Where's the Ethics, where's the Law? How about those Gods?

[blood of the dragoon]

Well first of all, not all our historic faiths came with a required code of ethics, though the more recent monotheistic ones tend to do so. Many think that the initial purpose of faiths was to rectify the curiosity of nature. The whole part of being attached to a code of ethics came later. But that's open for interpretation, and not entirely known by historians. However, the way I see it in Westeros, the faiths are more for the former purpose than the latter. But then, the monotheistic ones (the red priests' faith and the Bravosii faceless god) tend to have more of an impact on how people behave. Then again, having multiple different faiths influencing different cultures to behave differently is just a reflection of our Earth, so I see no difference here.

It seems like the Seven (the most popular Westerosii faith) has some influence in the laws of the seven kingdoms (which are technically imposed by the accepted king of the Andals). Since there are royal septons, Westeros laws are probably connected to the faith. One obvious example is the Trial by Combat law, for which the Seven are believed to influence the fight in favor of the innocent. But then, people break them all the time. Especially during war, when it's not clear who truly imposes those laws, and those who claim to do so cannot afford to exact punishment on too many of their subjects, as they need them to win the war (which is why soldiers are able to rape and pillage with impunity). It seems very clear to me from many PoV characters that there's a lot of generally accepted culturally imposed codes of morality (arguably more archaic than ours), it just happens that in Westeros (especially during war time), they're not followed as much. I imagine it's the same on Earth, especially during the dark ages.

Just because we want to see retribution, that doesn't mean that nature will impose it. In fact, it can be argued that people invented the concept of a god's post-death justice because they were so disillusioned with that the wicked could often get away with their wrongdoings in real life. That's just how the world works, and it's hard for people to accept. Since fiction is the product of a mind who generally favors simple closed-form justice, we don't often read/watch such reflections of inequity. But GRRM tries to write as naturally as possible. "Justice" is a man-made term, and he wants his world to be governed by nature, which ignores such distinctions.

I like this.

It reminds me of wartime atrocities in modern times, ie. Abu Ghraib.

[Eating My Wings]

The White Walkers are the good guys, OP.

The Others! :box:

[UVA]

Many of the comments on these forums reveal our own homegrown ethical biases. We want to see retribution for wrongdoing ("Just wait until Frey gets what's coming to him!"). We want to see courage and effort rewarded and villany punished. We want to root for the underdog. In general, we resent betrayal or theft or incest, or torture. We are surrounded by a world view due to the culture we grew up in. For many of us this opinion is based on English common law tradition

With some exceptions, I think you're correct -- we impose our experiences and values on these works and this may sometimes clash with what we perceive to be the morality/immorality of the characters in-universe. It also doesn't make it easier when one gets the sense that Martin loves to set up the struggle among a nihilistic worldview (e.g., Tyrion is a nihilist by ADWD and I think Martin has nihilistic tendencies re. the story in general) and many other moral/religious-based systems that serve as a basis for claims of power and righteousness (Stannis), retributive justice (post-RW Catelyn), and a growing sense of compassion (Jaime) for example. Ultimately though, ASOIAF is a quasi-medieval story written and understood in contemporary terms. I think that we are meant to have a non-morally relative reaction to many of the enormities and lesser crimes in the series for example.

There is no law in the world, because there is no formal code of justice. Slights are punished by death. maiming, or massacre. Anything goes, just as long as it's personal revenge. There are no courts or tribunals except the whim of the leader, What can possibly come from this, except chaos?

I don't know if the current upheavals are an accurate reflection of historical Westeros. While there is no Supreme Court of Westeros or formal law-making bodies; and the rule of law is not a driving force, there are sets of agreed-upon cultural norms -- oaths/vows are probably the most consistent binding concept.This society has traditional practices and precedents that can be contradictory and mutable but these are recognized and practiced in-universe as a means to sustain some order. That said, this society may never emerge from it's degenerative state, and if it does, it will be probably be unrecognizable, that is, no Iron Throne and a united Seven Kingdoms.

Chaos makes things interesting.

It does for a bit, but in my opinion, it gets very boring to read about if it's just empty-headed nihilism. Nihilism, of which chaos is an expression, is easy to write about and to understand. It's far more interesting and subtle to recognize these aspects and move beyond them in some way rather than wallowing in the Void.

[Starfell]

I believe that GRRM has said that he thought other fantasy writers had created a watered down "Disneyland version" of the Medieval setting and he wanted something more realistic for ASoIaF. So in light of that we do get a world where the nobility trample on the rights of the peasantry and get let off with a slap on the wrist if anything, and where anybody powerful enough or useful enough can do what they want (within reason) safe in the knowledge that the people who do deal with justice will turn a blind eye to it. It's not at all dissimilar to the real life period it's emulating. There is the idea of sin and religious law but when it comes to more secular matters, the notion that the law is above the men who make it hasn't yet taken root, nor has the idea of an independent judiciary. I'm sure that many laws have grown from religious ideas (such as the laws against incest) but remember, in real life we've got plenty of laws based in religious ideals or that became linked with religious ideals that didn't stop atrocities like the St Brice's Day Massacre for instance, nor did they stop class exploitation or murder and theivery.

On top of that we are shown a time of war in which atrocities are common and just part of the way in which warfare is carried out. We've had discussions on here before about the use of chevauchée style warfare in Westeros