blood in his body. Also, Roose assumed that Ramsay was his son because he "had his eyes". Maybe Ramsay isn't Roose Boltons son, but has the same eyes because he also is a human/other abomination. Maybe the whore gave Ramsay to Roose as a means for revenge for the things Roose did to here. And maybe because Ramsay doesn't leech himself, he is in fact turning mad.

This is all taking a very dark turn, isn't it :) I do think that Ramsay is Roose's child, but what you said about Roose not being comfortable with all that hot blood is very provocative. Plus, on the whole issue of the pale eyes, the woman's brother-in-law kicked her out because of those very eyes, and if we ask ourselves why he would do this, it doesn't make sense. Surely he knew that his brother had been killed and his wife raped, so there would have been a possibility that she could give birth to the rapist's child. I think when Ramsay came out with those pale eyes that must have been what convinced the brother-in-law that the child was different, and needed to go, not that he didn't have pity on the woman and might not have kept the child otherwise. Also. in linking this to the NK's theory, Roose says he cuts the man's tongue out so that he wouldn't go carrying tales to Lord Rickard. But if Roose has been keeping up a tradition of the lord's night, why suddenly worry about this particular man's story. Lord Rickard must have heard the rumours before. So, was Roose worried more about the man's tale of him still practising the lord's night, or the man's story that the baby had been born with pale eyes. Would this have had special significance to the Stark of Winterfell, given that it was their ancestor who defeated the Night's King along with Joruman? But then again, Roose walks around with his pale eyes everyday and no one raises an eyebrow at that. Uhhhh, this is frustrating :)

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Yes, this is plausible. He does appear to be draining his body of as much blood as possible, and Lady Dustin's description of him as emotionally empty and just viewing people as playthings sounds very "Otherish" to me.

This does seem to add up and work to me but it seems very Jordanesque-bad people waiting for the apocalypse so they can take over the ruling of whats left afterwards.....is it Martinesque though?

Adding all of this up it gos with Roose being a dark sorcerer in league with the Dark One and the Others.He uses the translucent leeches...he also has pale eyes-pale translucent are similar words.But anyway Mel uses the black leeches working her magic.Shes a sorceress of the lord of light,he of the dark.She promotes AA which if he is the same as the last hero may have been Brandon Stark.Two of the possibilties of AA reborn are starks-Bran and Jon.Boltons have been flaying Staks for thousands of years.If Mels looking for(thinks she found but is wrong)AA so might be the Dark Ones minion Bolton.Stop him before he becomes AA perhaps.Keep in mind if Roose knows AA will be a Stark with the family history in mind it adds up.Roose personally kills Robb Stark.Robb would already probably have died from his wounds and Roose still stabs him in the heart amking sure he is dead.As the head of his house and the King in the North he could have been the main candidate for AA reborn.So Roose was doing his job and also gaining favour/power.He believes Brandon and Rickon dead.All thats left is Jon.Ramsey then sends that letter to Jon luring him out of safety......clutching at strtaws here?

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Admittedly that does paint the Starks very white-a house of heroes.This goes against some of the very well thought out theories in the Heresy threads as far as i know

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Admittedly that does paint the Starks very white-a house of heroes.This goes against some of the very well thought out theories in the Heresy threads as far as i know

I know, that's the thing. And there's also Old Nan's story to be considered with the NK's having been actually a Stark.

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I know, that's the thing. And there's also Old Nan's story to be considered with the NK's having been actually a Stark.

It depends on wether Old Nans stories are creed or not.Shes says some say hes a Bolton-infact thats the first name mentioned if thats significant.Other then that i dont know that if he was a Stark this goes against the theory-one rogue Stark becomes the NK before being put down.It cant be as black and white as we think but i cant see any other way to paint Bolton other then black and they are Starks greatest enemy

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This post was written by Black Crow, pulled from the heresy thread. I felt it could perhaps shed some light on what we've been discussing, or provide new strands for exploration. Maybe Roose Bolton has been working on the "inside" all this time, trying to destabilize the North for an attack. Frey Pie you were the one who suggested this upthread?

Posted Today, 10:11 AM

This is an intelligence summary prepared to analyse events north of the Wall, proceeding without preconceptions as to allegiances and motives in order to try and determine who is actually doing what and why.

At the current time the following protagonists and factions have been identified:

Bloodraven: a powerful wizard from a family loyal to the Old Gods and closely aligned with the Children. Physically immobilised but controlling an extensive intelligence network passively based on Weirwood trees and aggressively supplemented by Ravens.

