What Varys Doesn't Say in the Epilogue...

[Swordbrother Oakeshott]

I personally don't believe Aegon is Illyrio and Serras son. Serra had golden hair, streaked with silver, not completly silver and blue eyes. She also died of a disease, I'm not 100% sure about the Blackfyres, but the Targaryens seem to be immune against disease, which Serras obviously wasn't. Also, as far as I remember, nothing in the books imply that Serra was ever a Blackfyre, not a single thing.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

To the flame war going on about Tyrion's opinion of Aegon, it is a pointless discussion. In this case whether Tyrion believes he is real or not, Tyrion is our unreliable narrator. The truth is not even Jon Con can tell us if he's real or not, only Varys knows for sure...

And as has been discussed upthread Varys' words regarding Aegon are not truly specific and not much can be gleaned there either. Whether or not Illyrio/Varys knows about a "dragon test" or not seems moot as well. They would have to know there's alot of risk sending Aegon to Dany. Maybe dragons will eat him, maybe the siege lines holding mereen capture him, maybe Dany imprisons him believing he's false... there's no way to know for sure since Illyrio has not been in contact with Dany but only gets reports and rumors (unless there is another planted spy).

Could there possibly be something in the chests that would've assisted Aegon's claim when he met his aunt? Is there gold in there to pay for passage through the mereenese siege lines? Could there be another rare gift (like the dragon's eggs) that would allow Dany to recieve Aegon favourably?

About a Blackfyre passing the "dragon's test" if there is one, this may go back to Brown Ben Plumm and his "Two drops" of dragon's blood. It has been discussed in other threads that without a father and mother with dragon's blood you will not recieve a natural affinity from the dragons as BBP seems to. This may be the reason (speculation) that the targs are incestuous, tho they themselves may have forgotten the true reason over 300 yrs w/ no dragons hence some marrying for love. Some have even speculated the lack of inbreeding led to the decline of the actual dragons (growing smaller and smaller until unable to hatch).

In any case, no offense Uncle Impe but if you don't want ppl here to label you a troll, just be respectful in your answering posts. Just because someone understood something differently doesn't mean you have to belittle them to get your point across. Their interpretations are just as valid as yours. Also with the multi quote button you only need one post to respond to two different posters, tho many double posters that way on here so maybe not such a big deal on this forum.

[Ser Illin']

I personally don't believe Aegon is Illyrio and Serras son. Serra had golden hair, streaked with silver, not completly silver and blue eyes. She also died of a disease, I'm not 100% sure about the Blackfyres, but the Targaryens seem to be immune against disease, which Serras obviously wasn't. Also, as far as I remember, nothing in the books imply that Serra was ever a Blackfyre, not a single thing.

I dunno if you've read the Dunk and Egg novels, but they answer many of your concerns. Daeron II married Myriah Martell and had several children by her, some of which looked like Martells and some of which looked like Targaryens. His heir, Baelor Breakspear, who had the Martell traits, went on to have sons of his own, one with Martell traits, another with Targ ones. So it seems as though these traits are able to skip generations.

Also, the Great Spring Sickness mentioned in the novelas devastated the Targaryen dynasty, killing Daeron II, as well as all of Baelor Breakspear's descendants. As such, it seems unlikely that Targaryens are truly immune to disease. This notion mostly seems to be a myth perpetuated by Aerys/Viserys as "proof" that Targs are superior to other bloodlines. I don't think it's altogether significant that Dany doesn't remember ever being sick. As far as I can tell, if a kid got seriously sick, he wouldn't be alive to remember it...

[Swordbrother Oakeshott]

Regarding the sickness thing, I stand corrected.

