Wars of Religion

[SerStinger]

As far as I know there are no laws against atheinsm also,I haven't heard of anyone being tortured because of religion, pople who blow themselves are just idiots and they do it not because thair religion demands it but because thei see it as a means to wage war.As for circumcision(which I myself am strongly against) there are people who do it evef if it's not part of thair religion.Expressing oponion is not intlerant yet I have never heard anyone religious speaking against atheism while on the other hand almost every atheist I have met speeks against religion and how it shouldn't exist, that is why I say atheists are more intolerant.

You have a lot of reading to do then. I can't compensate for your lack of education. You may look up inquisition as a start.

But then again, speaking out against something doesn't mean being intolerant. I want to destroy religion, but by convincing people of its evil, not by force. I wouldn't think a religious person who says "I want all atheists to believe in God" is intolerant.

[E-Ro]

Thank you. Why hasn't someone said this before?

I did say this, no one listened.

Judging by you atheists nowadays have become more intolerant than religios people and if you ask me atheism is synonymous to immorality.

LOFUCKINGL :rofl: Tell that to all the highly religious preists who rape little boys. Is the word preist synonymous with immorality to you ?

[E-Ro]

You have a lot of reading to do then. I can't compensate for your lack of education. You may look up inquisition as a start.

No one suspects the spanish inquisition!

[Fire and Blood!]

You have a lot of reading to do then. I can't compensate for your lack of education. You may look up inquisition as a start.

But then again, speaking out against something doesn't mean being intolerant. I want to destroy religion, but by convincing people of its evil, not by force. I wouldn't think a religious person who says "I want all atheists to believe in God" is intolerant.

I am talking about the present, I know about the inqusition and other practices of the past which no longer exist and thus are irrelevant.

I myself am a religios person who would like all atheists to start believing in God (or Gods) but I wouldn't try making them, if they want to be atheists so be it.That is the difference between me and you.

[E-Ro]

I myself am a religios person who would like all atheists to start believing in God (or Gods)

See, this I think is the problem why do you want that? It does not affect you in any way at all what I do or dont beleive in. Why is it so important to you that I beleive in a god?

[Fire and Blood!]

LOFUCKINGL :rofl: Tell that to all the highly religious preists who rape little boys. Is the word preist synonymous with immorality to you ?

Being a pries and truly believing in God is not the same thing.You can't convince me that someone who truly believes in a higher power is capable of committing such acts.

[E-Ro]

Being a pries and truly believing in God is not the same thing.You can't convince me that someone who truly believes in a higher power is capable of committing such acts.

Oh ok I think I understand now the people who commit those horible acts and brand themselves as religious are not really religous. They are liars.

[Fire and Blood!]

See, this I think is the problem why do you want that? It does not affect you in any way at all what I do or dont beleive in. Why is it so important to you that I beleive in a god?

I honestly believe it would be better for you.However it isn't important for me what you believe or not, as I said I wouldn't try to make you or anyone else change their beliefs.I said I would be happy if it happens not that I would do anything to make it happen.

[E-Ro]

I honestly believe it would be better for you.

Really all it would do is make my sunday mornings boring :P lol. Anyway if the high septon gets to much power it will change westeros, they might try to force the north to convert. It could get bad pretty quickly.

[Fire and Blood!]

Oh ok I think I understand now the people who commit those horible acts and brand themselves as religious are not really religous. They are liars.

Well being a priest is a job like any other you don't have to truly believe to be one.And given their actions I highly doubt they truly believe, if they did how would they explain what they have done before God?

[SerStinger]

I am talking about the present, I know about the inqusition and other practices of the past which no longer exist and thus are irrelevant.

They don't exist because we've been fighting them all along. Plus, the world is not USA. There are many places in the world with same situation. and in the western world we have problems regarding homophobia, women's right, contraception, abortion, stem cell research, teaching evolution in school, waging wars like Iraq, censorship, and many other problems rooted in religion.

I myself am a religios person who would like all atheists to start believing in God (or Gods) but I wouldn't try making them, if they want to be atheists so be it.That is the difference between me and you.

Why do you think I'm trying to MAKE you to be an atheist? I only want to convince you. Believe me, I will be in the front line of fight against anyone trying to pass laws limiting the freedom of religion.

I honestly believe it would be better for you.

And I honestly believe it would be better for you not to believe in a religion.

Why am I so intolerant again?

[Fire and Blood!]

Really all it would do is make my sunday mornings boring :P lol. Anyway if the high septon gets to much power it will change westeros, they might try to force the north to convert. It could get bad pretty quickly.

I doubt it the Seven and the old Gods have lived in peace for thousands of years I don't see that changing right now.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Irrelevant, even if this lie was true. Holocaust would be impossible without the ages and ages of antisemitism which was fueled by Christianity and Islam.

Hitler himself stayed within the church for tactical reasons, which is damning enough, but a lot of the most important Nazis were indeed atheists and there was quite a bit of anti-clerical sentiment in the party. And if they had truly religious feelings they were often more inspired by their 'Germanic roots' - those precious ancestors were pageans rather than Christians, so a proper Nazi was more likely to celebrate Yule rather than Christmas.

