Historical Parallels: Could Tommen and Myrcella mirror Edward VI and Lady Jane Grey?

[King of Winters]

I was thinking about the similarities of ASOIAF and The War of the Roses and I thought about after that and any similarities between the two afterwards. And I thought, could Edward VI (son of Henry VIII) and Lady Jane Grey tell us what happens to Tommen and Myrcella?

Edward VI came to the throne at just 9 years old and had a "protector" to rule for him. 6 years later he becomes I'll with a bad fever and later that year dies.

Lady Jane Grey, who's Edward's cousin, was put on the throne by the Duke of Norththumberland and was put on the throne to stop Mary I getting the throne. She only ruled for 9 days as Mary raised an army and took the throne from Jane an had her executed.

Could this tell a bit about how Tommen and Myrcella will die? Tommen could catch a fever, or maybe poisoned by Varys, and then later die, making Myrcella Queen of Westeros. But is Queen for a short time as Dany could arrive in Westeros and be Mary here and see that Dorne crowned Myrcella Queen and go and kill her and maybe burn Sunspear. This would probably be before Dorne declares for (F)Aegon, so this could quicken their support for (F)Aegon.

[King of Winters]

Another one of my popular threads :P

[The King Of Limbs]

I'm pretty sure Dany would never kill a child in cold blood though. Seems out of character for her to do.

[King of Winters]

I'm pretty sure Dany would never kill a child in cold blood though. Seems out of character for her to do.

Not personally kills her but burn her while she's inside Sunspear, with everyone else, because Dorne doesn't support her. Maybe it's only until after she burns Sunspear when she realises Myrcella was in there.

[Broken Fox]

Old Dany wouldn't kill them. Post ADWD Dany I think would. She's shed a lot of her naive idealism.

[mrunderhill]

I'm pretty sure Dany would never kill a child in cold blood though. Seems out of character for her to do.

Dany ordered the death of every boy, who looked over 12. They are considered children by Westeros standards and this is not taking into account the kids, who looked older than they were. She has become even more ruthless as the story progresses.

Anyway Mary I was had the best claim to the throne, then Elizabeth I and the Mary Queen of Scots. Putting Lady Jane Grey on the throne was a foolish idea. Tommen naming Myrcella as his heir is no where near as controversial, because by most laws she is his heir.

[Tenshi]

The story fits quite well what I expect will happen. Only: Jane was betrayed by the "small council", what I read from it. Now just think for a moment: when Tommen dies, what happens? Myrcella is on her way back, if I understand it right; Cersei will crown her. Sidenote, she's not the heir, Stannis is, and arguably after that, Aegon. Women come after men in the succession line.

Meanwhile with that move, Tyrell would be put off-side. They might demand a marriage between Willas and Myrcella, which will surely be refused. At that point the Tyrell council will most likely stage a coup and pronounce Margaery as the new queen, unless they side with Aegon (which'd be the closest mirror). Then again, the original dealt with queens, so Marge is probably a better mirror.

But there too I think they'll demand a Marge-Aegon marriage. Aegon might refuse due to Dany... or he might accept, thus making a dance of the dragons II hard to avoid. Still, my hunch is that Tyrell will prefer grabbing power for themselves.

To further the "mirror": the Tyrells might only take her (and Trystane?) captive. Sooner or later Cersei tries to grab power again, and as a result, Myrcella and Trystane are killed by the Tyrells. This'd give Jaime all the more reason to kill Cersei, who he considers responsible, while giving Doran an additional reason to side with Aegon against the Tyrells.