Bran Stark: One of the Starks of Winterfell, currently aligned with both Bloodraven and the Children.

Children: otherwise known as Children of the Forest, but referring to themselves as Singers and like Bloodraven with whom they are closely aligned dwelling in the darkness of a cave system of unknown extent. Intelligence on the Children is dangerously limited in that the only ones so far encountered are Greenseers and Singers, representing themselves as peaceful and gentle. So far nothing has been seen of another previously identified group, the Wood Dancers. This is cause for concern since the Wood Dancers were the warrior Children.

Ravens: not identified as an independent faction but presumed to be agents of Bloodraven. A caveat must be added however that their use as spies and messengers predates Bloodraven’s involvement and that he himself refers to his Ravens still holding the consciousness of former wargs; generally Children/Singers. This may point to the Ravens’ first loyalty lying with the Children although there is no indication at this time that they are acting independently of Bloodraven.

Wildlings: a generic term carelessly used by outsiders to denote any of the inhabitants north of the Wall. Strictly speaking a number of different races are comprised within this designation but as all those so far identified were recently brought together under the sole leadership of Mance Rayder (see below) it is convenient to continue this designation.

Mance Rayder: otherwise designated King beyond the Wall and leader of all identified Wildling races and factions with the exception of Craster and his people (see below). Although “a wildling born” he was brought up by the Night’s Watch before eventually deserting back to his people. Of itself this is odd; why did the Watch kill the rest of the Wildling party he was with and then, assuming he was literally a child, did they bring him up? This appears to be a unique occurrence and raises a so far unanswerable question as to whether he was in fact raised up as a hostage having been recognised as belonging to a significant family beyond the Wall. Is he kin to Craster?

Craster: apparently the only Wildling not to have joined Mance. Professes a strong dislike for him and claims to have mutilated the messenger sent to summon him although there is no independent evidence of this and more significantly no indication of any retaliation by Mance or his people. The possibility cannot be ignored that they are kin and that Mance is Craster’s younger brother. Craster for his part apprehends no danger since he holds to the Old Gods and gives up his sons to them. The initial assumption was that he was sacrificing them, but it later transpires his women believe that he is giving them up to be White Walkers. This is questioned by some but the fact that the Walkers have been visiting Craster’s Keep regularly and collecting ordinary foodstuffs as well as babies, lends credence to this. At the present time Craster is understood to be dead, but with his sons about to blow in anything is possible.

White Walkers: generally understood as being synonymous with the Others. Their real status has been obscured by the TV version which substituted White Walkers for all references to the Others, thereby losing a distinction which may originally have been intended in the books. As the “Others” there is a widespread belief that they are on the point of launching a massive invasion of Westeros, leading an army of killer zombies (Wights) with the aim of wiping out all human life. The actual intelligence available does not support this assessment and instead points very strongly to their being a small group of elite rangers or pathfinders working for another agency.

Activity

What is remarkable is the close degree of inter-relation between the various protagonists. This is most obviously seen in Bran Stark who has been summoned north to develop his innate ability as a Greenseer. Other than learning to “fly” as one he has been given no reason for this except in a vision where he is led north up through a curtain of light to see the heart of winter. Despite apparently having to fight past wights at the entrance to the caves there appears to be no discussion in the cave of any local threat posed by the Others and/or the White Walkers.

This would suggest that they may not be regarded by Bloodraven and the Children as the enemy.

Meanwhile Mance Rayder has spend a number of years gathering all of the Wildlings under his leadership up in the Frostfangs. Aside from refugees fleeing southwards on their own initiative only two groups are known to be outside his authority. One is a party of raiders hunted down and killed by White Walkers and the other is Craster and his people who have a relationship with the Walkers. The motivation for this gathering is unclear. The threat from the White Walkers/Others is mentioned but there appears to be very little evidence to back this up and there are no stories of large scale massacres. A more plausible motivation is that by some means it has been established that Winter is coming and that it is therefore necessary to move the population south to escape its worst effects.

If so this raises two related questions. First, why does Mance know of this threat, and secondly are the small patrols of White Walkers/White Rangers that have been encountered a threat in themselves or are they ruthlessly dealing with stragglers to make sure that everyone does rally to Mance, just as Tormund describes their doing once the trek actually gets under way.

Then there is the question of the fight on the Fist. It has been argued that the Wights were drawn to Mormont’s position by the fires, but this does not explain why there was no attack on the far bigger and far more vulnerable trek either in camp or on the move. Nor does it explain why the attack was launched just hours before the Watch were due to ride out and attack the trek.