Still, there doesn't seem to be anything to imply that Serra was a Blackfyre descendent. That is a thought that seem to have been conjured up in some peoples' minds, no offence, not trying to be rude, speculating IS fun. Regarding the traits thing, I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. Yes, they can skip generations it seems, but what does that have to do with Serra? It is no more proof that she is a Blackfyre, is it? Serra is stilll mostly golden blonde with silver streaks and she has blue eyes, like lots of lyseni, and Illyrio has golden blonde hair, though I'm not sure which colour his eyes are. IMO there is no substantial evidence to support that Serra is a Blackfyre. If there is, I would be glad to hear it.

[Ser Illin']

At the end of the day, I agree with you. I believe there's evidence to suggest a familial link between Illyrio, Serra, and Aegon (Illyrio seems oddly fond of him, he has children's clothes in his house but never makes mention of children, etc.). There's nothing in the text outright that suggests that Serra is a Blackfyre. I do, however, believe that the Blackfyres are too important in the recent history of Westeros not to have a hand in what is happening right now. I was waiting for them to make an appearance, and if they are indeed to appear in the series (which is in itself not an ironclad assumption), this seems like the perfect opportunity for them to do so.

But yes, it is pure (albeit fun) speculation.

[Swordbrother Oakeshott]

I forgot to mention that. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Aegon does share a familial link with Illyrio and Serra, Illyrio IS oddly fond of Aegon. This does not mean I believe that Serra or Illyrio have any Blackfyre blood in them though, as previously mentioned, traits do skip generations, and Aegon's traits could be the result of having old valyrian blood in him, not necessarily any form of Targaryen blood though. But this is just speculation!

Aegon is thought to be fifteen or sixteen by Tyrion. JonCon faked his death twelve years ago as of ADwD, meaning that Aegon could have stayed with Illyrio for 3-4 years after Varys smuggled him to Illyrio, which might account for the children's clothes... although they do fit Tyrion, who is larger than a 3 or 4 year old child.

[the average Other]

Aegon is thought to be fifteen or sixteen by Tyrion.

Which is another suspicious thing about Aegon, since the real Aegon, son of Rhaegar, should be 18 by now (about a year older than Jon, who is 17 in ADWD). Either Tyrion is mistaken or the age doesn't match.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Which is another suspicious thing about Aegon, since the real Aegon, son of Rhaegar, should be 18 by now (about a year older than Jon, who is 17 in ADWD). Either Tyrion is mistaken or the age doesn't match.

I guess in that case Tyrion is mistaken: If the age would not match (at least roughly), that would have been much more obvious when Aegon was supposed to be only a few years old, i.e. when Jon Con gets him. Jon Con is no living genetics laboratory and fatherhood tester, but he should have smelled a rat when he's presented with a 6-month old that he knows should be 4. But from his internal dialogue, it seems obvious that Jon Con believes Aegon to be the real deal.

[the average Other]

I guess in that case Tyrion is mistaken: If the age would not match (at least roughly), that would have been much more obvious when Aegon was supposed to be only a few years old, i.e. when Jon Con gets him. Jon Con is no living genetics laboratory and fatherhood tester, but he should have smelled a rat when he's presented with a 6-month old that he knows should be 4. But from his internal dialogue, it seems obvious that Jon Con believes Aegon to be the real deal.

If JonCon faked his death 12 years ago as Swordbrother Oakeshott says above, and the real Aegon was born about 18 years ago, then Jon would have expected to see a 6-year-old. If Tyrion's assessment is correct, then the boy'd have in reality been 4. Kids at that age change all the time, but on the other hand JonCon doesn't strike to me as the kind of a man who's got a lot of experience with kids, so I think it's just about possible he was fooled, especially if he saw what he wanted to see.

Or, you know, Tyrion is wrong. :rolleyes:

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I guess in that case Tyrion is mistaken: If the age would not match (at least roughly), that would have been much more obvious when Aegon was supposed to be only a few years old, i.e. when Jon Con gets him. Jon Con is no living genetics laboratory and fatherhood tester, but he should have smelled a rat when he's presented with a 6-month old that he knows should be 4. But from his internal dialogue, it seems obvious that Jon Con believes Aegon to be the real deal.

