Barristan the G.O.A.T Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Didn't Grey Wind's head get sewn on the Robb's body. If that doesn't kill you, I am not sure I understand how to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Didn't Grey Wind's head get sewn on the Robb's body. If that doesn't kill you, I am not sure I understand how to die. No POV for this. See above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barristan the G.O.A.T Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I know the show and the book are entirely separate however, the show writers know how the book ends. In the show they depicted Grey wolves head on Robb's shoulder so he was dead. GRRM also has a lot of input on the show and the writers take his input very seriously. As such, if Grey wind did survive and was important later on in the series the show runners would have screwed themselves. If he is alive and is not important and just lives for the sake of living what is the point of all this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 In the show Khal Jhaquo is detongued and slain by Drogo, yet there he is facing Dany at the end of ADwD. So the point is... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barristan the G.O.A.T Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 In the show Khal Jhaquo is detongued and slain by Drogo, yet there he is facing Dany at the end of ADwD. So the point is... ? It doesn't matter who is in charge of the dothraki, the point is to provide an adversary to Daenarys and demonstrate her growth/change in character. All in all, whomever they killed off wouldn't change her plot per say. However, grey wind dying when he wasn't suppose to would be a major plot point ruined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Nymeria was with lady when Lady died... they knew that one....Grey wind was alone... when he died missing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Warg Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 A very well written theory with some decent points, everyone will interpret them differently however so lets not slate people for their opinions.I voted on your poll OP and voted for GW being the wolf that could no longer be sensed, however reading it again i'm afraid I misinterpreted it somehow and I'd have to agree with the previous post that says Summer is in fact the one. Like most other posters I'd love GW (and hence Robb) to still be alive somehow, and given the evidence you've suggested I'll be keeping an eye out for this in the next books! Saying that I still believe he's brown bread unfortunately :thumbsdown: again nicely done though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Kienn, as you know I agree with you that there are enough hints in the text to believe that GW survived. And Raynald Westerling too, for that matter. You also know that I've written extensively on this myself. What I want to say is that I now think you are right-- there doesn't appear to be any evidence at all that the Wall blocks skinchanging. Sweet I voted on your poll OP and voted for GW being the wolf that could no longer be sensed, however reading it again i'm afraid I misinterpreted it somehow and I'd have to agree with the previous post that says Summer is in fact the one. Dang... broke even I guess. Which part exactly convinced you he couldn't sense Summer anymore? I know the show and the book are entirely separate however, the show writers know how the book ends. In the show they depicted Grey wolves head on Robb's shoulder so he was dead. GRRM also has a lot of input on the show and the writers take his input very seriously. As such, if Grey wind did survive and was important later on in the series the show runners would have screwed themselves. If he is alive and is not important and just lives for the sake of living what is the point of all this? This sounds awfully familiar... FAQ I know the show is different and has no relevance for discussing the books… but… you know… it clearly showed Grey Wind’s head on Robb’s body and D&D wouldn’t dare to change something so important. Plus like GRRM also even works for the show… so it must be true, obviously. Why would it be so important? How is it relevant to any remaining plot point or event that can't be rolled into Nymeria for the show? If Robb were still alive inside Grey Wind then he would still be KitN and would be able to sit on the throne in Winterfell, howling his orders at his bannermen, pfft… duh… Ok, you can stick to that I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Additionally, we have a chain of wolf's head = false death connections. Remember we have no actual eyewitness account of a dead GW. Cat hears him howling in her final POV, after which we have nothing but hearsay and rumor about the desecration of Robb’s corpse. We have Dany’s vision and Theon’s dream and we have the wolf:corpse connections. The wolf’s head brooch from the fake Bran and Rickon corpses in Theon’s Clash chapter, and the corpse of Catelyn Stark that was thought dead but then revived, in part due a wolf’s mouth. Those a possible show the connection between a wolf’s head and a false corpse or a corpse that is resurrected. So when we are told GW’s head was sewn to Robb’s corpse it may be a hint of a "false" death or a revival. I certainly don’t think Robb is alive, yet the in story symbolism points to a fake death. Oh yes I did find another link to this after first reading it in your theory but I'm no symbology expert so didn't include it within mine. You mentioned Rickon and Bran and the wolf's head brooch... Davos is also linked since he was sent to the Wolf's Den for his falsely reported death. Rickon, Bran, and Davos are the 3 biggest false deaths in the series I believe, I can't think of any others at the moment that are claimed to be dead(killed) by a third party... most other fake deaths (Arya, Tyrion) are simply cliffhanger moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 