winter vs Winter -- capitalization as a clue?

[Scrambled Aegon]

First off, read at least the start of this thread, which theorizes in pretty solid detail that the upcoming Westerosi winter has a bit more going on than normal. I originally posted this in that thread, but then decided to move it to its own.

*****

So the basic underlying theory here is that because there are no Starks in Winterfell (as the Boltons are now formally, legally in charge of it) we're in for a funky, extraordinary winter that is emanating out of Winterfell. After reading about all of that and thinking it was awesome and likely accurate, I realized that in "Winter Is Coming" (which, as was said early on, can be assumed to be a threat of what happens if you fuck with the Starks and their home, hence the lack of direct reference to the house itself [as in "Our Blades Are Sharp", "Hear Me Roar", "Here We Stand", etc] or obvious implied reference [as in "(The Tyrells Are) Growing Strong", "(The Targaryens Bring) Fire And Blood", etc]) and in the book title "The Winds Of Winter", "winter" is capitalized. In both of these cases, the "Winter" being referenced is the hypothetical winter that occurs if Winterfell should fall out of the hands of the Starks (if we believe that that is what the next winter is.)

So I thought to myself that maybe it's possible that, in the fifth book in particular, GRRM capitalizes "winter" whenever he wants to refer specifically to the upcoming winter -- the special winter that is going to happen as a result of the Boltons taking Winterfell -- but does not capitalize it whenever he wants to refer to a general winter? That is, "Winter" can be read as the winter that has been wrought by the absence of Starks in Winterfell, while "winter" can be read as regular old Westerosi winter. I thought that maybe GRRM, being the sly cat he is, might have specifically capitalized references to the abnormal upcoming Winter in order to subtly hint that it is different from the usual winters that Westeros folk are used to.

And I decided to check. I looked through ADWD for any instance of the word "winter" being used to refer to the upcoming winter -- rather than a general winter, as if someone simply said "Gee, I sure do hate winter a lot more than I hate summer!" -- to see whether they were all capitalized, in order to hint at a difference between "Winter" and "winter." And what I found exceeded my expectations. Here, listed by when they appeared in the text, is a list of all the times I saw where somebody used the word "winter" in talking about the specific one that is coming up soon. The times, that is, where "winter" can be mentally swapped out for "this next winter" without the sentence losing its meaning (thus I am not including things like "Penny finally emerged from her cabin, creeping up on deck like some timid woodland creature emerging from a long winter’s sleep.").

Apologies for the lack of specific chapter numbers.

"Until that day, let us eat and drink and make merry … for winter is almost upon us, my friends, and many of us here shall not live to see the spring.” (part of Roose Bolton's toast to 'Arya')

Between the men of the Watch and the wildlings down in Mole’s Town, the hills and fields near Castle Black had been hunted clean, and there had been little enough game to begin with. Winter is coming, Jon reflected.

"Winter is coming, my lords, and when it does, we living men will need to stand together against the dead." (part of a Jon quote)

“Winter is almost upon us, boy." (part of a Hugo Hull quote)

"Winter is nigh upon us." (Tycho Nestoris to Jon)

“Lord Stannis is lost in the storm,” said Lady Dustin. “He’s leagues away, dead or dying. Let winter do its worst. A few more days and the snows will bury him and his army both.”

And us as well, thought Theon, marveling at her folly. Lady Barbrey was of the north and should have known better. The old gods might be listening.

Even the mud was icing up about the edges, Theon saw. “Winter is coming …”

"Winter is nigh, I want no more mouths to feed." (Old Flint to Jon)

“I have agreed that the free folk may keep their furs and pelts. They will need those for warmth when winter comes. All other wealth they must surrender. Gold and silver, amber, gemstones, carvings, anything of value." (Jon)

“Winter is coming,” Jon said at last, breaking the awkward silence, “and with it the white walkers."

“The Wall will weep. And winter almost on us. It’s unnatural, m’lord. A bad sign, you ask me.” (Dolorous Edd)

"Winter is almost upon us now. I am your only hope." (Melisandre to Jon)

“Winter,” said Ser Kevan.

