Qhorin Halfhand is Ser Arthur Dayne

[DreamEater53]

WHY DOES EVERYONE HAVE A SECRET IDENTITY!? Can't Qhorin Halfhand just be Qhorin Halfhand, an awesome ranger of the Nights Watch? What is so wrong with that?

[profilebegone]

WHY DOES EVERYONE HAVE A SECRET IDENTITY!? Can't Qhorin Halfhand just be Qhorin Halfhand, an awesome ranger of the Nights Watch? What is so wrong with that?

What's wrong with that is that it's obviously too simple and totally fails to account for the vast Blackfyre/polywarg conspiracy.

[DreamEater53]

What's wrong with that is that it's obviously too simple and totally fails to account for the vast Blackfyre/polywarg conspiracy.

So what you're telling me is that Qhorin warged into Ghost before he died? :cool4:

[MRHD]

Darn, when I clicked on this topic I was expecting it to be another brilliant yarn by MaesterHodor. :(

[profilebegone]

Darn, when I clicked on this topic I was expecting to be another brilliant yarn by MasterHodor. :(

Don't worry! He must be cooking up something. My guess: Jorah Mormont is Dany's father!

[profilebegone]

So what you're telling me is that Qhorin warged into Ghost before he died? :cool4:

No no no - he warged into Ygritte. Why do you think she keeps defending Jon Snow? If Qhorin warged into Ygritte, her rapid loyalty and support for Jon makes sense. Having sex with him seems like a random thing for Qhorin to do but if he is as hot as he sounds and Qhorin wants to earn his trust why not? I definitely would in his situation.

[WhiteWalder]

Darn, when I clicked on this topic I was expecting to be another brilliant yarn by MaesterHodor. :(

I'm glad I'm not the only one wanting more MaesterHodor posts.

[profilebegone]

Darn, when I clicked on this topic I was expecting it to be another brilliant yarn by MaesterHodor. :(

I'm glad I'm not the only one wanting more MaesterHodor posts.

I'm glad I'm not the only one wanting more MaesterHodor posts.

Should we start a Kickstarter?

[DreamEater53]

No no no - he warged into Ygritte. Why do you think she keeps defending Jon Snow? If Qhorin warged into Ygritte, her rapid loyalty and support for Jon makes sense. Having sex with him seems like a random thing for Qhorin to do but if he is as hot as he sounds and Qhorin wants to earn his trust why not? I definitely would in his situation.

Of course! Now it all makes sense. But you've forgotten one thing... how does Hodor fit into all of this? A theory isn't complete without Hodor...

[profilebegone]

Of course! Now it all makes sense. But you've forgotten one thing... how does Hodor fit into all of this? A theory isn't complete without Hodor...

Hodor is Daario.

[DreamEater53]

Hodor is Daario.

:shocked: :laugh:

[LitaJ]

Hodor is Daario.

I thought Dayne was Daario and Qhorin!

But seriously, some very good points for Arthur to be alive, but I do believe he died, GRRM likes to have some mythology in his world, so the death of the greatest knight would be something plausible. We might know once we finally get Reed and he thinks about the ToJ. But if he is alive and his sister is alive as some claim, why would they separate themselves from each other by having Arthur at the Wall?

True, there he would be keeping many of his vows made in the KG, but we already have Jon C coming back from the dead from that team so hoping for more might be too greedy. I don't recall if Qhorin's swordplay was ever commented on.

Most importantly, Benjen was at the Tourney at Harrenhal, with the entirety of the Royal Family in attendance, and with his Sister there Ser Dayne would most certainly be at the event and a as known Great Knight I doubt anyone would overlooked him, so Benjen would have recognized him at the wall.

Not to mention, if some say that Benjen went to the Wall because he knew and felt guilty of the role he played in aiding Rhaegar, Arthur and Oswell get Lyanna I very much doubt he would have forgotten it.

[Greywolf2375]

That said, I'm not convinced Dayne did survive the ToJ or that he was Qhorin Halfhand. But I don't think the theory is crackpot either.

It's completely crackpot - this is another example of making things fit to a pet theory rather than information supporting a theory. Why would there be any reason for Dayne to come to an agreement with Ned - he would be breaking both his Kingsguard vows as well as the Sword of the Morning. This is the Kingsguard that does not kneel, not the current one.

