Theory: Jon and Jaime, two characters, one story

[Wild _Rover]

Why do so many people think jon would be a dick his main virtues seem to be true honour and compassion. Hes also one of the few characters that doesnt the world in black and white but in shades of grey. As for Jaime he deserves everything thats comin to him

[Bunners]

Why do so many people think jon would be a dick his main virtues seem to be true honour and compassion. Hes also one of the few characters that doesnt the world in black and white but in shades of grey. As for Jaime he deserves everything thats comin to him

That might be true about Jaime. But on a human note most people don't relate to, I've done everything right my entire life and followed all the rules. Most people relate to I've made a lot of mistakes, many big mistakes, but I'm trying to get better, I'm trying to be a better person.

That's why I think many people favor Jaime over Jon. Plus Jon is an arrogant little prick sometimes. He's not outright prideful but more passive-aggressive I know so much better than you. I used to like Jon a lot but it's wayning in comparison to how much I like Jaime.

But the thing is opposite about them is that Jon has always had to prove himself, prove his worth, his strength, his loyalty, all. And he's always at heart been/had these things. Where as Jaime has never had to prove anything, his loyalty has always been assumed (whoops Aerys!), his strength not denied, his wealth and status endless. They are switching roles now. I think they will be able to teach eachother the finer points. Jon needs Jaime, he does to help him really form into a man, but Jaime also needs Jon. I think after Brienne's death he is going to need someone more than ever. And all these fatherly feelings, I think that he will need someone to pour them out on. Jaime will mentor Jon but moreover he will be his friend. They will be friends. Kinda like a Sirius Black/Harry Potter relationship but less affectionate

I can't flesh out the details but I do know that Jaime and Jon are going to have a key role together, Brienne the Beauty is going to meet her end somehow, and Jaime is going to take up her mantle. That I know

[Wild _Rover]

To me its not arrogance if your right and for the most part I think Jon has been right and has made some real tough decisions. The thing with people liking Jaime now I just dont understand he hasnt done anything but stab an old man in the back and tell someone else to find the stark girls. I also think when Jon is brought back to life hell be much darker and if he sees a Lannester hell cut them down without thinking twice about it.

[Bunners]

That's where your wrong. There is nothing wrong with being right, but it becomes wrong if you rub your rightness into people's faces. That's why Stannis is having such a trouble gaining support. And for all tenses and purposes Stannis is RIGHT. He does have a valid claim, and should get endless support but the reason that Stannis is having such trouble is he seems to think he is above compromise and working with people. And all human interaction in the world, in any world is compromise. Because no one is perfect. That's where Stannis and Jon have a bit of connection. They have similar flaws, Stannis more extreme than Jon.

Jon refusing to talk to anyone, refusing to be open with anyone. Thinking that this is him "maning up" like what Aemon told him to do, and there are benefits to what he's doing. But he's going about it the wrong way. All his decisions are good ones but it's the fact of him thinking he doesn't need anyone's help is alienating himself from his brothers, which gets him stabbed. He is RIGHT but who cares if your right of no one

Iikes you, then they won't listen to you anyways. Jon needs to stop being "Lord Snow" and just be Jon. That is his problem, which is ultimately pride and arrogance. He's right to worry about the watch and everything in between but he's wrong in trying to act as if he's above everyone. And he acts that way or appears that way because he is trying to kill the boy thus taking away all friendships and all ties which doesn't really get him anywhere except a grave with Julius Caesar. If he were to just be OPEN with someone about what he is talking about with Stannis and what he is think maybe everyone wouldn't want to stab him. But you only stop talking to people or telling them about your life when you somehow don't trust them or you think you are better than them.

And that is why I hope there is no undead Jon. I don't like the idea of him being different. I am more in favor of him getting injured and a fight errupting at the Wall which ultimately leads to it's own destruction and the Others crawling over it. During all the commotion Jon Snow is whisked away. By whom? Jaime maybe? Whose been hidding in the shadows? I dunno, but that's what I think.

And Jaime has been through a very strong transformation, no one can doubt that. I suggest you go back and read his chapters if you don't remember, he's so different,his hand being chopped signified all his past actions and mishaps leaving him and him being able to start a fresh. Everyone wants a second chance, that's why he's so popular

[Wild _Rover]

You're telling me to reread chapters and come up with this.

Jon needs to stop being "Lord Snow" and just be Jon. That is his problem, which is ultimately pride and arrogance. He's right to worry about the watch and everything in between but he's wrong in trying to act as if he's above everyone. And he acts that way or appears that way because he is trying to kill the boy thus taking away all friendships and all ties which doesn't really get him anywhere except a grave with Julius Caesar. If he were to just be OPEN with someone about what he is talking about with Stannis and what he is think maybe everyone wouldn't want to stab him. But you only stop talking to people or telling them about your life when you somehow don't trust them or you think you are better than them.

Hes a little busy dealing with wildlings, the Queens men, rebuilding forts along the wall before the upcoming war with the Others something noone has had to deal with in known time. thats not alienation or arrogance its being busy as LC.He has to keep things with Stannis a secret because he had enemys in the NW still loyal to the Lannister or could be bought by them. I really dont see how he thinks hes better then everyone if anything he wishes to be one of the guys again but he cant.

He is RIGHT but who cares if your right of no one Iikes you, then they won't listen to you anyways

This one had to have been a joke. Do you know who raised him? He does the right thing cause its the right thing to do like Eddard taught him.

During all the commotion Jon Snow is whisked away. By whom? Jaime maybe? Whose been hidding in the shadows? I dunno, but that's what I think.