A probable answer lies in the ravens and through them Bloodraven and the Children. The latter have the necessary knowledge and skills to recognise the threat posed by Winter, through the ravens they knew what Mormont was intending and after a prolonged period of inactivity they would thus be able to order the White Rangers and their Wights to attack at precisely the right moment in order to clear the way for Mance’s trek.

There is further substance to this suggestion in the forces available to launch the attack. Gathering sufficient Wights obviously took time, yet when the battle took place there were still not enough of them to properly surround the Fist and ensure no-one escaped, despite drafting in at least one dead bear to try and make up the numbers. The absence of White Rangers is also notable. Only one is seen and he doesn’t act particularly aggressively, only killing Small Paul in self defence before Sam accidentally pinks him.

Summary

The connections between all of the protagonists are significant and point very strongly to the invasion of Westeros being carried out not by the anonymous Others but by the Wildings and all the other “Old Races”, led by Mance Rayder, orchestrated by Bloodraven and the Children, and enforced by the White Rangers.

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This is the first of a series of three posts on Roose Bolton. Since the other parts are just as long as this one and largely independent, I'll post them later. If a theory has to emerge from all this (I don't have it yet), it will be more sinister than ever.

I'll start with this post then. :)

Roose has been married To Bethany Ryswell. It's not well known that Bethany was Roose's second wife. Nothing is known about the first wife. Roose and Bethany had one son, Domeric, who died a few years ago from a sickness at the stomach. Roose says that Domeric had brothers who died in infancy. We don't even know if those brothers were Bethany's children.

So what? Death rate for infants were pretty high in the middle ages and its entirely possible for that to also affect noble people. I would rather say that this says something about the maester and midwives present at the Dreadfort rather than anything about Roose.

Before I am reminded that everybody knows that Ramsay killed Domeric, let's examine the evidence for that. It's implied in ACoK, when Roose reacts to the false report of Ramsay's death:

Yes we know, but feel free to put forward your idea.

We know that Roose is a strange fellow, but even the worst persons are spoken of in the best possible terms when they pass away, aren't they? We hear a second hand rumour (no mention of Domeric)

Go on.

Kinslaying is surely worse than murder and rape. The blame is explicit in ADwD. Roose to Ramsay:

Yes, this is true.

Note that Roose does not accuse Ramsay of the murder to his face, although he is not shy of telling Ramsay anything else. When Manderly recites the horrific crimes of Ramsay to Davos, there is no mention of Domeric.

Well lets not forget that Roose swept that murder under the carpent and blame Domeric's death on an illness, and without a doubt the Dreadfort's maester was smart enough to play along, and so few outside of House Bolton would know for sure that's what happened. And remember that unlike Ramsay Roose is pretty smart. When they talk about Arya Roose constantly remains Ramsay when he forgets to speak about Jeyne Pole as Arya Stark. That's probably the reason behind it. Roose has the illusion going that Domeric died of illness and don't allow himself to let his tongue slip. That's a much better explaintion as far as I can see.

Finally Roose to Theon:

To summarize: everybody is convinced that Ramsay is a monster, but only Roose accuses him of Domeric's murder. Despite Ramsay's viciousness, there is no sign that he has any knowledge of poison or means to get any. One would rather imagine Ramsay murdering someone in a "hunting accident", an unfortunate drowning, a slip from the parapet etc.

Everyone knows Ramsay is a monster, yes. The thing about poison is a good point but I would think that the smallfolk have some knowledge about what plants are and are not poisonous. Hence Ramsay might well have used some mushrooms and plants in some combination or something like that to poison Domeric. It wouldn't need to be something fancy like expensive stuff from across the sea.

Walda hopes to have many sons with Roose. She writes it in ACoK

Yes that's true and I would think that's the reason to why Roose picked a Frey wife. He wants kids, lots of them, so that his House won't need to end up in the hands of Ramsay. If he didn't care, then why would he want to re-marry since he'd already have Ramsay?

Here is the simplest plausible story I can imagine:

1) Roose is responsible for the death of Domeric.