Thirteen incidences of people specifically referencing the upcoming winter -- the Winter that, per this theory, has arrived on behalf of the Starks in order to punish the Boltons for taking Winterfell, rather than the winter that occurs all the time. Within these thirteen quotes, I notice a pattern. Both of the quotes that come from people in support of House Bolton -- Barbrey Dustin, and Roose himself -- fail to capitalize "winter." They fail, that is, to recognize that what is coming is not an ordinary change of seasons but rather a magical punishment against the side of the man that killed the King in the North and took his castle as a final insult. These characters -- who surely will be victims of the upcoming Winter, if the theory that the next snowy season is one meant to punish the side of House Bolton -- see signs of ordinary winter, when what is coming is Winter.

(Those two quotes, of course, are pretty telling on their own; Roose's "many of us will not live to see the spring" is in itself setting up him and his troops to die in the winter, and Dustin's passage speaks for itself: she is arrogantly assuming that the winter will only take her enemies, something Theon notes as a folly for a Northerner who should be aware of the old gods. She makes a folly, illustrated by her using "winter" to refer to what is in reality a Stark "Winter.")

On the opposite side of the spectrum from those two quotes -- people who are unaware that they will be victims of Winter referring to it as if it is any other winter they have encountered -- we have all of the quotes where "winter" is capitalized: quotes from people who oppose House Bolton and therefore will not be victims of wrongly assuming the upcoming winter is an ordinary one. Jon, Melisandre, Old Flint, and Hugo Hull all refer to the upcoming Winter with its proper, respectful capitalization, and they are all clearly in direct opposition to Roose Bolton and his men. Theon, although not really on the side of Stannis, has clearly been ravaged by the Boltons more than anyone else and is thus in clear opposition to them -- and it is he who notices the folly of the insolent Lady Barbrey -- and he, too, recognizes the next Winter for what it is. Tycho is a Braavosi outlier but has negotiated with Stannis in ways that aid his efforts, ultimately putting him in opposition to Roose Bolton.

We then have Kevan Lannister; although in a broader view the Lannisters have been aligned with the Boltons, Kevan himself is not tied to the Boltons in this specific conflict at Winterfell. He, therefore, is neither a Melisandre on the side of Stannis nor a Barbrey Dustin on the side of Roose; as a neutral outlier, we must look to his general character to know what to make of his point of view on the upcoming Winter. His general character is essentially that he is a competent and aware ruler -- a "good man" even according to his murderer on the night of his death -- and because he is as notably competent as he is, he is capable of recognizing this next seasonal change for what it really is: Winter, not winter. Indeed, that we have Kevan, an impartial observer with no distinct, individual loyalties either way to cloud his judgment of what the harsh storms will bring for the Winterfell conflict, recognizing Winter rather than winter just adds more weight to the theory that Winterfell storms are arising to punish House Bolton. Kevan is objective, and Kevan notices the same Winter that Jon, Melisandre, etc. notice, rather than the mere winter that Roose & Pals notice.

There are two quotes on my list that I have not yet addressed. First, the quote from Dolorous Edd. Edd, although ultimately in opposition to Lord Bolton due to his ties to Jon, does not capitalize Winter. However, his quote, when looked at in its wider context, still ultimately supports this theory. He is remarking on how it's unnatural, a "bad sign", for it to be as bright and sunny as it is at the Wall with winter approaching. And were it an ordinary winter, he would be right, and it would be most unnatural for it to still be sunny at the wall; however, because this is a Winter coming outward from Winterfell, it makes sense. Thus, Edd's comment is not that it is winter, but rather that the weather is unusual for winter.. an observation, ultimately, that the weather is indicative of something out of the ordinary.

