White Walkers and Children of the forest led to the dragons hatching?

[TheChemicalSyndicate]

Last night my friend, who now considers me an authority on A Song of Ice and Fire after i told her i read the books (she's only seen the shows), started asking me thousands of questions about what happens in later books and how long it takes Dany to get to Westeros, what happens to Tyrion, where is Bran going bla bla bla bla. Eventually she asked me a question I don't know the answer to so I told here I would refer it to the actual authorities on A Song of Ice and Fire

Q: Martins talks about magic as a sort of force in the world that rises and falls, sometimes strong, sometimes weak(is this correct?). Does this mean that the White Walkers are the reason the dragons hatched? I.e. are they the source of the magic or are they also just becoming stronger because the magic force is getting stronger.

[Tommen Beetsbane]

I think they are getting stronger because magic is coming back,not vice verse. because others operate using ice magic i don't think they would impact something using fire magic

[Sevumar]

One view of what's happening in the world proposes that after the Doom suppressed the active "level" of magic in Western Essos and Westeros, it has slowly been trickling back into existence. There may be a level of magic required for dragons to hatch or for the Others to either stir from dormancy or to begin a campaign into the south.

This is sort of a "rising tide lifts all boats" way of looking at things, with various creatures, peoples, and magical actions being boats that come into play at different levels of the tide.

[Fanless Mace]

Okay, this rambles a bit, but stick with me:

I suspect magic is stronger when human bonds are weaker. For millennia, the First Men and the Andals have lived with great strife and struggle, but we sense it has been calm for much of the Targ's rule compared to the early days of battles with the Others, the building of the wall, etc.

I think of the Wall as a stopgap metaphor, kind of like eating highly processed foods that say "diet" on them (perhaps you'll lose some weight, but you won't be fully healthy). And now we need a more permanent solution. (More HB1 visas for Others? (-: )

In that light, the magic had been waning for quite some centuries. The Targs used to,use dragonfire to control their enemies, but their dragons grew smaller and smaller. The kingdom used the Wall to keep winter and evil Others at bay. The citadel knew how to fight dragons with other magic, the magic of obsidian. But as the stories grew older, the battalions of the NW became smaller and smaller, maesters forgot how to fight dragons, etc. and now we are setting in for a long winter as the kingdom is torn to pieces by battle and turmoil...and a counter-balancing increase in magic. Magic increases as human uncertainty increases (sort of like wild swings in the stock market).

The whole arc of the story is towards a unification of fire and ice, which have been too long separated. The Wall splits the continent. Children of the forest live in hiding. Man is at war everywhere with man. When life is in balance, we don't need no stinking magic.

I find Varys an interesting touchstone here. He's very modern and Machiavellian, and a lot of his personal pain and motivation come at the hands of a Qyburn-like sorcerer. Varys hates magic.

Mel on the other hand relies all to much on magic, and hence she's often wrong.

There is a middle path. I suspect dire wolves help one achieve buddhahood. And I suspect GRRM won't QUITE get us there in e end, but we may see the dawning of Spring.

[evita mgfs]

Great posts to all of you above.

I observed how Martin employs the writing craft to emphasize key points.

Martin frames his first novel A Game of Thrones in his series AsoIaF with three supernatural “appearances” that grow more symbolic and significant as the series continues. They are the White Walkers, the direwolves, and the dragons.

[Kienn]

To me all magic in the series seems to stem from human sacrifices. Valyrians used blood magic to make and control dragons. Northerners made sacrifices in front of weirwood trees to the Old Gods for what seems to be individual wishes (vengeance etc).

The Doom obviously put an end to a huge source of sacrifices since it destroyed the Valyrian empire.

Targaryens conquering Westeros also seemed to put an end to most sacrifices in the North for some reason.

With both major sources of sacrifice over(Ice and Fire for Northerners and Valyrians), magic quickly weakened over only a couple centuries. There are still some sacrifices going on of course, individual sorcerers doing it with intent (Varys' cutting) and people like Craster.

The only question is why did it suddenly gain strength again. Was Daenerys' triple sacrifice really special enough to spark it all back? Was it Craster's gradual sacrifices over the past few decades? Was it someone else?

[Iona]

With both major sources of sacrifice over(Ice and Fire for Northerners and Valyrians), magic quickly weakened over only a couple centuries. There are still some sacrifices going on of course, individual sorcerers doing it with intent (Varys' cutting) and people like Craster.

The only question is why did it suddenly gain strength again. Was Daenerys' triple sacrifice really special enough to spark it all back? Was it Craster's gradual sacrifices over the past few decades? Was it someone else?

I'd also add the R'hllor followers here, since I suspect they've been having barbeque parties for centuries now.