2) He realized that his bastard son is a psychopath that can attract the blame for the crime, hence admitted Ramsay at the Dreadfort,

3) He never misses an opportunity to put the blame on Ramsay, and to remind everyone of his bastard's cruelty,

4) Other children of Roose (sons) have died in the past. They were infants, but probably not stillborns, otherwise they wouldn't be mentioned, I think. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) we don't know that story. But here is how Arya reacts to Fat Walda's letter:

1. I call it wrong due to the lack of any kind of motive whatsoever

2. Why not just blame Ramsay and have his head off then?

3. Considering that Ramsay on his own is causing a shitload more of crap in a few years than the rest of the North have probably managed in a decade I'm not really suprised

4. Again this speaks more for that Roose and/or his wives didn't have all that good genes for reproduction or that the maester and midwives at the Dreadfort are not very qualified in this regard.

From that it's easy to speculate that Roose plans to kill Walda's sons (no mention of daughters above), and still blame Ramsay. All that reminds us of Craster and what we suspect of the sacrifices to the Others. More evidence to follow in the second theory.

Wait a minute! First you try to paint Roose as a person who murders his own infant offspring for the lulz of it and when he's gone for a decade and more with this shit without anyone noticing anything at all...he suddenly decideds to pick up a scapegoat. Why? No one's even close to get on a track if he's guilty, which I very much doubt. And then you are trying to paint him as a Craster, and hinting he's sacrificing to the Others?

For a start there are no Others south of the Wall to sacrifice anyone or anything to so that's a more epic fail on Roose's part if its true than I would personally expect. And furthermore Roose's "evil" has been that he's coldly realpolitical. It isn't that he is a howling madman that runs through the forests or that he's the most degenerated individual this side of the Andal invasion. This is an ambitious attempt at vilifiaction and possible character assassination but I think you're building your castle on air over the abyss.

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This post was written by Black Crow, pulled from the heresy thread. I felt it could perhaps shed some light on what we've been discussing, or provide new strands for exploration. Maybe Roose Bolton has been working on the "inside" all this time, trying to destabilize the North for an attack. Frey Pie you were the one who suggested this upthread?

Saw it there earlier aswel.The inherent difference between what wev been trying to uncover and their proposals is wev been looking at Roose as a very evil character.In the heresys from what iv been able to glean they dont see the others as the ultimate evil.If there was some kinda Northern alliance as is suggested above then alot of the information wev gathered wouldnt add up in accordance with the others not being truely evil.For example Rooses killing of Domeric and uncaring attitude to the faith of his unborn children.Everything wev hypothesised points towards Roose and his house as a whole being overtly sinister.It would make sense for the alliancde to have people working for them south of the Wall but i dunno....

Edit:I also think theres alot to be learnt about the Bolton history.Why exactly did they rebel against Stark rule so many times?They were peaceful allies for700years up to now but before that theres a vey bloody history between them and the Starks

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I'll start with this post then. :)

So what? Death rate for infants were pretty high in the middle ages and its entirely possible for that to also affect noble people. I would rather say that this says something about the maester and midwives present at the Dreadfort rather than anything about Roose.

Yes we know, but feel free to put forward your idea.

Go on.

Yes, this is true.

Well lets not forget that Roose swept that murder under the carpent and blame Domeric's death on an illness, and without a doubt the Dreadfort's maester was smart enough to play along, and so few outside of House Bolton would know for sure that's what happened. And remember that unlike Ramsay Roose is pretty smart. When they talk about Arya Roose constantly remains Ramsay when he forgets to speak about Jeyne Pole as Arya Stark. That's probably the reason behind it. Roose has the illusion going that Domeric died of illness and don't allow himself to let his tongue slip. That's a much better explaintion as far as I can see.

Everyone knows Ramsay is a monster, yes. The thing about poison is a good point but I would think that the smallfolk have some knowledge about what plants are and are not poisonous. Hence Ramsay might well have used some mushrooms and plants in some combination or something like that to poison Domeric. It wouldn't need to be something fancy like expensive stuff from across the sea.

Yes that's true and I would think that's the reason to why Roose picked a Frey wife. He wants kids, lots of them, so that his House won't need to end up in the hands of Ramsay. If he didn't care, then why would he want to re-marry since he'd already have Ramsay?

1. I call it wrong due to the lack of any kind of motive whatsoever

2. Why not just blame Ramsay and have his head off then?

3. Considering that Ramsay on his own is causing a shitload more of crap in a few years than the rest of the North have probably managed in a decade I'm not really suprised

4. Again this speaks more for that Roose and/or his wives didn't have all that good genes for reproduction or that the maester and midwives at the Dreadfort are not very qualified in this regard.

