Theory: Jon and Jaime, two characters, one story

[Morienthar]

It's a rule of thumb to not use other theories in order to make your own theories, because it just makes your theory seem all the more unreliable.

Then we'd have no theories at all....

To the OP...

Good observations.

But the Predictions are too wishful for me,But to each his own.

[Nephenee]

Then we'd have no theories at all....

To the OP...

Good observations.

But the Predictions are too wishful for me,But to each his own.

R+L=J relies on no other theories at all, and neither does GNC. Or theories on the Hound's death.

It's always a bad idea to rely on other theories to make theories. It's poor reasoning because you're relying on other unproven stuff to support your own unproven theory.

[Morienthar]

R+L=J relies on no other theories at all, and neither does GNC. Or theories on the Hound's death.

It's always a bad idea to rely on other theories to make theories. It's poor reasoning because you're relying on other unproven stuff to support your own unproven theory.

R+L=J and GNC aren't a single theory at all.There's a single assumption around which 100's of theories are built.

[Nephenee]

R+L=J and GNC aren't a single theory at all.There's a single assumption around which 100's of theories are built.

I don't want to go off topic, so this is my final post, but it's incredibly obvious that at least R+L=J is indeed a single theory (they don't rely on other theories to make their point). All it has are some pieces of evidence in its favor:

Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared together to the Tower of Joy early in Robert's Rebellion. There, it's believed, Rhaegar leaves a pregnant Lyanna to defend his family's dynasty.

The only known survivors of the fight were Eddard himself and Howland Reed. Eddard recalls his sister dying "in a bed of blood," where he made her an unknown promise just before she died.

Also, while Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon are said to have Tully features (hair color, eyes), Jon and Arya are said to be closer in appearance (which had made Sansa believe Arya was also a bastard like Jon, until her mother put Sansa's theory down). Arya is said to resemble Lyanna.

Further evidence to the truth of this theory in the eighth Eddard chapter of A Game of Thrones, in which Ned contemplates the significance of King Robert's bastards. As he muses, Ned's thoughts drift to Jon Snow, a logical segue, but also to his sister Lyanna, the promise he made her, and to Rhaegar Targaryen, implying some tacit link between the three individuals.

Daenerys Targaryen's visions in the House of the Undying include an image of Rhaegar with his newborn son Aegon, proclaiming that "there must be a third" because "the dragon has three heads". Given that, according to Jon Connington, Rhaegar's wife Elia was believed infertile after two difficult pregnancies, and that Aegon the Conqueror himself had two wives, it is logical for Rhaegar to have attempted to fulfill prophecy by having a third child with another woman.

Straight from the ASOIAF wiki. Can you see another theory being used? No? Good.

It's a poor lie at best to claim that R+L=J relies on other theories. All that's needed for this theory is evidence, and it succeeds.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

And at some point, they both become gray. Perhaps we should be discussing the 'friend that follows and supports'. Sam or Brienne?

If Jon and Jaime ultimately turn into gray characters, then the only thing that distinguishes their trajectory are the people that follow them.

Interesting idea, and again strong parallels.

Sam is expected to become a warrior, a dedication to which he is physically unsuited, but manages to break free of that to pursue his life's dream of going to the Citadel (interesting side remark for those interested in 7 symbolic: he basically exchanged warrior for crone).

Brienne is expected to become a lady wife, a dedication to which she is physically unsuited, but manages to break free of that to pursue her life's dream of becoming a warrior (exchanging the maiden for the warrior).

Interestingly, Sam, despite moving in the opposite direction, has succeeded in one of the rarest feats in the warrior category: Slaying an Other. Will Brienne have a similarly rare success in the romantic arena? (Brienne-Jaime shippers, here is your chance!)

[daario's man]

Great work Blede, love the parallels. I'm don't believe that Jon will become king, but if it was an absolute asshole I might be OK with it.

Also I loved Bumps' "white knight in black, black night in white" analogy.

[daario's man]

Interesting idea, and again strong parallels.

Sam is expected to become a warrior, a dedication to which he is physically unsuited, but manages to break free of that to pursue his life's dream of going to the Citadel (interesting side remark for those interested in 7 symbolic: he basically exchanged warrior for crone).

Brienne is expected to become a lady wife, a dedication to which she is physically unsuited, but manages to break free of that to pursue her life's dream of becoming a warrior (exchanging the maiden for the warrior).

Interestingly, Sam, despite moving in the opposite direction, has succeeded in one of the rarest feats in the warrior category: Slaying an Other. Will Brienne have a similarly rare success in the romantic arena? (Brienne-Jaime shippers, here is your chance!)

Nice, maybe Brienne becomes a mother to those orphaned children at the inn. She already protected them.

[houseHB]

Also just like R+L = J, A+J could = Jaime and Cersei so they both could be Targaryen's.

[Groat]

Great post. I read your parallels before in another thread, and I really like you listing them all in their own thread. Just to add or embellish to the parallels, both seem to have undergone serious changes while in captivity, both concerning the opinions of their captors, as well as their own views on personal honor.

Jon is heavily influenced by his time with the Wildlings, and is, almost to the point of being radical, a huge proponent to aiding the Wildlings and helping them pass the wall. Jaime too, seems to be shifting to a more Stark / Tully oriented person. He talks about his resounding respect for the Blackfish, he considers the Blackwoods to have more honor, and he sent Brienne on the mission to aid the Starks. That, plus his hatred of the Freys shows where his allegiances are slowly shifting to. Not only that, but they each had to battle their former captors to some capacity. This is where the parallels turn to foils, where Jaime manages to keep his vows to the Tullys by never taking up arms against them, while Jon seems to 100% betray the Wildlings, with the killing of Ygritte and the attempted assassination of Mance.

