Cercei's public penitence procession: Did the punishment fit the crime?

[The King in the South]

Well what do we know?

Cersei was screwing Jaime before Tywin even made a bid for the match between her and Rhaegar.

We know she supported Jaimes rise to the kingsguard because it would allow them to still be together at the capitol.

We know she screwed Jaime on the day of her wedding.

We know that anytime someone was making moves of setting things aright in regards to the lannister bastards, Littlefinger makes a move to counteract that.

We know that if she had dropped three black haired, blue eyed babes, neither Stannis, nor Jon or Ned would've had cause to go to war.

The only one who still likely might've done so is Renly.

Um, the bid for Rhaegar was made when Cersei and Jaime were 10...so no

I agree with what you're saying, but I made a point a ways back about the fact that she actively aborted Robert's kids. She made it a point that she would never be pregnant with his ofspring. That's a huge slap in the face IMHO

Is it more a cruel slap in the face than being abused both sexually and physically? ehh.

One could very well have made the arguement that if Robert had actually bothered just a tiny bit to be a good husband, things would have bene loads better

[Revan Baratheon]

Um, the bid for Rhaegar was made when Cersei and Jaime were 10...so no

Is it more a cruel slap in the face than being abused both sexually and physically? ehh.

One could very well have made the arguement that if Robert had actually bothered just a tiny bit

to be a good husband, things would have bene loads better

Actually they were....uh..doing it doggy style until their mom caught them.After that they were separated until Jaime was around 15-16 at which point Cersei makes furious love to him in exchange that he joins the KG.

To be fair to Robert,he did try a little during his first few years of marriage when he was quite courteous and polite to her(cersei was very happy during the morning of their wedding when the smallfolk were cheering her and robert..until she saw jaime),he also tried to involve her in his hobbies like hunting(he was forever asking her to accompany him and all) but yea overall he was a fail as a husband.

[The King in the South]

Actually they were....uh..doing it doggy style until their mom caught them.After that they were separated until Jaime was around 15-16 at which point Cersei makes furious love to him in exchange that he joins the KG.

To be fair to Robert,he did try a little during his first few years of marriage when he was quite courteous and polite to her(cersei was very happy during the morning of their wedding when the smallfolk were cheering her and robert..until she saw jaime),he also tried to involve her in his hobbies like hunting(he was forever asking her to accompany him and all) but yea overall he was a fail as a husband.

Err no. It's never once mentioned that they were having sex when they were only ten years old. That came along later, probably at the onset of puberty.

[Queen Cersei I]


One can similarly argue that if Robert had been a bette husband, Cersei'd have remained faithful and Jon Arryn wouldn't have died.


Here, allow me to demolish this argument before others do so--

No, Cersei is a dirty, filthy whore, and never intended to be faithful to Robert. This is made clear when, in ADWD, she says, "I fucked Jaime on my wedding day." (GASP! OH, THE HUMANITY!!!!)

I find it funny (and I'm not talking about you here) how the arguments of so many as to whether or not Robert's conduct explained Cersei's choice to have babies by another men hangs so much on her intention to be faithful or unfaithful to her husband.

In the past I've argued that Robert dug his own grave with Cersei when he hit, cheated on and, most of all, raped her. To this, people have objected, "You can't use this excuse! Cersei intended to cheat on Jaime from the beginning! From the beginning, when she looked at Jaime's unhappy face at the wedding, she was unfaithful!" Before ADWD, Cersei defenders would insist that, no really, Cersei DID intend to be faithful, as a defense for her, as if to prove that only under those conditions was Robert's treatment of her appalling. (This seems to be the books implication as well-- that Cersei was largely to blame, and that her cheating was somehow morally different than Robert's.)

As if to resolve this little conundrum, in ADWD, GRRM has Cersei thinking, "I fucked Jaime the day of my wedding." So there you go-- the little whore always intended to be unfaithful! Robert was her victim! Or something.

Honestly, I'd like to venture the following controversial opinion-- that Cersei DID intend to be unfaithful to king Bob all along, and that it hardly matters. He was unfaithful to her. And if he didn't shag some other girl the day of his wedding, you can bet he did so within a week of it. Whatever-- I wouldn't characterize this behavior as evil. They were in an unhappy marriage, and it’s understandable that they would stray.

GRRM's portrayal of Cersei as monstrous and, as Tyrion puts it, "greedy," lies in the fact that-- gasp-- even if Robert had turned out to be loving, supportive, and decent husband, she still would have continued to love and sleep with her twin. Shocking indeed. That Cersei would take the exact same privilege that men in her society take for granted.