Wait a minute! First you try to paint Roose as a person who murders his own infant offspring for the lulz of it and when he's gone for a decade and more with this shit without anyone noticing anything at all...he suddenly decideds to pick up a scapegoat. Why? No one's even close to get on a track if he's guilty, which I very much doubt. And then you are trying to paint him as a Craster, and hinting he's sacrificing to the Others?

For a start there are no Others south of the Wall to sacrifice anyone or anything to so that's a more epic fail on Roose's part if its true than I would personally expect. And furthermore Roose's "evil" has been that he's coldly realpolitical. It isn't that he is a howling madman that runs through the forests or that he's the most degenerated individual this side of the Andal invasion. This is an ambitious attempt at vilifiaction and possible character assassination but I think you're building your castle on air over the abyss.

I think alot of your points have been addressed further on in the thread if you have the time to read them-might take a while though :P

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Saw it there earlier aswel.The inherent difference between what wev been trying to uncover and their proposals is wev been looking at Roose as a very evil character.In the heresys from what iv been able to glean they dont see the others as the ultimate evil.If there was some kinda Northern alliance as is suggested above then alot of the information wev gathered wouldnt add up in accordance with the others not being truely evil.For example Rooses killing of Domeric and uncaring attitude to the faith of his unborn children.Everything wev hypothesised points towards Roose and his house as a whole being overtly sinister.It would make sense for the alliancde to have people working for them south of the Wall but i dunno....

Edit:I also think theres alot to be learnt about the Bolton history.Why exactly did they rebel against Stark rule so many times?They were peaceful allies for700years up to now but before that theres a vey bloody history between them and the Starks

Yes, there's more to be learnt about them for sure. Alright, let's assume that Roose isn't EVIL, but rather interested in making an alliance with the Others or that he's been dabbling in some kind of sorcery/blood magic over the years. Either way, he's discovered a secret or made a pact that will prolong his life and/or House Bolton without the need for trueborn heirs. His bastard Ramsay is enough. I'm not buying for one second that Roose is just coolz with Ramsay killing all the heirs to the Dreadfort because he's wary of boy lords. So let's forge ahead with this journey into crackpot land: let's say Roose wants those children dead, but he doesn't want to do it himself. To put a spin on the question he poses to Theon, if the kinslayer is accursed, what's a father to do when he needs to kill his own children? Well have your bastard kill them, of course! :)

Moving on, because the nature of this theory is that you have one idea, and it looks like it's going somewhere and then you just hit a brick wall. The reason I guess I'm having a hard time seeing how Ramsay is important to this whole thing is because he just seems like an ordinary psychopath, nothing special, just really really sick and vile: or is that special in itself? So Ramsay's importance outside of being a convenient scapegoat for his father's crimes is eluding me. But the similar reaction that Ramsay and Craster have to being called bastards is really eerie.

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Saw it there earlier aswel.The inherent difference between what wev been trying to uncover and their proposals is wev been looking at Roose as a very evil character.In the heresys from what iv been able to glean they dont see the others as the ultimate evil.If there was some kinda Northern alliance as is suggested above then alot of the information wev gathered wouldnt add up in accordance with the others not being truely evil.For example Rooses killing of Domeric and uncaring attitude to the faith of his unborn children.Everything wev hypothesised points towards Roose and his house as a whole being overtly sinister.It would make sense for the alliancde to have people working for them south of the Wall but i dunno....

Edit:I also think theres alot to be learnt about the Bolton history.Why exactly did they rebel against Stark rule so many times?They were peaceful allies for700years up to now but before that theres a vey bloody history between them and the Starks

There is a suggestion that the white walkers draw their power from the weirwoods, like the Children. In that case Roose would only have to sacrifice to the Dreadfort weirwood (if there is one?) to give his due to the Old Gods, and the white walkers, or Others (all of the Old races). I'm not saying that is what I believe but I just thought to give you the information.

About the Boltons rebellions against the Starks, I think it is Winterfell they want. There is a distinct possibility that there is something in Winterfell, say in the crypts perhaps, that they are after. Something they think will give them power, some knowledge, or something less subtle. The Starks power could stem from Winterfell, and we know there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, according to said Starks, but we don't know why. Roose could know. Lady Dustin seem to be very curious about the crypts, and Mance Rayder also. Jon dreams about the crypts, something is pulling him there and the darkness down there scares him. I think something powerful is down there in the darkness, whatever it is.

Could be the hearttree roots (I think the crypts could be a cavern of the Children originally), and an old weirthrone which could give access to the information network of the weirwoods, or something more substantial. Don't know if it is plausible that is what Roose is after though (there should be a hearttree in the Dreadfort too), but it could be connected to it.