The other quote on my list is Jon talking about the upcoming winter and not capitalizing it. I ultimately have no explanation for this. It could be an oversight by GRRM, it could be a sign that I am reading a bit too much into things, or perhaps -- hopefully -- there is some other explanation for it I simply didn't think of (like how Ed's lack of capitalization has a clear explanation up above.) That quote comes from Jon XI, in case anyone wants to analyze the context and can think of a reason why it would not be capitalized that would still fit into my belief that the capitalization (or lack thereof) of "winter" in ADWD is not a coincidence.

In short, every character who lies on the side of the man who slayed Robb Stark and took over his castle now sees a mere, ordinary winter that will surely mean the death of Stannis Baratheon, while every character whose loyalty lies with Stannis sees a Winter, a capitalized one, as in the Stark house words. Kevan, the unbiased observer, can help sort things out for us, as surely those who are #TeamRoose would want to expect a winter, while those who are #TeamStannis would want to expect a Winter. Kevan is impartial to the whole conflict, meaning his interpretation of the raven's arrival is objective and likely to be correct.. and what he sees on the horizon is not ordinary winter, but Winter.

Winter is coming; winter is not. Winds of Winter, not of winter, will be upon us in the next book.

[shiola]

Love this post. I definitely think there's something to all of this, and to the thread that you linked to. I'll be damned if I know just what that "something" is...

Great insight. I hope more intelligent people than I can help tie all of this together.

[Aluminum Link]

Yup, there is a definite pattern there. That is, every time 'Winter' appears at the start of the sentence it's capitalized. Every time it's not at the start of the sentence, it's not capitalized.

[Scrambled Aegon]

Yup, there is a definite pattern there. That is, every time 'Winter' appears at the start of the sentence it's capitalized. Every time it's not at the start of the sentence, it's not capitalized.

Well no shit, I don't think he's going to randomly capitalize it in the middle of sentences, because then it would seem really inconsistent and just jump out.

But I don't think it's a coincidence which characters do put it at the start of a sentence (and thus have it capitalized as in the Stark words) or don't put it at the start of the sentence (and thus have it written as any other ordinary winter when the textual evidence, per the other thread, is that it is not.)

This wouldn't be enough for a theory on its own but in conjunction w/ the stuff from the thread I linked, I think it's worth lookin' at.

[shiola]

Yup, there is a definite pattern there. That is, every time 'Winter' appears at the start of the sentence it's capitalized. Every time it's not at the start of the sentence, it's not capitalized.

He consistently puts it at the start of the sentence for certain characters. It's like when Robert says "Snow, Ned!" in aGoT. Yeah, it's capitalized because it's at the beginning.. But maybe GRRM put it at the beginning on purpose.

[Scrambled Aegon]

He consistently puts it at the start of the sentence for certain characters. It's like when Robert says "Snow, Ned!" in aGoT. Yeah, it's capitalized because it's at the beginning.. But maybe GRRM put it at the beginning on purpose.

Yeah exactly. I was going to add a reference to that but then just forgot by the time I'd finished. It's not like this kind of wordplay would be something totally random that has not been suggested or done before.

[The Dornishman's Widow]

And I decided to check. I looked through ADWD for any instance of the word "winter" being used to refer to the upcoming winter -- rather than a general winter, as if someone simply said "Gee, I sure do hate winter a lot more than I hate summer!" -- to see whether they were all capitalized, in order to hint at a difference between "Winter" and "winter." And what I found exceeded my expectations. Here, listed by when they appeared in the text, is a list of all the times I saw where somebody used the word "winter" in talking about the specific one that is coming up soon.

Alright, so I checked also, and the very first instance that jumped at me, the very first one were the word "winter" referred to the upcoming one was Jon Snow talking about "the upcoming winter". Which both puts a spanner in the works of your theory and doesn't appear in your list.

"Then give me the men, Sire. I will provide officers for each of the abandoned forts, seasoned commanders who know the Wall and the lands beyond, and how best to survive the coming winter. In return for all that we've given you [...]"

[Scrambled Aegon]

Alright, so I checked also, and the very first instance that jumped at me, the very first one were the word "winter" referred to the upcoming one was Jon Snow talking about "the upcoming winter". Which both puts a spanner in the works of your theory and doesn't appear in your list.