As for the argument that, as queen, Cersei "owed" Robert legitimate heirs, I think it becomes very interesting in light of his repeated rapes of her. Now, I confess-- I remain utterly baffled as to why GRRM would fail to reveal such a game changing event until the fourth book. It is only then that we learn that Robert has raped Cersei, started doing so during the first weeks of their marriage, and did so on a regular basis for years. (Those who insist this was to create further ambiguity and sympathy for Cersei, I disagree. While there is a fleeting sympathy for her as she recalls the act itself, it seems as though GRRM never places Cersei's being raped as an explanation or mitigation as to why she "treasonously" chose not to bear her husbands children. As Jaime, who knows well about the repeated rapes, puts it AFTER he has become good, “he wondered about the three treasons to whom Cersei had given the names Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella.”)

IMO, this is a huge game changer—it clearly explains why Cersei would chose to have another man’s son. Personally, I believe that women—whatever their time period—have the right to chose the father of their own children. (Though the text seems to put out every stop to make this look unambiguously evil on Cersei’s part, I can’t help but notice that she’s the only woman in the books to truly strike at the patriarchy at its very root. Very threatening.) However, the motive behind Cersei's decision to have her brother's children rather than Robert's--Robert called out the wrong name on their wedding night-- is rather ridiculous. It makes her seem rather spiteful and unbalanced.

In contrast, refusing to have the children of a man who raped you repeatedly (or, as Westeros would have it, claimed his rights) is utterly understandable. The frequent argument (made by those who claim that what Bob did to Cersei was not “really rape”) is that, as a woman of her time, Cersei should have been able to deal with it. There was no such thing as marital rape back then. Thus, as queen of Westeros, she should have sucked up her petty complaints and happily borne children with the face of her rapist.

I think such people are exhibiting an utter lack of insight into human psychology and emotions. Norms change, sure, but feelings never do. And it is only natural for a woman who has been raped by a man (husband or no, legal or not) to feel a strong distaste, even hatred for that man. Sure, back in the medieval era there were no doubt some girls who, for lack of better options, fell in love with their rapist husbands.*** However, I’d say that for one of those there had to be another who could not find it in herself to forgive a guy for violating her, disregarding her will, and abusing her body. What bothers me is that in the books, GRRM makes Cersei’s rebellion against Robert’s assumed rights (he can rape her repeatedly and treat her however the hell he wants to, but she is gonna bear him some heirs, that’s just the way it goes) look petulant, unbalance, petty, and unambiguously wrong. An offense against nature. Rather than, in this series supposedly based on moral ambiguity, portraying it as an act with a sort of ruthless righteousness to it, considering the ridiculous norms that women were forced to ascribe to.

That’s why I find Dany’s reaction to her situation with Drogo somewhat problematic. While I can appreciate that she had limited options and sometimes the best way to deal with an impossible situation is to accept it, I take issue with how her submission to Drogo is celebrated, portrayed as “natural” against Cersei’s rebellion against Robert. Dany’s strength is formidable and I do not want to insult her. However, I find the way that her submitting to Drogo whilst he “takes his pleasure” and later laying back to be passively stimulated by a handmaiden, thinking of Drogo the whole time, is contrasted with Cersei’s “wicked” consumption of Robert’s sperm and “unnatural” desire to assume the active role during sex to be problematic and troubling. Not to mention the fact that I find her pure, utter, and unconflicted love of Drogo to be rather inexplicable after his rough, rapey treatment of her proceeding his wedding night. (He brutally takes her from behind without foreplay in a way that hurts her so much she weeps and even unintentionally cries out, and her reaction is to…. Still adore him and hope he doesn’t see her tears? What the fuck? Well, I guess if Cersei would have just leaned back and held in her tears when Robert fucked her against her will she could have learned to enjoy it and be a real, healthy woman as well! Or…. something.)

But, I digress—IMO, given his repeated rapes of her, Cersei’s choice to refuse to have Robert’s children was understandable. No, if Robert had been a better husband, Cersei still would have cheated. But she very likely would have also borne Robert legitimate heirs to the throne.

***I am not saying by any means that all men in the middle ages were rapists. However, given the scanty rights of women and the state of marriages, imo, marital rape (or men “forcibly claiming their rights”) could only have been a dreadful commonplace.

[Darth Pipes]

Not just for the major crimes she has committed but for having Robert's bastards killed and allowing Qyburn to experiment on live people, Cersei deserves whatever she gets. Though what she was punished for (sex outside her marriage) was ridiculous.

Though I admit the penance walk was an uncomfortable thing.

[Independent George]

I think people need to compartmentalize in this debate. I have many, contradictory feelings about her punishment, all of which depend on how I look at the scene.