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Roose turns out to be the Azor Ahai reborn. Or better yet, Ramsay turns out AA. And Bran is the ultimate tool of the Great Other.

Now that would be a twist.

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There is a suggestion that the white walkers draw their power from the weirwoods, like the Children. In that case Roose would only have to sacrifice to the Dreadfort weirwood (if there is one?) to give his due to the Old Gods, and the white walkers, or Others (all of the Old races). I'm not saying that is what I believe but I just thought to give you the information.

About the Boltons rebellions against the Starks, I think it is Winterfell they want. There is a distinct possibility that there is something in Winterfell, say in the crypts perhaps, that they are after. Something they think will give them power, some knowledge, or something less subtle. The Starks power could stem from Winterfell, and we know there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, according to said Starks, but we don't know why. Roose could know. Lady Dustin seem to be very curious about the crypts, and Mance Rayder also. Jon dreams about the crypts, something is pulling him there and the darkness down there scares him. I think something powerful is down there in the darkness, whatever it is.

Could be the hearttree roots (I think the crypts could be a cavern of the Children originally), and an old weirthrone which could give access to the information network of the weirwoods, or something more substantial. Don't know if it is plausible that is what Roose is after though (there should be a hearttree in the Dreadfort too), but it could be connected to it.

Where is the info on Boltons wanting Winterfell?They have it now so surely wed see what it is in the next book.I wouldnt have put this as a reason though-i always saw Winterfell as a cultural and historical capital.I do agree with you about the crypts though.If the Boltons were after the heartree then theyd have to be wargs to which i believe they could be and that if they were may practice human warging.But then many people look at the Boltons flaying as jealousy of the starks warging ability............ahh its all jumbling in my tired head.............if it is winterfell theyre after then that doesnt necessarily go against the ancient Bolton versus Stark battle im talking about.

the Dreadfort would certainly have a godswood-theyre an old house.

Brash perhaps Roose sees Ramsey as just what will be needed in the times to come if hes fighting towards the eventual downfall of modern man- a man with no moral pangs or qualms.I like the idea put forward that what makes Ramsey crazy is his refusal to thin his blood through leeching.Also to combat your first statement-is it not true that any man who knowingly allows for his offsprings deaths with total indifference inherentli evil?It goes against all the rules of nature.........therefore i cant imagine in any theory that Roose is even a grey character.I see Ramsey as a possible way for Roose to get where he needs to be when he needs to be there-a pawn in rooses game of shadows you could say

Edit:After some study on the subject of leeching it seems it was used to keep the body in balance-physically and mentally.Also mental illnesses.If theres dark magic in Boltons blood where his line runs true perhaps leeching thins the blood enough to allow normal functioning ie restore equilibrium.

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Where is the info on Boltons wanting Winterfell?

Well, they took it. They didn't take Arya/Jeyne to the Dreadfort and married her to Ramsay there, it was important for them to show the north that Ramsay is now lord of Winterfell. To me it seems the power over the north derives from Winterfell, traditionally, and perhaps there is also some substance behind it besides the symbolism of being the lord of the Stark residence.

...if it is winterfell theyre after then that doesnt necessarily go against the ancient Bolton versus Stark battle im talking about.

Precisely, that was my point.

Some more ideas about Boltons, BrosBeforeSnows postes this in the #1 Heresy thread:

As for the name Bolton, it's a name of Anglo-Saxon origin, meaning either "bent land", or "enclosed dwelling", so I'm not sure if there's any significance there.

However, if we assume there is a Westerosi origin to the name, rather than an Anglo-Saxon one, it could have a different meaning. The word "bolt", for example, can mean "arrow", or "movable rod that fastens a gate". Alternate meanings include, "to discontinue support" or "to break with", and "to examine and separate". And the archaic meaning of the word is, "with sudden meeting or collision".

I'm most intrigued by the latter definitions; i.e. "to break with", "to examine and separate", and "a sudden collision". We know that the Boltons broke with the Starks, and have been at odds with them for many hundreds, if not thousands of years. Perhaps the rift was a sudden one (i.e. "a sudden collision")? We also know that flaying people is a Bolton family tradition, which is literally the practice of separating someone from their skin.

So perhaps there's something there? I don't know.

I think that the Boltons and the Starks have an intimate history, and they are probably related since way back. All the northern noble houses should be, like European royalty...

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