Edit: Doran said that he heard whispers of a plot to kill Trystane on the way to KL, for which the imp would be blamed. The obvious suspect would be the Tyrells: Cersei would never allow such a plot, and she genuinely believes Tyrion to be plotting this, so she'd buy that story in a heartbeat. The Tyrells are also the ones to gain from it: they surely know that Myrcella is queen by Dornish standards, and they'd really dislike a Dornish royal consort. That is assuming they don't plan to kill Tommen anyway. Of course Varys is also a suspect, but he probably wouldn't let those plans leak. Likewise for Littlefinger. As put earlier, the Tyrells still have a son to marry off, so in all ways, they stand to benefit from such a deal.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Edit: Doran said that he heard whispers of a plot to kill Trystane on the way to KL, for which the imp would be blamed. The obvious suspect would be the Tyrells: Cersei would never allow such a plot, and she genuinely believes Tyrion to be plotting this, so she'd buy that story in a heartbeat. The Tyrells are also the ones to gain from it: they surely know that Myrcella is queen by Dornish standards, and they'd really dislike a Dornish royal consort. That is assuming they don't plan to kill Tommen anyway. Of course Varys is also a suspect, but he probably wouldn't let those plans leak. Likewise for Littlefinger. As put earlier, the Tyrells still have a son to marry off, so in all ways, they stand to benefit from such a deal.

Cersei is the one to plot the murder of Trystane. Remember the "Ser Balon Swann had an additional duty, one best kept secret"?

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

The Myrcella/LJG comparison is a good one.

If things get desperate, the Lannisters may (if Dorne will let them) drag Myrcella back from the Water Gardens in order to keep the regime going.

[King of Winters]

If things get desperate, the Lannisters may (if Dorne will let them) drag Myrcella back from the Water Gardens in order to keep the regime going.

That could kind of mirror Cersei being Lord Dudley (Edward's protector) and wanting Myrcella close but then ends up being killed by Dany in KL and then Cersei goes mad and tries to burn KL, then that's when Jaime steps in.

[Tenshi]

Cersei is the one to plot the murder of Trystane. Remember the "Ser Balon Swann had an additional duty, one best kept secret"?

Sounds somewhat familiar, but I can't seem to find it. Happen to have the chapter/occasion at hand?

It seems rather strange for Cersei considering Doran claiming the Imp will be blamed. Cersei is genuinely paranoid about him, she wouldn't make up more stories about him I'd think...

Edit: found it, AFFC Cersei chapter. She says his duty is to bring Gregor's head. Another task is left unsaid - which'd logically be to bring Myrcella home (which of course is what she wants). Killing Trystane'd be a third. It'd make sense if she sent Swann after hearing about Myrcella, but afaik she only hears about that when she's imprisoned.

[mrunderhill]

Sounds somewhat familiar, but I can't seem to find it. Happen to have the chapter/occasion at hand?

It seems rather strange for Cersei considering Doran claiming the Imp will be blamed. Cersei is genuinely paranoid about him, she wouldn't make up more stories about him I'd think...

Cersei is wildly irrational and usually drunk. One minute she is claiming the Dornish are dangerous and not to be trusted the next she is sending for a Dornish Master-at-arms. Cersei certainly was involved in the plans.

As for the topic, Myrcella IS Tommen's natural heir, by virtually all laws of Westeros. Jane Grey was not even close to being Edward VI's heir. A better scenario would be Robb naming his distant relatives at the Vale as his heir and then Sansa coming with an army to throw them out.

[King of Winters]

As for the topic, Myrcella IS Tommen's natural heir, by virtually all laws of Westeros. Jane Grey was not even close to being Edward VI's heir. A better scenario would be Robb naming his distant relatives at the Vale as his heir and then Sansa coming with an army to throw them out.

Jane Grey was something like Edward's second or first cousin so she was in line, but the only reason she was out on the throne was to stop Mary taking it and making England Catholic again. I'm saying that Cersei would want to put Myrcella on throne quickly because of all the contenders to the throne, such as (F)Aegon and Dany, who has just landed in Westeros. Because she might think, in her paranoia, making her Queen would stop them.

[mrunderhill]

Jane Grey was something like Edward's second or first cousin so she was in line, but the only reason she was out on the throne was to stop Mary taking it and making England Catholic again. I'm saying that Cersei would want to put Myrcella on throne quickly because of all the contenders to the throne, such as (F)Aegon and Dany, who has just landed in Westeros. Because she might think, in her paranoia, making her Queen would stop them.