I'm Austrian, and sadly, there are still some of those jokers around here, even if they don't call themselves like that and officially denounce the implication - spiritual sucessors, you could say. When my mother was a young girl, she got roped into going to some of their events by a friend, not realizing immediately what was up. What finally tipped her parents off was when she told them how those people would always use certain slurs when talking about priests ('Pfaffe' instead of 'Pfarrer'). For many of the most passionate Nazis, their antisemitism was indeed not religiously motivated - their religion, if they had any, was pagean, not Christian, and the historic Germanic Pageans did not have any beef with Jews for simple lack of opportunity, I would assume.

Can't argue with your point that Christian antisemitism certainly prepared the ground on a wider demographic level and made things a lot easier for the Nazis, though.

Stalin and Co. are probably a better example for mass murder without the need for a religious framing.

I would object to the notion that some wars were indeed solely caused by religion, for the banal reason that nothing in this world ever seems to be caused by one single reason - multicausality! But religion certainly does often make things worse.

Concerning Westeros, it's a very interesting question. So far Westeros has been characterized by a frankly astonishing amount of religious tolerance - even interfaith marriages seem to be no problem. The dominant Faith of the Seven has not shown any of the missionary zeal which often characterizes monotheistic/manichean religions. Even in times when the Faith had their own militia the people in Winterfell apparently had no trouble keeping the old Gods. The recent militarization seems more fueled by the righteous fury of the downtrodden smallfolk shaking their fists at the depravity of the ruling class - right now, they seem more into classwarfare than persecuting other religions, but it might just be a matter of time till the movement gets corrupted.

R'hollor followers too are quite a bit motivated by class issues - they seem to be rather big on the anti-slavery agenda. They certainly show a lot less potential for religious tolerance and I'm sure that will cause some problems. It's causing problems already in Stannis camp and it will endanger a potential Stannis/North/wildling alliance. Stannis has never been much of a true believer anway, it seems rather unlikely that Rhollor will be able to take root in the North. The other Red Priests are currently planning to cast their lot with Dany because of their anti-slavery thing and Dany herself has proven quite spiritually flexible, not exactly denouncing the Faith of the Seven but quite attuned to her new Dothraki religion too. I don't really see her support a Red Priest quest for a religious monopoly. Surely she's not going to suffer them trying to burn her Dothraki for sticking with their old Gods.

[Fire and Blood!]

They don't exist because we've been fighting them all along. Plus, the world is not USA. There are many places in the world with same situation. and in the western world we have problems regarding homophobia, women's right, contraception, abortion, stem cell research, teaching evolution in school, waging wars like Iraq, censorship, and many other problems rooted in religion.

Why do you think I'm trying to MAKE you to be an atheist? I only want to convince you. Believe me, I will be in the front line of fight against anyone trying to pass laws limiting the freedom of religion.

And I honestly believe it would be better for you not to believe in a religion.

Why am I so intolerant again?

I do not live in the USA I am a Bulgarian.An here in Bulgaria the only problem we have ever had which had anything to do with religion has been when under Ottoman ocupation the Turks tried to convert us to islam by force and that was quite a long time ago.

I never ment that you are particuraly intolerant I ment that religios people are no more intolerant than you and I said that because you said religion deifies intolerance.

[Irri's Bear]

Concerning Westeros, it's a very interesting question. So far Westeros has been characterized by a frankly astonishing amount of religious tolerance - even interfaith marriages seem to be no problem. The dominant Faith of the Seven has not shown any of the missionary zeal which often characterizes monotheistic/manichean religions. Even in times when the Faith had their own militia the people in Winterfell apparently had no trouble keeping the old Gods. The recent militarization seems more fueled by the righteous fury of the downtrodden smallfolk shaking their fists at the depravity of the ruling class - right now, they seem more into classwarfare than persecuting other religions, but it might just be a matter of time till the movement gets corrupted.

R'hollor followers too are quite a bit motivated by class issues - they seem to be rather big on the anti-slavery agenda. They certainly show a lot less potential for religious tolerance and I'm sure that will cause some problems. It's causing problems already in Stannis camp and it will endanger a potential Stannis/North/wildling alliance. Stannis has never been much of a true believer anway, it seems rather unlikely that Rhollor will be able to take root in the North. The other Red Priests are currently planning to cast their lot with Dany because of their anti-slavery thing and Dany herself has proven quite spiritually flexible, not exactly denouncing the Faith of the Seven but quite attuned to her new Dothraki religion too. I don't really see her support a Red Priest quest for a religious monopoly. Surely she's not going to suffer them trying to burn her Dothraki for sticking with their old Gods.

Thank you for actually discussing Westeros. Do you think one religion will win? and if so which?

[SerStinger]

I never ment that you are particuraly intolerant I ment that religios people are no more intolerant than you and I said that because you said religion deifies intolerance.

Many religious people are not intolerant at all. Martin Luther King Jr. who was the symbol of tolerance was a priest. But we're not talking about people here. Religion, as an institution, and as an ideology, is intolerant.

[Scipio Africanus]

Thank you for actually discussing Westeros. Do you think one religion will win? and if so which?