As a modern person with a real loathing for violence against women, with very 21st century views about the hypocrisy of sex-shaming, I was disgusted by it.

As a reader of a medieval fantasy novel, I was riveted by it.

If I'm asking whether it fit the crime within the context of the plot to a medieval fantasy novel, then yes, I'd say it did. It made perfect sense that this is how a High Septon would view crime and punishment, and it made sense from a dramatic perspective that it would play out the way it had.

If I'm asking in the context of a modern reader projecting those actions into my own personal view of sexual mores and notion of justice, it's not even a question. No, it's a cruel and degrading act that has no place in any society I want to live in. Which is a good thing, because it's not in the society I live in.

I think a lot of the heated nature of the debate comes from people answering the question in the first context, where others read it in the second context.

[Baitac]

I agree with what you're saying, but I made a point a ways back about the fact that she actively aborted Robert's kids. She made it a point that she would never be pregnant with his ofspring. That's a huge slap in the face IMHO

It is absolutely a slap in the face. Those two hated each other from the get go. They were miserable people living a miserable marriage.

[Queen Cersei I]

I agree with what you're saying, but I made a point a ways back about the fact that she actively aborted Robert's kids. She made it a point that she would never be pregnant with his ofspring. That's a huge slap in the face IMHO

It is certainly made to look so, but I disagree. After being raped by Robert repeatedly, it is utterly understandable that Cersei would not want his children inside of her.

Or, I'm sorry-- after having him hold her down and forcibly claim his rights (actions which caused her considerable pain the next day, and which he denied remembering when confronted), it is understandable that Cersei would be disgusted by the prospect of sleeping with Robert or carrying his child inside of her for nine months, and proceeding to raise a child with his hated face. Honestly, after having a man "force my legs apart" and hold me down as Robert is described as doing to Cersei, I would find it damn near impossible to bear his children as well. And I consider myself neither crazy nor evil.

"I can barely even stand for him to touch me," Cersei comments to Ned in AGOT. Many readers profess this as Cersei being a bitch. Personally, I can't say I blame her one bit for feeling this way.

[Baitac]

I know right.....

Fighting a war to rid the realm of a mad king, which cost the lives of your family and friends.

Then having the nerve to be upset and unwilling to allow the powerful house that sat stolidly out the war to give the figurative finger to the people who shed blood and lost friends winning the defining conflict of the generation.

Because thats what it amounts to.

They fight a war to rid the realm of incestuous, inbred, sadistic and irrational monarchs, and she decides to plop out three inbred shits. After her family sat the war out.

That fukking Stannis, Jon and Ned....so selfish.

The Targaryens ruled for a long time. There were good Targs and there were bad ones. Aerys was crazy. He had to go. May I remind you that the Starks were kings of the North until one of them kneeled. In this world, ruling families come and go and people die in the process. I'm sure that not everyone was always "pureblood". As a matter of fact it seems that "bastards" can magically turn into "purebloods" according to convenience.

[Winter's Knight]

I have a question: in our world, wives could sue for annulment if their husbands did not perform their conjugal duties-would this hold in Westorors? Could Selyse for instance claim that Stannis was not fulfiling his end of the bargain?

[Fire_Kiss]

So, I was looking for a wuote to prove the fact that Cersei and Jamie had been lovers since pre-puberty... I havent found it yet.

I DID find this, for all of you who think punishment is one-sided on the females...

“Why not both?” she whispered. “Pluck the little rose for me, and you will not find me to be ungrateful.”

“The little... Margaery, you mean?” Ser Osney’s ardor was wilting in his breeches. “She’s the king’s wife. Wasn’t there some Kingsguard who lost his head for bedding the king’s wife?”

“Ages ago.” She was his king’s mistress, not his wife, and his head was the only thing he did not lose. Aegon dismembered him piece by piece, and made the woman watch. Cersei did not want Osney dwelling on that ancient unpleasantness, however. “Tommen is not Aegon the Unworthy. Have no fear, he will do as I bid him. I mean for Margaery to lose her head, not you.”

That gave him pause. “Her maidenhead, you mean?”

From Cersei IV (AFFC)

[Fire_Kiss]

It is certainly made to look so, but I disagree. After being raped by Robert repeatedly, it is utterly understandable that Cersei would not want his children inside of her.

Or, I'm sorry-- after having him hold her down and forcibly claim his rights (actions which caused her considerable pain the next day, and which he denied remembering when confronted), it is understandable that Cersei would be disgusted by the prospect of sleeping with Robert or carrying his child inside of her for nine months, and proceeding to raise a child with his hated face. Honestly, after having a man "force my legs apart" and hold me down as Robert is described as doing to Cersei, I would find it damn near impossible to bear his children as well. And I consider myself neither crazy nor evil.