Another laugh-er but if that's truly what you think..... i just dont kno what to say

And Jaime has been through a very strong transformation, no one can doubt that. I suggest you go back and read his chapters if you don't remember, he's so different,his hand being chopped signified all his past actions and mishaps leaving him and him being able to start a fresh. Everyone wants a second chance, that's why he's so popular

Jaime has changed but getting ur hand chopped off clear him of all the shitty things hes done. Lets get real hes LC of the kingsgaurd with the king being his bastard son born in incest, so he hasn't gone through a strong enough transformation because if he had he would be fighting for Stannis or taking the black.

[The Mad Wolf]

Jaw drop. Awesome therory lol, love JL

[Bunners]

You're telling me to reread chapters and come up with this.

Hes a little busy dealing with wildlings, the Queens men, rebuilding forts along the wall before the upcoming war with the Others something noone has had to deal with in known time. thats not alienation or arrogance its being busy as LC.He has to keep things with Stannis a secret because he had enemys in the NW still loyal to the Lannister or could be bought by them. I really dont see how he thinks hes better then everyone if anything he wishes to be one of the guys again but he cant.

This one had to have been a joke. Do you know who raised him? He does the right thing cause its the right thing to do like Eddard taught him.

Another laugh-er but if that's truly what you think..... i just dont kno what to say

Jaime has changed but getting ur hand chopped off clear him of all the shitty things hes done. Lets get real hes LC of the kingsgaurd with the king being his bastard son born in incest, so he hasn't gone through a strong enough transformation because if he had he would be fighting for Stannis or taking the black.

Dude your missing the point. THAT IS HUMAN NATURE. If some guy came up to you this minute and told you that you were doing everything wrong and needed to do all these things and on top of it all came off doper condescendingyou can't tell me you be like "Oh, okay sure dude, thanks".

You would not

You'd be like "who the hell are you?" As most humans would.

My point is that Jon is dealing with all these things but he's dealing with them ALONE. The only people he seems to talk to are Sam, who is halfway round the world. Stannis who he's constantly turning down attempts the crown him and planning with him. Melissandre who is constantly warning him. And ghost. Those are his only "friends", his only advisors, his counsellors. Plans FAIL for lack of counsel.

No that's not true. He does not have to deal with it all alone. He can do something that all great leaders need learn. The beautiful thing that has saved many leaders in the past. It's a talent that can me learned and taught. Being able to DELEGATE.

This SIMPLE thing, takes the strain off your back and gives other people (the people that think your job is easy) the taste of leadership they want. It gives them a dose of reality that leadership is 10% of being in front of people and 90% behind the scenes. This automatically humbles power hungry people.Then you have something to talk about with that person. How things are going and progressing and ALSO someone to vent to when leadership gets hard, (and it does) because they understand.

But Jon doesn't know how to delegate thus he alienates himself from everyone. Thus making the people that simply don't agree into his enemies. Don't get me wrong Jon is a GREAT leader. But he fell into the pit that many young leaders fall in "I can do it alone" or "I have to do it alone". This will KILL your career in any branch of leadership, fiction or real. Not letting people in is PRIDE. Point blank. Not saying you need help is PRIDE. He could have picked people he trusted. He could have vented to people he trusted.

And are you kidding me? This is right in JON'S mind. What about in Janos's mind? Right according to who? this world doesn't revolve around Jon and his idea of right.

But it's completely true. No one cares if your right if you act like a dick. And he may not be "acting" like it but he doesn't have any friends, never talks about anything, never even vents about the stress of leadership. This leads people to think he's just a stupid arrogant kid. Who thinks he is above everyone. He's so anal he never calms down enough to have a drink. To relax a little. Which leads to people to mistrust him more. They already mistrust him because of his mission, he's young, he's a bastard and he a bastard of a known "traitor". Think if you were one of those people that had all these prejudices and on top of that this kid is constantly locked behind closed doors with Stannis. Never has a drink, never relaxes just a little. You would think he was a traitor too. He needs to take a cue from Margarey Tyrell and start kissing babies. He's not as bad as Cersei, he does not oppress, in fact he's an amazing leader and is really trying to help the NW, but he's not good with people. Him and Dany even could take notes from one another.

Look at the other people in power. Daenerys talks to Selmy, She seeks advice with him. Jon seeks advice with no one because he thinks he knows it all.

It's an open and closed case because well look at the end of ADWDs. HE GOT STABBED! By his supposed followers. And let me tell you something. It's ONLY leadership if you have people that will FOLLOW you. Otherwise what's the point?

Ahh man I must be talking to Jon Snow himself, your so stubborn man. Don't down Jaime's experience. You make it sound so light. "He just got his hand cut off, smh." Like your life wouldn't change if you got yours cut off. I stand by what I said. I think they have lots to teach one another. But Jaime is way more human than Jon, or so it appears. We'll see what the rest of Jaime's transformation is. It may well be. and I dunno, it's just what my mind would wish to happen. But that's what I think. I still think Jon is a great leader, he just has to work on his people skills. I think Jaime will have lots to teach him. And I think Jon will have lots to teach Jaime. I still think Jon still should be on the throne, and I still think that Jaime will side with Jon Targ. I just think they have some things they need to work on. That's all, that's okay.

A word of advice to you: You seem to have no grace on people. If they don't get it right the first time it sounds like you think they are a waste of space in the universe. This is what I think and only what I think but maybe having a bit of grace on people would go a long way. People mess up all the time. Everyone, everyday, 24/7, 365. Make horrible decisions, fall on their faces and get up again. A word of caution, if you expect everyone to be perfect all the time I promise you are going to be sorely disappointed. I just say that cause I see how you view characters in fiction who have made mistakes, I can't imagine real people.