Westerosi succession laws

[Ramsay the Bastard]

Alright so I know that westeros more or less runs on a system of primogeniture but how different are the successions laws per county/kingdom

I know that the Targaryens instituted a pretty intense succession law after the dance of dragons that means females can only inherit if there are no eligable males of the dynasty. (technically robert had a stronger claim than daenerys) which is different to most systems where the female child inherits after the male bit is still higher in succession because they are a child of the king/lorrd.

I also know that Dorne is differentin the respect that females inherit on the exact same conditions as males.

However what is for the rest of westeros, did they adopt the same policy as the targaryens and the reason why dorne have a different law is because they weren't subjucated by the targs at that time?

Or is it specific per region (could cersei be the heir to casterly rock?)

[Knight Of Winter]

I know that the Targaryens instituted a pretty intense succession law after the dance of dragons that means females can only inherit if there are no eligable males of the dynasty. (technically robert had a stronger claim than daenerys) which is different to most systems where the female child inherits after the male bit is still higher in succession because they are a child of the king/lorrd.

This is not confirmed and has been subject of many debates.

Anyhow, most of Westeros has been following established rules of succession for millennia, of arrival of the Targs has not changed them. So, lord's eldest son interhits, behind him come younger sons and than daughters. If man has no progeny, his oldest living brother interhits with his children next in line of succession. Following that long-established logic, Cersei is indeed heir Lady of Casterly Rock now that Tywin is dead.

Dorne has different rules, namely equal primogeniture, mainly because of Rhyonar influences. When Targs finally incorporated Dorne into Seven Kingdoms, they agreed that Dorne's rules of succession will be preserved in Dorne, unlike the rest of Westeros.

[WinterKing]

The most common rule is Primogeniture, with male preference.But a daughter is more advanced than a uncle in the succession line.

[WhiteOwl18]

From what I can see, we have three types of succession in Westeros:

Male Primogeniture

The oldest son comes first, then his sons (in order of birth) and then his daughters. The second son comes after and then his descendants. After all the sons, come the daughters and their descendants. If there are no children, then siblings inherit, first the brothers and their descendants and then the sisters and their descendants. This seems to be the type of succession applied to most houses.

Absolute Primogeniture

The oldest child inherits, regardless of gender. The oldest child's descendants come after and so forth. This is the type of succession we see in Dorne. Take the Martells: Arianne inherits ahead of her brothers, Quentyn and Trystane.

Agnatic Succession (Also called Semi-Salic Law)

Females and their descendants only inherit if there are no males through the male line. In the case of the Targaryens (who seem to be the only family to have this type of succession), it is unclear if female-line males take precedence over male-line females. For example: would Robert and his brothers (female-line males) come before Daenerys (a male-line female)? [For the record, I am not discussing if the Baratheons should or should not be sitting on the throne, I am just discussing what would happen in Targaryen succession].

[blood of the dragoon]

I just got schooled on this issue in a thread i created the other day.

The answer is that the succession laws are murky and there's conflicting precedents.

It REALLY gets fun when bastards are legitimized.

[protar]

I don't think that any Baratheon's would come before Dany in the line of succession. It's male Targaryens who come first, not males from other families simply related to the Targaryens. As I understand it the Targ line of succession at the start of Robert's Rebellion would have been:

• Aerys
  
• Rhaegar
  
• Aegon
  
• Viserys
  
• Rhaenys
  
• Daenerys
  
• Rhaella
  
• Robert
  
• Stannis
  
• Renly
  

So the heir and all of his sons come first. Then any of the heir's brothers, his nephews, then uncles, then the heir's daughters, nieces, then his sisters, and then his aunts. And then descendants through the female line, presumably also using Agnatic succession.

[WhiteOwl18]

I don't think that any Baratheon's would come before Dany in the line of succession. It's male Targaryens who come first, not males from other families simply related to the Targaryens. As I understand it the Targ line of succession at the start of Robert's Rebellion would have been:

• Aerys
  
• Rhaegar
  
• Aegon
  
• Viserys
  
• Rhaenys
  
• Daenerys
  
• Rhaella
  
• Robert
  
• Stannis
  
• Renly
  

So the heir and all of his sons come first. Then any of the heir's brothers, his nephews, then uncles, then the heir's daughters, nieces, then his sisters, and then his aunts. And then descendants through the female line, presumably also using Agnatic succession.

And at the beginning of AGOT it would be:

- Viserys

- Daenerys

- Robert

- Stannis

- Renly

- Shireen

That's my interpretation too, but there are those who think that all males (through male and female line) come before all females. And the books don't make it very clear. I would love it if GRRM clarified this.

[blood of the dragoon]

And at the beginning of AGOT it would be:

- Viserys

- Daenerys

- Robert

- Stannis

- Renly

- Shireen

That's my interpretation too, but there are those who think that all males (through male and female line) come before all females. And the books don't make it very clear. I would love it if GRRM clarified this.

As much as i like cut and dry answers, there is not one here.

[mrunderhill]

And at the beginning of AGOT it would be:

- Viserys

- Daenerys

- Robert

- Stannis

- Renly

- Shireen

That's my interpretation too, but there are those who think that all males (through male and female line) come before all females. And the books don't make it very clear. I would love it if GRRM clarified this.

There is a report that apparently Martin said that women cannot inherit the throne. This would mean that the line of succession at the time of the rebellion was:

Rhaegar

Aegon

Viserys

Robert

[joluoto]

Common succession law: Primogeniture with male preference. Daughters inherit if there's no son. Breeches and modifications of the law exist.