This is why I loathed to reply this thread with many historical or ecclastical references, this discussion could turn ugly quickly and I've already seen a few godwins slinged around.

The majority of Westeros seem to support the Faith of the Seven, up to the Neck. Iron Islands support a minor religion, the Drowned God. The North remained followers of the old religion of the First Men, the Old Gods, which the CotF worshipped. R'hollor seems a relatively new religion. Can't really judge but it is taking up quite a bit of populairity in Essos.

In Westerors, only men directly in contact with Stannis seem to be converting to R'hollor. Thoros is converting some in the Riverlands but overall 80% at the very least still follows the Faith of the Seven or another religion.

However, things can change quickly of course, depending on the course of events. And more importantly, what Mel can conjure up and claim to be the work of R'hollor.

Still, I don´t really get the impression that religion is THAT important in ASOFAI. Unlike the medieval world of western Europe, the Faith for example doesn´t seem to have that much influence in worldly government. They do own property, but till Cercei reinstalled the Faith Militant they had no order force of their own. The Faith seems to have been restricted to carrying out buriel and marriage rites. I don´t recall any mention of any obligatory sermons on a chosen day (for any religion of that matter). People just visited shrines when they pleased or so it seems. The Faith at least is active in charity works. They also seem to have a priest caste and system. Overal though, apart from the followers of R'hollor, the other religions seem fairly tolerant to one another.

Which is why I don't think a religious war will happen any time soon, R'hollor is still very much in the minority and maybe won't survive if Stan and Mel fall. While I won't rule out R'hollor followers will clash with Faith followers at some point during ASOFAI I think overall it will be a minor affair.

[Naathi Prince]

First off, 70% was not an accurate number.

Secondly, even if religion is simply an excuse, that doesn't condone religion. Why religion can be such a good excuse for starting the wars? Why does it have such a huge potential for being misused? Imagine the generals and the commanders are doing it simply for power. What about the soldiers? The people who support the war effort? If religion is used to brainwash people, and it is, that proves that religion is harmful to the humanity. Only religion can provide the motivation for someone to do evil things such as that.

Thirdly, even if we say that religion is not responsible for the most the wars, that would still take off an inch of the mountain of the evils of religion. Religion is the cause or the main supporter of ignorance, bigotry, lack of critical thinking, sexual prudence, child abuse, rape (in the form of arranged marriages), opposition to science, etc etc. If I want to put it in a nutshell, religion creates slaves. Religious people have a slave mentality. (That also answers the poster who said then what about Buddhism and Quakers). We need people who value critical thinking over faith, freedom over unnecessary taboos, and skepticism over certainty.

Now, are there NO religious people who are like that? There are, but judge for yourself, (1) are they numerous? (2) can you really call them religious? Because if someone says God is energy or is a deist, s/he is not really religious.

By the way, can we really say that Melly is using religion as an excuse? We have had her POV, and we know she sincerely believes in the shit she does. If she was not a religious nut she would be a great character. She's nice and charismatic and able, but dies evil things because she thinks those evil things are the right thing to do.

You are still oversimplifying. You could easily say that religion is responsible for modern music, art, and the university system as well. Just because you are opposed to religion doesn't make all the smears against it you are posting correct. As multiple posters here have pointed out, even if you accept religion as an occasional primary reason for war (and I think when you look at the demographics in muslim countries, you'll see that the issue is too many aimless men between 16-30), 70% is still ridiculous, and you are creating an entirely one-sided narrative. Do you know how many German, Polish, French, Danish, and other Christians saved jews during ww2 due to their faith? Have you heard of Dietrich Bonhoffer? Look at the history of most charitable organizations Many of them were started for religious intent.

[Naathi Prince]

As far as Westeros, the only faith I see as a potential problem is R;hollor. The Faith of the Seven and the Old Seem to have come to a sort of understanding (ie a lot of people swear by both) because they are very different and not even necessarily contradictory. Whereas R'hollor teaches Manichean duality, which doesn't allow for that. We've seen this as an issue already with Stannis.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Thank you for actually discussing Westeros. Do you think one religion will win? and if so which?

I think the only religion really intent on 'winning' (in the sense of establishing a monoply by rooting out all others) is Rhollorism. All the others have a fairly good track record of peaceful coexistence. The Red Priests are the only ones to send missionaries. If they don't get to run the show in the end, the others will be fairly satisfied to stay on their turf.

I would be very surprised if the series ended with everyone worhsipping Rhollor. Right now Mel is painting the COTF (and Bran and Bloodraven) as agents of the Great Other. I could easily see that coming back to bite her... there are two possiblities:

1) Some people speculate that the COTF are indeed allied with the Others, but that theory is usually combined with the idea that the Others are not actually all that evil, and the real conflict will be along other lines (not Dany and Westeros vs The Others, but Westeros and the Others vs Dany). Few people see Dany winning in that scenario. The Others as potential allies would at any rate deflate Rhollorism, which is very much based on that manichean dichotomy.

2) Mel is wrong, wrong, wrong, the COTF turn out to be desperately needed allies. Mel would therefore be discredited by the end of the books and that's it for Rholorrism in Westeros.