[The Duke]

That would require making Ned an unreliable narrator since he revealed only he and Howland Reed survived the tower of joy fight.

[three-eyed monkey]

It's completely crackpot - this is another example of making things fit to a pet theory rather than information supporting a theory. Why would there be any reason for Dayne to come to an agreement with Ned - he would be breaking both his Kingsguard vows as well as the Sword of the Morning. This is the Kingsguard that does not kneel, not the current one.

It is possible to contemplate and examine a proposition without believing it. As I said in the line you quoted, I'm not convinced he did survive the ToJ or that he was QH, I'm simply playing devil's advocate and pointing out that Dayne's death is not confirmed as canon anywhere in the text. Not a single person on this forum can say how the mortal blow was struck? Until we know for sure, the possibility that there was no mortal blow simply has to remain an option, however far-fetched.

[profilebegone]

It's completely crackpot - this is another example of making things fit to a pet theory rather than information supporting a theory. Why would there be any reason for Dayne to come to an agreement with Ned - he would be breaking both his Kingsguard vows as well as the Sword of the Morning. This is the Kingsguard that does not kneel, not the current one.

It is possible to contemplate and examine a proposition without believing it. As I said in the line you quoted, I'm not convinced he did survive the ToJ or that he was QH, I'm simply playing devil's advocate and pointing out that Dayne's death is not confirmed as canon anywhere in the text. Not a single person on this forum can say how the mortal blow was struck? Until we know for sure, the possibility that there was no mortal blow simply has to remain an option, however far-fetched.

I think it's borderline-but-not-entirely nutty to suggest Arthur Dayne could still be alive, since there's just not a lot of information there. But it is totally crackpot to suggest a living legend on the Wall was actually Arthur Dayne and nobody recognized him. Jeor Mormont? Donal Noye? Jaremy Rykker? Ben Stark? Or they were all in on it? To what end? Shoot, if Arthur Dayne wanted to take the black, he could've just taken the black. Lucamore Strong did it. So there's not any angle, heft, or purpose to this particular scheme.

Plus, if he was Arthur Dayne, him + Jon + Ghost could probably have taken out all those wildlings, right?

[I Am TheSongOf IceAndFire]

based on the OPs many facts and the past year i have spent putting this all together, i think we have a winner here. qhorins missing half hand is actually Dawn. thats what Ned brought back to lady ashara. arya then warged into lady ashara for some ned-love, before realizing that she just porked her father. so she then threw herself off that bridge, therefore becoming Balon Greyjoy. which means, ghost is actually jons father! hotpie and Lem will then sit the iron throne. on the Fingers. sorry george, but i just wrote your last two books.

edit: thank you for pointing it out Squarely Rooted. Aegon is a blackfyre, however he is also a blackwood. and hot pie has indeed been confirmed to be nothing more than a hot pie. who is working with the waif to steal all lemons and tarts from the kingdom

[profilebegone]

based on the OPs many facts and the past year i have spent putting this all together, i think we have a winner here. qhorins missing half hand is actually Dawn. thats what Ned brought back to lady ashara. arya then warged into lady ashara for some ned-love, before realizing that she just porked her father. so she then threw herself off that bridge, therefore becoming Balon Greyjoy. which means, ghost is actually jons father! hotpie and Lem will then sit the iron throne. on the Fingers. sorry george, but i just wrote your last two books.

Dude you forgot that everyone is a secret Targ except Aegon who is a Blackfyre and Hot Pie who is a Hot Pie. And a Faceless Man.

[three-eyed monkey]

I don't think it’s borderline nutty to observe that Dayne's death at the ToJ is inferred but not confirmed in the text. My suspicions arise primarily from the use of what I consider to be ambiguous language in the relevant passages. I, for one, would prefer if Dayne simply died at the ToJ because we’ve had enough back-from-the-dead characters already in my opinion. However, I would still rather examine the OP’s question than just laugh at it, so if that qualifies as crackpot, then I guess it’s lucky for me that I have my own tinfoil helmet.

