There's No Way Stannis Survives Winterfell :(

[Scipio Africanus]

That is true Knight of Onions, but then again Victarion was commanding the iron fleet a man not exactly renowned as an intelligent or shrewd tactician and the siege of storm's end required him only to follow the advice of Maester Cressen by not surrendering.

He's got a reputation, is tough and determined, but genius is maybe over stating the case.

Stannis is a decent general but not exactly a genius. Blackwater pretty much proved he doesn't have that something extra's the truely brilliant generals have: a talent of turning adversity into victory.

- survived a siege at Storm's End against one of Westeros' most indifferent commanders, Mace Tyrell; was saved by the Onion Knight and Eddard Stark in the end; a mixed feat which serves more to describe Stan's character rather then his tactical genius

- decisively smashed Victarion Greyjoy's fleet at Fair Isle; his one true impressive victory as Victarion, while intellectually handicapped, knows his business around naval warfare (although he was younger then)

- decisively defeated at KL and the Blackwater; his mistake in appointing a person unskilled in naval warfare to take command of his fleet and his overconfidence in Red Mel's prophecies show that Stan has his limits as a commander

- victory against Mance Rayder's Wildlings; not bad considering Stan's numbers, but then again, the Free Folk were poorly armed, armoured, starving and engaged on an active front for 2 days before taken in the flank

- his likely phyrric victory at Winterfell against the Boltons/Freys; Northmen will decided the battle and that detail will not be lost on them, while Stan has likely suffered further losses amongst his remaining Southron troops during his forced march to Winterfell

All in all I'd say his result sheet will be checkered as a general.

[Lummel]

checkered is probably actually pretty good by westerosi standards. You can't win them all after all! ;)

[Rolex Baratheon]

Thats horrid reasoning. This is a proper flowing story, not a trolling platform where GRRM makes us expect something and then turns it upside down.

Bolton's men divided, half of them hate him, the ice breaking plan, Manderly outside with the Freys, its all looking good for Stannis.

[Pyrrhus of Epirus]

Stannis has the battle of winterfell in the bag, probably. With GRRM, who knows, but I feel pretty confident Stannis has simply come to far to go out now.

[Scipio Africanus]

not a trolling platform where GRRM makes us expect something and then turns it upside down.

Actually I sometimes feel Martin is trolling us. Give me back my Reek Jeor, Eddard, Robb etc. Martin! ;)

checkered is probably actually pretty good by westerosi standards. You can't win them all after all! ;)

Stannis won't like to hear this but...his bro Bob had a better track record. ;)

[Lummel]

Thats horrid reasoning. This is a proper flowing story, not a trolling platform where GRRM makes us expect something and then turns it upside down...

Really. I think GRRM is doing a pretty good job of setting up expectations and then surprising us.

...Stannis won't like to hear this but...his bro Bob had a better track record. ;)

No wonder Stannis grinds his teeth so much.

[MotherAnduin]

Stannis won't like to hear this but...his bro Bob had a better track record. ;)

Stannis has commanded in sea battles, sieges, sneak attacks, sacks. I would take Stannis over Robert. Robert was charismatic and a great warrior. But we do not know how his command style was. We do know he lead from the front always. I would rather have my commander safe to command or the army may break and run after the death of the commander like what happened at the Trident.

If Robert loved to go berserk, then he met his match in Tarly and was defeated by Tarly's vanguard alone. Though Robert retreated after an indecisive battle. After this battle Robert somehow lost his remaining men and wound up at Stoney Sept alone. Could be another defeat. But there is no mention of a war taking place. Did Robert just wander off to find some tail?

Robert is by far the best commander in the series. Stannis is right up there with him and comes a respectable second IMHO.

[Scipio Africanus]

Stannis has commanded in sea battles, sieges, sneak attacks, sacks. I would take Stannis over Robert. Robert was charismatic and a great warrior. But we do not know how his command style was. We do know he lead from the front always. I would rather have my commander safe to command or the army may break and run after the death of the commander like what happened at the Trident.