JonCon got Aegon, when he should be six. A four or five year old may pass for a six year old, especially with a lot emotion involved.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

my six year old is small for his age and would pass as younger, esp to someone not real familiar w/ kids. Did Jon-Con fake his death? I thought he was just exiled beyond the narrow sea. If he faked his death as well may lend credence to Septa Lemore possibly being another prominent figure who faked her own death: AD

[the average Other]

my six year old is small for his age and would pass as younger, esp to someone not real familiar w/ kids. Did Jon-Con fake his death? I thought he was just exiled beyond the narrow sea. If he faked his death as well may lend credence to Septa Lemore possibly being another prominent figure who faked her own death: AD

If memory serves, he faked his death when he left the sellsword company he was working for at the time, after he first faked a descent into alcoholism. All this so he could disappear from the map without anyone in Westeros starting to wonder.

I know that theory, and I'm ambivalent. She could be.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

If memory serves, he faked his death when he left the sellsword company he was working for at the time, after he first faked a descent into alcoholism. All this so he could disappear from the map without anyone in Westeros starting to wonder.

I know that theory, and I'm ambivalent. She could be.

ok thx for that info, so does that mean Varys was prob in contact with him ahead of time, advising him to slink off into obscurity before being introduced to baby Aegon?

[the average Other]

ok thx for that info, so does that mean Varys was prob in contact with him ahead of time, advising him to slink off into obscurity before being introduced to baby Aegon?

Yeah, definitely. Um, if it happened like I remember.

[Swordbrother Oakeshott]

He did fake his death and his descent into alcoholism to leave the sellsword company, so as not to arouse suspiscions, as you said the average Other.

Lemora being Ashara Dayne? Interesting.

[Jem]

It was Myles "Blackheart" Toyne - the then leader of the Golden Company - who convinced Jon Connington to fake his death and take up with Aegon. The alcoholism wasn't faked, that was real, Jon was a sad and desperate man back in those days, vulnerable and easily manipulated.

I tend to think that old Blackheart knew everything (ie that Aegon was really a Blackfyre and that there was a plot to put him on the throne in the guise of Rhaegar's son). It would be easy for Blackheart to convince Jon that the boy was real and that the job of looking after him was a noble one, because Jon liked, trusted and respected Blackheart and Jon really wanted to believe that Aegon was the son of his love, Rhaegar.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Yeah, I've always hoped Aegon was real but the Golden Company backing him, and Illyrio's comment, "some contracts are writ in blood" leads me to believe otherwise (along w/ logistics of baby switch as I mentioned upthread). I mean the golden company is loyal to the blackfyres, they don't owe the Targs crap beyond their enmity.

Now that I think about it shouldn't Viserys be an honorary Golden Company sellsword. they dip their skulls in gold upon death right? Viserys just kinda jumped the gun and did it while he was alive lol.

[Aedan Stormrage]

I got to thinking about Illyrio's phrase: "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon."

Meaning the Golden Company will follow even a Targaryen when there's no Blackfyre. But I can't help but wonder if it's not an ambivalent point meant to refer also to the nature of young heir Aegon.

[ab aeterno]

I got to thinking about Illyrio's phrase: "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon."

Meaning the Golden Company will follow even a Targaryen when there's no Blackfyre. But I can't help but wonder if it's not an ambivalent point meant to refer also to the nature of young heir Aegon.

Very good point; the only problem is that like you said, it could be taken either way. I'd put it as a point in favor of the Aegon Blackfyre hypothesis, though only just.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

I got to thinking about Illyrio's phrase: "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon."

Meaning the Golden Company will follow even a Targaryen when there's no Blackfyre. But I can't help but wonder if it's not an ambivalent point meant to refer also to the nature of young heir Aegon.

You have to had "the contracts writ in blood" for the GC. That clearly put the balance on the Blackfyre side.