[Kienn]

I'd also add the R'hllor followers here, since I suspect they've been having barbeque parties for centuries now.

They're also a prime suspect for possibly recently sacrificing many at once to revive magic, or for some other purpose with magic being the side effect.

[Ahura Mazda]

The world may have been literally drown into magic for thousands of years, that has naught to do with the perceived level of magic that people in Westeros have.

It is just like electricity, its potential has been around the whole time but people didn't possess the imagination, knowledge and power to manipulate and exploit it for their own needs for centuries.. If we are ever going to face some world-wide disaster that lasts some centuries and prevents people from studying from books.. ..are we really sure we don't end up in a situation in which nobody is able to start a machine in the future, and they won't believe "magic/electricity" has disappeared from the world? Some groups may well believe that the doom we experienced was caused by such a knowledge, and actively diffuse false information regarding the ways in which electricity can be produced, stored and used up until when nobody really recalls how to do it. "Electricity may have been a strong power in the past Bran, but today Shuttles, Planes and Uranium are gone from the world and the electricity is gone as well for ever." said Luwin.

The only thing I am certain is that some one has recently discovered how to use magic (Daenerys), and that her powerful use has empowered other's people attempts/usages of it.

We don't really know whether other people could use magic up until now but the level they could use was so littl that they could accomplish only small tricks.. or all of them were doing the right enchantments without any magical result at all.

Also, I am convinced that in other places of Planetos - like Asshai - magic was used up until now without discontinuity.

[Newboy]

The only thing I am certain is that some one has recently discovered how to use magic (Daenerys), and that her powerful use has empowered other's people attempts/usages of it.

We don't really know whether other people could use magic up until now but the level they could use was so littl that they could accomplish only small tricks.. or all of them were doing the right enchantments without any magical result at all.

Also, I am convinced that in other places of Planetos - like Asshai - magic was used up until now without discontinuity.

How do you explain The Warlocks of Qarth, in the House of the Undying, noticing an increase in power around Dany's dragons?

[Lord Reaver]

The only thing I am certain is that some one has recently discovered how to use magic (Daenerys), and that her powerful use has empowered other's people attempts/usages of it.

That's a nice thought, but I can't quite agree with it being correct here. For one thing, people have been trying to use magic for a long time. The Rhollorites have rituals and spells, so do the Warlocks etc. etc. But now, these things suddenly have gone from more or less "empty" rituals to actually working. Take Thoros of Myr for example; The first time he brought Beric back, he was as surprised that it worked as anyone.

This suggests that the ways of working magic have been kept alive, more as rituals than anything, but that there simply hasn't been any "electricity" around to actually make them work. Sort of like having a bunch of power-tools and no where to plug them in. Sure you can still try and screw that screw in with your drill, but chances are you'll look like an idiot and just using a screwdriver works better.

Now, all of a sudden, for some reason, power is back. And all hell is loose.

[Iona]

That's a nice thought, but I can't quite agree with it being correct here. For one thing, people have been trying to use magic for a long time. The Rhollorites have rituals and spells, so do the Warlocks etc. etc. But now, these things suddenly have gone from more or less "empty" rituals to actually working. Take Thoros of Myr for example; The first time he brought Beric back, he was as surprised that it worked as anyone.

This suggests that the ways of working magic have been kept alive, more as rituals than anything, but that there simply hasn't been any "electricity" around to actually make them work. Sort of like having a bunch of power-tools and no where to plug them in. Sure you can still try and screw that screw in with your drill, but chances are you'll look like an idiot and just using a screwdriver works better.

Now, all of a sudden, for some reason, power is back. And all hell is loose.

I'd be inclined to agree that magic has been gone or has just been a bunch of empty rituals, but Melisandre seems to contradict this. From what I gather from her POV she's been seeing things in her flames for a long long time.

[Ahura Mazda]

That's a nice thought, but I can't quite agree with it being correct here. For one thing, people have been trying to use magic for a long time. The Rhollorites have rituals and spells, so do the Warlocks etc. etc. But now, these things suddenly have gone from more or less "empty" rituals to actually working. Take Thoros of Myr for example; The first time he brought Beric back, he was as surprised that it worked as anyone.

This suggests that the ways of working magic have been kept alive, more as rituals than anything, but that there simply hasn't been any "electricity" around to actually make them work. Sort of like having a bunch of power-tools and no where to plug them in. Sure you can still try and screw that screw in with your drill, but chances are you'll look like an idiot and just using a screwdriver works better.

Now, all of a sudden, for some reason, power is back. And all hell is loose.

IMHO Greesight and warging are a form of magic, and that stuff never disappeared..