She was his first cousin once removed, but still not that close to the throne. Yes Henry VIII had constantly messed about with the order, but Mary, Elizabeth and the other descedants of Margaret Queen of Scots. She had a very weak claim to the throne apart from Edward VI making her his heir. This is not the case with Myrcella, who is Tommen's heir. Yes they are other claimants to the throne, but they are contesting it on the basis of Tommen not being a rightful king. This was not the case with Lady Jane Grey.

[King of Winters]

She was his first cousin once removed, but still not that close to the throne. Yes Henry VIII had constantly messed about with the order, but Mary, Elizabeth and the other descedants of Margaret Queen of Scots. She had a very weak claim to the throne apart from Edward VI making her his heir. This is not the case with Myrcella, who is Tommen's heir. Yes they are other claimants to the throne, but they are contesting it on the basis of Tommen not being a rightful king. This was not the case with Lady Jane Grey.

Well Dudley suggested to Edward to make her Queen to stop Mary becoming Queen because if she did then he'd get killed.

In a way her claim was the best when Edward named her his heir. And Cersei making her Queen quickly could also be out of fear that Stannis would get supporters as Myrcella would be the first proper Queen of Westeros and Cersei may think that people would betray her and turn to Stannis as the rightful Baratheon heir.

[mrunderhill]

Well Dudley suggested to Edward to make her Queen to stop Mary becoming Queen because if she did then he'd get killed.

In a way her claim was the best when Edward named her his heir. And Cersei making her Queen quickly could also be out of fear that Stannis would get supporters as Myrcella would be the first proper Queen of Westeros and Cersei may think that people would betray her and turn to Stannis as the rightful Baratheon heir.

No. A King cannot go about doing what he wants and naming, who he wants as heir. If he does that he is working against his own claim to power. In the end the succession went the way it was supposed to go, Mary then Elizabeth and then James.

Cersei making Myrcella Queen would be the legal thing to do. Once Tommen dies she is the new Queen. There is a possibility that people would reject a Queen, but once again it is not the same situation. Edward tried to completely go against all accepted laws of succession and it failed. Cersei at worst would be crowning one of two very disputed claims to the throne.

[King of Winters]

Cersei making Myrcella Queen would be the legal thing to do. Once Tommen dies she is the new Queen. There is a possibility that people would reject a Queen, but once again it is not the same situation. Edward tried to completely go against all accepted laws of succession and it failed. Cersei at worst would be crowning one of two very disputed claims to the throne.

Which could mirror what Edward did with Jane Grey.

[mrunderhill]

Which could mirror what Edward did with Jane Grey.

I will repeat it again. Jane had no right to the throne unless you planned to disinherit half of Edward's family for no real reason, especially considering Henry VIII had eventually put them all back in. Edward randomly named one of his relatives as his heir. It would be as crazy if Robert randomly tried name a distant cousin as his heir over Stannis and Renly. people are NOT going to accept that.

The situation it mirrors is that of Robb. It is the same as if Robb named those Vale relatives as his heir.

Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . . "

If Sansa were to come up North then, who do you think the Northeners would pick?

[King of Winters]

I will repeat it again. Jane had no right to the throne unless you planned to disinherit half of Edward's family for no real reason, especially considering Henry VIII had eventually put them all back in. Edward randomly named one of his relatives as his heir. It would be as crazy if Robert randomly tried name a distant cousin as his heir over Stannis and Renly. people are NOT going to accept that.

The situation it mirrors is that of Robb. It is the same as if Robb named those Vale relatives as his heir.

Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . . "

If Sansa were to come up North then, who do you think the Northeners would pick?

Ok. All I'm saying is that with what happened with Edward and Jane, it could give us some kind of idea as to how Tommen and Myrcella will die. I'm not saying it will happen exactly as it did with Ed and Jane but there could be some similarities to their deaths.

[mrunderhill]

Ok. All I'm saying is that with what happened with Edward and Jane, it could give us some kind of idea as to how Tommen and Myrcella will die. I'm not saying it will happen exactly as it did with Ed and Jane but there could be some similarities to their deaths.

Ok fair enough. Tommen could very well die with an illness and then Dany or Aegon could return to finish of Myrcella.