Damn, I forgot to mention one thing in my post -- the only instances I looked at and included were those from after Ramsay weds 'Arya.' I figured that if the upcoming winter (per the other theory) really is going to be a different one coming out of Winterfell as retribution to the Boltons, then the capitalization and whatnot would really only matter once that wedding has already taken place. So I didn't really look at ones prior to that at all. (Per that, the Aemon quote I had on my list shouldn't have been there -- but I meant to cut it out and didn't mention it in the rest of the post for that reason.)

If there are other ones from the time of the wedding onward that I missed, then that would definitely indicate that I missed things and was reading too much into some instances of the word's usage, but before the wedding (which is where your quote is) I didn't really look because I didn't see it as necessarily relevant. I meant to mention in the opening post that I was only looking at the time of the wedding onward but it just slipped my mind at some point.

[bemused]

I see the unnatural weather from a bit of a different perspective,that is: The presence of a Stark in Winterfell (Benjen ) is the catalyst for ( or strengthens) this weather , as a part of Winterfell's magical defenses against attack. In this scenario, the weather sees Stannis' forces as foes,as well as the Boltons.

The signs that winter was approaching appeared (to the reader, at least) well before the fall of Winterfell , so I don't think that a Winterfell without Starks triggers winter,itself .... but when winter comes ,if there's no Lord Stark ( or King of Winter) in WF to lead , things will go much worse for everyone ..because only Starks are tied to the magic, so it won't be able to be utlized, and because no-one else can command the loyalty of the people like a Stark .

Though I don't think there's anything to the actual capitalization , I do think that Stark loyalists( nothing to do with Stannis) imbue "winter" with a bit more meaning than others.

I have been struck by the Lady Dustin quote, but keep forgetting to work it into my posts....

“Lord Stannis is lost in the storm,” said Lady Dustin. “He’s leagues away, dead or dying. Let winter do its worst. A few more days and the snows will bury him and his army both.”

And us as well, thought Theon, marveling at her folly. Lady Barbrey was of the north and should have known better. The old gods might be listening.

Theon's wrong about her. There's nothing foolish about Barbrey. She's not loyal to Roose , IMO , but has been conspiring with Manderly and the rest of the GNC. She does know better and ,I think , holds a deeper meaning to those words in her heart... I believe she will prove to be among the staunchest Stark loyalists ( for many, and complicated reasons ).

Theon is right about the storm not being good for the Bolton forces cooped up in WF , though...And Barbrey understands this as well..."Let winter do its worst." .. winter is coming ..the Starks and all those loyal to them are coming..the Starks - the old Kings of Winter. It's a fervent wish , or a prayer ,or even a promise (and a threat against anyone but Starks seizing control of WF )...if , as I suppose Benjen has been active in leading the GNC and they have a plan to take WF from inside , before Stannis can get there.

[Piper of Chaos]

Yup, there is a definite pattern there. That is, every time 'Winter' appears at the start of the sentence it's capitalized. Every time it's not at the start of the sentence, it's not capitalized.

But that's way toooooooooooo simple. And it doesn't explain all these other super subtle clues which Martin likes to use. Like when he is writing a name in BIG BOLDED LETTERS at the top of a page exactly that character is in the middle of action for the next few pages. I swear, this happens every fuckin' time, approximatily 40-50 times per book! Coincidence? i don't think so, ser!I'm sure Martin is setting something up with this, but I haven't quite figured it out. Perhaps these persons are going to play a key role in the fellowship's journey to Mordor?

[Lyse Stark]

And to throw in my thoughts regarding Jon;

If Jon is really Rhaegar and Lyanna's son then that means Jon is a Winter dragon. And he strongly identifies with the Stark motto than the Targaryen; especially as he worships the Old Gods.

And the Old Gods are coming to punish the Boltons for seizing Winterfell, and then they will turn their sights to the Freys for their violation of guest right.

[Aerys Blackfyre]

in the book title "The Winds Of Winter", "winter" is capitalized because in titles all nouns are capitalized