Haha really? Soldiers hate that, or rather hated that if generals did that. Officers before the 20th century led their troops from the front. Which is why, for example, during the American civil war officers and in particulair generals were killed in a higher ratio than enlisted men on the battlefield. During WWI generals commanded from the rear for the first time, and soldiers despised them for it (Blackadder Goes Forth made a few jokes about that).

If Robert loved to go berserk, then he met his match in Tarly and was defeated by Tarly's vanguard alone. Though Robert retreated after an indecisive battle. After this battle Robert somehow lost his remaining men and wound up at Stoney Sept alone. Could be another defeat. But there is no mention of a war taking place. Did Robert just wander off to find some tail?

Bob always combined work with pleasure I suppose. But I thought Bob was wounded and sought refuge at Stoney Sept? My memory on this is a bit hazy though.

Robert is by far the best commander in the series. Stannis is right up there with him and comes a respectable second IMHO

Bob has the best track record of any character we meet in the ASOFAI timeline. But second must come Robb, who beat several Lannister forces who in total outnumbered him. Tywin was pissing his codpiece and had to get Walder Heffner to rid him of Robb. ;)

[Yarp]

Not at all. ASOIAF is more than the story of the war of the five kings. Stannis was a major player in the war of the five kings, but is only a bit player in ASOIAF which is about the Stark children (including Jon) and Daenerys.

We know that the story will progress because Manderly is using Davos to bring Rickon to White Harbour, because Jon was stabbed and because Bran has met Bloodraven - these are sea changes in the plot. We have a Stark legitimist restoration on the cards, a big change at the Wall in the offing and Bran physically integrated into the deeper magical currents of the story.

While you can imagine fancy scenarios laying out how Stannis can grab the Iron Throne, this isn't the story of Stannis. If he dies and brings down the Bolton ascendency with him then he has already done a lot of work in the plot.

Agreed. I foresee Stannis going down the same road as all of Jon's father figures, especially since he's competing with Jon for AA. He'll at the very least cripple the Boltons, but the North is Jon's story.

[MotherAnduin]

Bob always combined work with pleasure I suppose. But I thought Bob was wounded and sought refuge at Stoney Sept? My memory on this is a bit hazy though.

We do not know what happened after Tarly defeated Robert. Tyrion claims the battle was indecisive so some part of Robert's army must have survived. What happens after that, is a mystery. How did Robert manage to lose his men? I love Robert but this is something that bothers me.

Bob has the best track record of any character we meet in the ASOFAI timeline. But second must come Robb, who beat several Lannister forces who in total outnumbered him. Tywin was pissing his codpiece and had to get Walder Heffner to rid him of Robb. ;)

Robb was great but i fear he did not have a strategic mind. He could not see Roose playing him like a fiddle. He wasted his forces in trying to take irrelevant castles like the Crag. He may have scorched the Westerlands but it was not enough. The man lacked vision and a goal.

[Scipio Africanus]

Robb was great but i fear he did not have a strategic mind. He could not see Roose playing him like a fiddle. He wasted his forces in trying to take irrelevant castles like the Crag. He may have scorched the Westerlands but it was not enough. The man lacked vision and a goal.

Actually he did keep Roose and Walder under guard by placing Roose and Nothern troops at the Twins - it was Edmure who decided he needed some time in the sun and pulled troops from the Twins and gave Roose and independant command. Roose, who had already converted to team Tywin, then sent the bulk of Robb's infantry to a trap at Duskendale. Without Robb's knowledge or consent.

And Robb did have a plan. By pillaging the Westlands he was spanking Tywin where it hurt - wrecking the Westlands economy while contributing to his own supply. He didn't have enough forces to siege Lannisport and the Rock anyway. And it was for a purpose too - Robb and mr. Blackfish wanted to ambush Tywin as the latter returned to stop Robb's pillaging. But Edmure ruined that plot by delaying Tywin's crossing, and again it was without Robb's knowledge or consent.