I just thought of something else. Jon's best bodyguard is Ghost, an entirely white direwolf. This could be both a subtle hint to Jon, the real king, having his own KG, as well as foreshadowing that Jaime will become a KG for Jon.

[daario's man]

Also just like R+L = J, A+J could = Jaime and Cersei so they both could be Targaryen's.

Then we could do a parallel between their "fathers" err...

Ned was very honourable, Tywin wasn't.

Ned got beheaded trying to save his daughter, Tywin got shot by his son.

Is this working?

[Ingelheim]

Awesome post. Well done.

[WatcherOnTheWall]

This is quite good, nut I'm not buying into Jon being an 'arrogant jerk'. It is way too much of a reversal in character to believe.

[Nothing]

It's a rule of thumb to not use other theories in order to make your own theories, because it just makes your theory seem all the more unreliable. While they may have a good chance of being true, it still isn't 100%--otherwise it wouldn't be called a theory. I also don't find these theories necessary assumptions in your post, personally, because Jaime and Jon have a lot of things in common.

Disagree. You can easily build a theory based on other theory. It's pretty normal in science, e. g. there is a whole branch of math "if only Riemann hypothesis is correct". If my theory is 99 % right (but still not proved) and your theory based on mine is also 99 % right, it makes your theory 98.01 % right, which is still beleviable enough.

[Morienthar]

I don't want to go off topic, so this is my final post, but it's incredibly obvious that at least R+L=J is indeed a single theory (they don't rely on other theories to make their point). All it has are some pieces of evidence in its favor:

Straight from the ASOIAF wiki. Can you see another theory being used? No? Good.

It's a poor lie at best to claim that R+L=J relies on other theories. All that's needed for this theory is evidence, and it succeeds.

I don't think you understood me....

It doesn't matter.

[Nephenee]

Disagree. You can easily build a theory based on other theory. It's pretty normal in science, e. g. there is a whole branch of math "if only Riemann hypothesis is correct". If my theory is 99 % right (but still not proved) and your theory based on mine is also 99 % right, it makes your theory 98.01 % right, which is still beleviable enough.

Only if the Riemann hypothesis indeed has a 99% chance of being correct. R+L=J? Probably.

But not GNC. I'd give that a 30-40% chance of being true, to be perfectly honest.

[Eating My Wings]

Jon is heavily influenced by his time with the Wildlings, and is, almost to the point of being radical, a huge proponent to aiding the Wildlings and helping them pass the wall. Jaime too, seems to be shifting to a more Stark / Tully oriented person. He talks about his resounding respect for the Blackfish, he considers the Blackwoods to have more honor, and he sent Brienne on the mission to aid the Starks. That, plus his hatred of the Freys shows where his allegiances are slowly shifting to. Not only that, but they each had to battle their former captors to some capacity. This is where the parallels turn to foils, where Jaime manages to keep his vows to the Tullys by never taking up arms against them, while Jon seems to 100% betray the Wildlings, with the killing of Ygritte and the attempted assassination of Mance.

:shocked: Sorry, but this makes very little sense. He commands the siege, and that does count as taking up arms against them. And to make the matters worse, he threatens Ed. He gave the Frey Scum a lesson about how one should made a threat only if he would fulfill it just a minute ago. He would have massacred Ed's family and destroyed the castle, breaking his oath as no one before.

He respects BF? Then why does he treat him as an outlaw, hunt him and threaten whoever would shelter him?

He shifts to a Stark/Tully oriented person? Then why does he force Ed to do something he would rather die than do and sentence him to a whole-life jail? Why does he order his men to shoot Jeyne, were she to escape?

He expresses his hatred towards the Freys in a very strange manner, fighting for them and handing the castle over to them.

If he likes Blackwood's honor, then why does he force him to put his honor aside and kidnap his son?

[Young Queen Nym]

"It's a rule of thumb to not use other theories in

order to make your own theories, because it

just makes your theory seem all the more

unreliable." (Unsure how exactly to quote that before I start)

I'm relatively new around here and this is my first comment here, but IMO all theories are based on assumptions. For example, just because Lyanna was in a bed of blood we ASSUME that she must have given birth, and thus comes the theory that she and Rhaegar had a child: Jon Snow; which almost everyone seems to believe is true. Why then would it be wrong to base a theory on another theory, which is technically a well thought out conclusion to an assumption?

[Nephenee]

"It's a rule of thumb to not use other theories in

order to make your own theories, because it

just makes your theory seem all the more

unreliable." (Unsure how exactly to quote that before I start)

I'm relatively new around here and this is my first comment here, but IMO all theories are based on assumptions. For example, just because Lyanna was in a bed of blood we ASSUME that she must have given birth, and thus comes the theory that she and Rhaegar had a child: Jon Snow; which almost everyone seems to believe is true. Why then would it be wrong to base a theory on another theory, which is technically a well thought out conclusion to an assumption?

Because a theory relies on multiple assumptions. As you point out, R+L=J relies on Lyanna giving birth. But it also relies on the fact that Ned didn't change his thoughts from Jon to Lyanna out of mere coincidence, that Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna, and that they were in love, and so on.

But more assumptions are worse than less assumptions.

Think of it this way. If your theory had 10 assumptions, and it relied on another theory with 10 assumptions, that's 20 assumptions. If a theory only relied on 10 assumptions, that's even better!

[Young Queen Nym]

Okay so let us say then that the more assumptions a theory is based on, the less plausible that theory is, which is fair enough. But IMHO to say it is a rule of thumb not to make theories from other theories is a bit too much.

[Greymoon]

Would that be an argument in favor of Jon + Dany, to parallel the incest Jaime + Cersei?