"I can barely even stand for him to touch me," Cersei comments to Ned in AGOT. Many readers profess this as Cersei being a bitch. Personally, I can't say I blame her one bit for feeling this way.

You know, I understand that she hated him. But it was her duty as a BARATHEON to have his children. But not once. EVER. does she even think of herself as a Baratheon.

[Baitac]

I have a question: in our world, wives could sue for annulment if their husbands did not perform their conjugal duties-would this hold in Westorors? Could Selyse for instance claim that Stannis was not fulfiling his end of the bargain?

I think that non-consummation of marriage is grounds for annulment. Stannis and Selyse have consummated their marriage and lived a long time as man and wife. At best, one can ask for the other's divorce for irreconcilable differences. Being that Miss Meli is around, Selyse can sue her for alienation of affection. Do you believe that Selyse would do that? I think that she is under Meli's powers as well,

[Lord Damian]

I think Kevan was not only trying to humble Cersei personally in regards to her own attitude but also to destroy her once powerful credibility with the people. Lets face it, we all knew she and Joff were the evil doers but everyone blamed Tyrion the Imp because he was "different". Kevan wanted to break the "mystique" Cersei had over people therefore humbling the public view of her as well as herself.

[Queen Cersei I]

You know, I understand that she hated him. But it was her duty as a BARATHEON to have his children. But not once. EVER. does she even think of herself as a Baratheon.

Shocking indeed. :rolleyes:

Honestly, after a man raped me, I certainly would not want to adopt his name.

Furthermore, I have no idea what Cersei's pride in her own name and rejection of Robert's has to do with her being evil. What you call insufferable wickedness here would be dubbed by some as feminism.

You know, I understand that she hated him. But it was her duty as a BARATHEON to have his children.

Yes, this is the same argument I hear repeatedly when posters claim that a. Despite his having raped her, Cersei owed Robert legitimate children. :stillsick: And b. Cersei's cheating was morally different from Robert's. Because her society said so.

You know, I understand that she hated him. But it was her duty as a BARATHEON to have his children.

Generous of you. However, Cersei never chose to become a Baratheon (or a BARATHEON as you put it). As a woman in a patriarchal society, she was given by her father to another man-- Robert, in this case. And as such, she was presumed to have the duty to give him sex whenever he wanted it, bear him as many children as he wanted, etc. You accept this as legitimate. I call it appalling. And I cannot blame her one bit for rebelling against it.

(And yes, I do realize Cersei is no feminist herself, and cares little about the rights of women in general. However, in insisting on chosing the father of her own children, she did claim a feminist right for herself unimagined in her society.)

You know, I understand that she hated him. But it was her duty as a BARATHEON to have his children.

Also, there is the issue of the fact that when Cersei married Robert, (and became "a BARATHEON"), she did not know that her husband would chose to rape her on a regular basis. The argument that "she knew what she was getting herself into when she married him, and just wanted to be queen" does not hold up. She could hardly have imagined that her husband would take to raping her regularly, or beating her.

[Queen Cersei I]

So, I was looking for a wuote to prove the fact that Cersei and Jamie had been lovers since pre-puberty... I havent found it yet.

The fact that Jaime and Cersei have "imitated the animals" since they were small children is well known-- Jaime informed us of that in AFFC. However, it appears that the two did not consumate their marriage until they were 15, and Cersei dressed up as a serving maid and went to visit Jaime.

I'm not quite sure what that has to do with anything, though.....

[Revan Baratheon]

Lol Queen Cersei pwned you Fire_Kiss :P

[Many and More]

But not once. EVER. does she even think of herself as a Baratheon.

Uh, that would be because she isn't a Baratheon. She's a Lannister.

[Revan Baratheon]

Uh, that would be because she isn't a Baratheon. She's a Lannister.

Uh when chicks marry,their surname changes from their house to their husbands.

For eg:Catelyn Tully-Catelyn Stark

Lysa Tully-Lysa Arryn

So technically they BECOME a member of their husbands house,even if they werent born as one

[Winter's Knight]

Uh when chicks marry,their surname changes from their house to their husbands.

For eg:Catelyn Tully-Catelyn Stark

Lysa Tully-Lysa Arryn

So technically they BECOME a member of their husbands house,even if they werent born as one

I shall turn this around and say that Robert never made her feel welcome in his life, he never treated her with the respect and consideration she deserved as his wife and queen.

So really she was a Baratheon in name only.