[Lion of Judah]

Not at all. ASOIAF is more than the story of the war of the five kings. Stannis was a major player in the war of the five kings, but is only a bit player in ASOIAF which is about the Stark children (including Jon) and Daenerys.

We know that the story will progress because Manderly is using Davos to bring Rickon to White Harbour, because Jon was stabbed and because Bran has met Bloodraven - these are sea changes in the plot. We have a Stark legitimist restoration on the cards, a big change at the Wall in the offing and Bran physically integrated into the deeper magical currents of the story.

While you can imagine fancy scenarios laying out how Stannis can grab the Iron Throne, this isn't the story of Stannis. If he dies and brings down the Bolton ascendency with him then he has already done a lot of work in the plot.

Nice insight and I am inclined to agree.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Really. I think GRRM is doing a pretty good job of setting up expectations and then surprising us.

No wonder Stannis grinds his teeth so much.

That just degrades the series. Reduces it to a troll platform, like I said. He's set up the battle in such a way logistically and strategically to show that it favours Stannis heavily and if anything this series is realistic.

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

We went into Blackwater thinking Stannis was supposed to win, so he lost.

Now GRRM has us thinking Stannis will win, so he's definitely going to lose.

This is the way such things go in ASOIAF.

Maybe that's Martin's ultimate twist, give us 5 thousand plus pages of material that makes us think that when he sets us up for something the opposite will happen. so in this case the ultimate twist would be setting us up for a Stannis win, and then he actually wins, twist!

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

Actually he did keep Roose and Walder under guard by placing Roose and Nothern troops at the Twins - it was Edmure who decided he needed some time in the sun and pulled troops from the Twins and gave Roose and independant command. Roose, who had already converted to team Tywin, then sent the bulk of Robb's infantry to a trap at Duskendale. Without Robb's knowledge or consent.

And Robb did have a plan. By pillaging the Westlands he was spanking Tywin where it hurt - wrecking the Westlands economy while contributing to his own supply. He didn't have enough forces to siege Lannisport and the Rock anyway. And it was for a purpose too - Robb and mr. Blackfish wanted to ambush Tywin as the latter returned to stop Robb's pillaging. But Edmure ruined that plot by delaying Tywin's crossing, and again it was without Robb's knowledge or consent.

so because edmure delayed tywin's crossing, tywin is given the opportunity later to turn his forces south and heads instead for king's landing, where he defeats stannis's army,

is it safe to say that Edmure's folly is the reason Robb and Stannis lost their wars?

[Scipio Africanus]

He's set up the battle in such a way logistically and strategically to show that it favours Stannis heavily

Stan was favoured to win at the battle of Blackwater but he didn't...

and if anything this series is realistic.

9 years old girls with the size of a wet rat killing grown men twice her height, weight and reach, ice demons creating hordes of undead, some hot girl walking through a bonfire and living, raising magical flying reptiles, multiple accounts of humans shapechanging into animals, people hooked up to trees effectively time travelling, warlocks being able to extend life beyond biological limits using drugs, Tywin Lannister's luck...

Nope series is perfectly realistic. :P ;)

so because edmure delayed tywin's crossing, tywin is given the opportunity later to turn his forces south and heads instead for king's landing, where he defeats stannis's army,

is it safe to say that Edmure's folly is the reason Robb and Stannis lost their wars?

Lets just say Edmure helped a lot. Not intentionally. Not without good intentions. But he definitely helped. Apart from the author needing a certain family to win. ;)

[Ponys123]

This is fiction my friends. The underdog wins.

[Sworn Shield]

I swear that there is so much emphasis that Stannis does not bend and will not bend that we will indeed see him bend the knee in the future. Probably to Jon Targaryen.

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

This is fiction my friends. The underdog wins.

tell that to poor dead ned stark

[Ponys123]

I swear that there is so much emphasis that Stannis does not bend and will not bend that we will indeed see him bend the knee in the future. Probably to Jon Targaryen.

That would be shitty writing.