Dornish succession law: Primogeniture without gendere preference. Oldest child inherit.

Targaryen succession law (not used anymore): Agnatic Primogeniture: All males goes before all females in the succession.

[profilebegone]

From what I can see, we have three types of succession in Westeros:

Male Primogeniture

The oldest son comes first, then his sons (in order of birth) and then his daughters. The second son comes after and then his descendants. After all the sons, come the daughters and their descendants. If there are no children, then siblings inherit, first the brothers and their descendants and then the sisters and their descendants. This seems to be the type of succession applied to most houses.

Absolute Primogeniture

The oldest child inherits, regardless of gender. The oldest child's descendants come after and so forth. This is the type of succession we see in Dorne. Take the Martells: Arianne inherits ahead of her brothers, Quentyn and Trystane.

Agnatic Succession (Also called Semi-Salic Law)

Females and their descendants only inherit if there are no males through the male line. In the case of the Targaryens (who seem to be the only family to have this type of succession), it is unclear if female-line males take precedence over male-line females. For example: would Robert and his brothers (female-line males) come before Daenerys (a male-line female)? [For the record, I am not discussing if the Baratheons should or should not be sitting on the throne, I am just discussing what would happen in Targaryen succession].

I just got schooled on this issue in a thread i created the other day.

The answer is that the succession laws are murky and there's conflicting precedents.

It REALLY gets fun when bastards are legitimized.

As much as i like cut and dry answers, there is not one here.

Yep, the key to this is twofold:

1) Different parts of Westeros use different laws, and that's regardless of whatever larger political unit they swear to - see Bear Island, for example.

2) All of these laws are murky, unwritten, and subject to interpretation and conflict, and unless there is either a clear successor or a meta-consensus on how to proceed (like the Great Council that installed Aegon V) then you're probably going to get some bloodshed.

[protar]

There is a report that apparently Martin said that women cannot inherit the throne. This would mean that the line of succession at the time of the rebellion was:

Rhaegar

Aegon

Viserys

Robert

Do we have a source for that. It seems rather unlikely to me that the Targaryens, so obsessed with blood purity would allow another house to inherit the throne after a female of their own house. But I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if there's an SSM for it.

[mrunderhill]

Do we have a source for that. It seems rather unlikely to me that the Targaryens, so obsessed with blood purity would allow another house to inherit the throne after a female of their own house. But I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if there's an SSM for it.

There is, but I cannot provide it at the moment, will do later. It is not an SSM, but a report from what George was supposed to have said. It is on the Citadel. It claims that women could not inherit.

The Targaryens practise on incest usually meant that there were few other heirs outside the Targaryen line. About from the Dornish, we don't have many examples of Targaryen princess marrying outside the family. Aegon V's mistake was letting his children marry for love, without disinheriting the line.

[joluoto]

Do we have a source for that. It seems rather unlikely to me that the Targaryens, so obsessed with blood purity would allow another house to inherit the throne after a female of their own house. But I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if there's an SSM for it.

We don't know exactly how the Targaryen laws worked in practice, but people are citing George that all males goes before the females. That would mean Dany doesn't have a claim on the throne according to this law, since at least the Baratheon males and the Martell males comes before her, as well as any other house Targ princesses has married into. However discussing this law is rather pointless, since no one is using it anymore.

[OuterZan]

What if Dany becomes a queen of westeros (not going to happen), and weds Jaime (not going to happen either)? Would their children be Lannisters or Targaryens?

[joluoto]

What if Dany becomes a queen of westeros (not going to happen), and weds Jaime (not going to happen either)? Would their children be Lannisters or Targaryens?

Lannisters, unless a some kind of special arrangement is made.

[mrunderhill]

What if Dany becomes a queen of westeros (not going to happen), and weds Jaime (not going to happen either)? Would their children be Lannisters or Targaryens?

Things like this depend on, which family was more powerful. For instance the Windsors all take the name of Queen Elizabeth if they are royal, but in the Middle Ages it seems that they would take the father's name and be Lannisters. Henry II was a Plantagenet, but he did inherit vast lands, through his father too. In Westeros though, if they were ruling as Targaryens they might take the Targaryen name.

[Tywin Manderly]

We don't know exactly how the Targaryen laws worked in practice, but people are citing George that all males goes before the females. That would mean Dany doesn't have a claim on the throne according to this law, since at least the Baratheon males and the Martell males comes before her, as well as any other house Targ princesses has married into.

Targaryen males would go before Targaryen females and people related to the Targaryens but not a member of House Targaryen would have no rights to succession to the Iron Throne.

However discussing this law is rather pointless, since no one is using it anymore.

The remaining Targaryens still do.

[joluoto]

Targaryen males would go before Targaryen females and people related to the Targaryens but not a member of House Targaryen would have no rights to succession to the Iron Throne.

The remaining Targaryens still do.

George has been cited saying all males goes before females, and that would mean all males with Targaryen blood goes before any female. And no, the Targaryens are not using this law anymore, at least not Dany. She's claiming a throne she can't claim according to Targaryen law, so she's obviously not basing her claim on that law.

[protar]

The remaining Targaryens still do.

Dany is the only confirmed remaining Targaryen and I find it unlikely that she'll be continuing the tradition should she ever sit the Iron Throne.

EDIT: And I'm sorry but I'm just not buying that every single male who has any Targaryen descent would inherit before Dany. It seems fairly ridiculous to me that the Martells for example would inherit the throne before Dany - not to mention sons from any other house that the Martells have married into since marrying the first Daenerys.