Some members made good points and objections about Dayne going to the Wall, which are far more convincing and constructive than some of the attempts at wit posted above. So let’s consider, for the sake of debate or crackpottery or whatever you want to call it, a hypothetical deal between Ned and Dayne.

For any deal to have been struck there would have to be common ground between both parties. As Jon is the son of Dayne’s best friend and Ned’s sister then I think there is room for discussion here. I think it’s plausible that Ned had enough respect for the man to at least entertain a discussion.

Dayne’s other options are quiet limited, because even if he kills Ned and Howland he becomes a knight on the run with an infant he considers to be king or perhaps the ptwp, depending on whether he shares Rhaegar’s views about prophecy or not. Whatever he believes and wherever he goes, Robert’s wrath would surely follow. Dayne and Jon might well escape but the people he holds dear would suffer. Robert could raze Starfall to the ground on the mere suspicion that Dayne was hiding there. Dayne might seek the shelter of Dorne, but could he be sure how Prince Doran would react to harbouring his sister’s husband’s adulterously conceived bastard?

Dayne might just ask Robert if he could take the black, but considering his place as Rhaegar’s best-friend and his connection to the events surrounding the death of Lyanna, he might well consider this a path to be taken at great risk.

Or Dayne might strike a deal with Jon’s uncle Ned, a character of honourable repute, to raise the child in Winterfell while he fakes his death, thus throwing Robert off the scent, and takes the black voluntarily at the less-populous Shadow Tower. This way he might still, in some way, uphold his vow to protect the king’s realm, and at the same time turn his eye on the real enemy, the enemy of Rhaegar’s prophesised war.

And while every man at the Wall heard of Dayne, just as they no doubt heard of his demise, his big problem would be running into people who have met him before, or at least seen him at a relatively close distance with their own eyes. Ser Jaremy Rykker probably did know Ser Arthur, but would he, or any other former-loyalist, blow the whistle on Dayne? Benjen would have seen Dayne at Harrenhal, but in the event of this hypothetical deal then Ned might be forced to give his brother the head’s up before he took the black, in which case we might expect Benjen to keep the secret. And I honestly don’t know if Jeor Mormont or Donal Noye ever met Dayne??? The LC at the Wall at the time, Qorgyle, was Dornish, so maybe sympathetic to Dayne?

But people recognising him would certainly be a huge strike against this theory, granted. Whether, by way of loyalty or respect, those few that did recognise him were content to leave him go on as Qhorin is another matter. Perhaps they were just glad to have him at their side? Or perhaps they just reckoned as the Night’s Watch takes no part, he was no longer a Dayne, but just a sworn brother? Who knows? It’s all speculation, just like the manner of his death, but I don’t think it’s beyond the realm of possibility. Like I said, Barristan re-entered King’s Landing and Jaime crossed the Riverlands with Brienne largely unrecognised, despite their widespread fame.

Speaking of Jaime (the boy who wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne), another curious point of note is the fact that it is Qhorin’s own story that foreshadows Jaime’s efforts to learn to fight with his left hand.

And, as someone who thinks GRRM is a master of hiding subtle hints in the text, I just can’t resist adding this from ASoS, as Jon observes the stars:

... he [Jon] was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte, but not some of the others. We look up at the same stars, and see such different things.

Further crackpottery:

Ice Dragon = Aemon.

Shadowcat = Arya.

Moonmaid = Ygritte.

Sword of the Morning = Qhorin Halfhand.

In the absence of an actual theory from the Op, I make this case for the purpose of debate, like I might make a case for Jaime and Cersei being Targs, despite being far from convinced that they are, and hoping that they’re not.

[Greywolf2375]

For any deal to have been struck there would have to be common ground between both parties. As Jon is the son of Dayne’s best friend and Ned’s sister then I think there is room for discussion here. I think it’s plausible that Ned had enough respect for the man to at least entertain a discussion.

This however causes you to bypass what we know about that Kingsguard - they follow orders, they do not make judgements. Based on what we are told, the KG waited outside the room while Aerys was raping someone and did nothing about it. The three KG - for whatever reason - were there to protect and keep people away. Dayne is not about to go into negotiations with the usurpers 2nd in command because it is not his place to do so.