You have seen what you want to see. In one example you give you say that Jon missed Ghost, well ya, Jon missed Ghost when 2 regular wolves were behind him and a shadowcat was to his front, I would miss my Direwolf too. It does not say that he cannot sense Ghost, it says he misses Ghost. You also say that Jon can sense Bran north of the wall and that that proves Jon can warg across the wall, but it doesn't because you are assuming Jon can sense Bran by assuming that the 1 wolf is summer, even tho you earlier assumed it was Grey Wind. The 4 are Ghost, Shaggydog, Nymeria, and Summer, the 1 Ghost could not feel was Summer. The reason lady is not mentioned is because she is long dead and was mentioned previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 You also say that Jon can sense Bran north of the wall and that that proves Jon can warg across the wall, but it doesn't because you are assuming Jon can sense Bran by assuming that the 1 wolf is summer, even tho you earlier assumed it was Grey Wind. It looks like you're misunderstanding how I used my first quote [1]. Generally the following quote is used as "proof" that the wall blocks skinchanging and that Ghost cannot sense Summer. Jon DWD ---------------------------------------------- Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself. “Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained ... and one the white wolf could no longer sense. ---------------------------------------------- Posters will point out that Shaggydog and Nymeria are both accounted for and that it is Ghost's PoV so Summer must be the one missing. In my original post I used the other half of the true full quote to show that Summer is actually accounted for as well. Quote [1] Jon DWD ------------------------ Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained ... and one the white wolf could no longer sense. “Snow,” the moon insisted. The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf’s pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer. ------------------------ I'm not assuming here that Summer is the one who could no longer be sensed. I'm proving that Summer is not because it is explicitly mentioned that "the wolf sensed" him. Again, see the true full quote all together to understand it properly. Jon DWD ---------------------------------------------- Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself. “Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained ... and one the white wolf could no longer sense. “Snow,” the moon insisted. The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf’s pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer. ---------------------------------------------- My conclusion is that Grey Wind is the only possibility for the one that cannot be sensed and if this was due to a simple death like Lady's then the quote would be forced to read "two the white wolf could no longer sense". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerys Ahai Reborn Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I'm proving that Summer is not because it is explicitly mentioned that "the wolf sensed" him.Ghost explicitly sensed that it was colder on the other side. Ghost knew Summer was on the other side. They both had been beyond the Wall at the same time for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Ghost explicitly sensed that it was colder on the other side.Ghost knew Summer was on the other side. They both had been beyond the Wall at the same time for some time.I can admit to interpreting it as a very heavy implication that he's sensing the cold through Summer, just as he feels the rain upon Shaggydog, and hears the singing of Nymeria's pack - and feels the "hills were warmer"(in the Riverlands where he hasn't ever been). For me the dichotomy between "could no longer sense" and "sensed" draws an intentional connection by GRRM. If he was simply remembering from his time north of the Wall that it would be colder there and he knew Summer was there from their shared time there... I guess that would partially resolve the issue about the Wall blocking magics (except for Varamyr's eagle - I guess his connection went above the top of the wall, and Summer sensing Ghost in SoS - where you'd have to take "sometimes" to mean "I could always sense Ghost, until he suddenly disappeared for months in a row..."). But you're still left with the second seemingly intentional and otherwise pointless and awkward counting parallel between Summer's [4+1≠5] and Ghost's [6, 5 + 1, 4 remain]. If you want to take both as unintentional phrasing similarities by GRRM then that's fine but I'll keep thinking they're intentional until I see some counter-evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerys Ahai Reborn Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 snip All I meant to say is that it is not explicitly mentioned that Ghost sensed Summer, at least in my opinion. I have tried to keep an open mind while skimming some of this thread, but to me a lot of it comes down to ambiguity that we really cannot figure out and a hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I must simply disagree based on interpretation, there were only 4 wolves alive when ghost says 4 +1 he cannot sense, I believe like the above posted that Ghost knew Summer had crossed the wall. Quotes and everything are pretty much useless here because we disagree on the interpretation of the quotes and we also disagree on the feeling of Robb and Greywinds "deaths". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 but to me a lot of it comes down to ambiguity that we really cannot figure out and a hope. Somewhat, just take Arya's opinion on how we should view reported deaths ------------------------ It wasn’t like they’d seen them die or anything. Maybe Lord Frey had just taken them captive. Maybe they were chained up in his dungeon, or maybe the Freys were taking them to King’s Landing so Joffrey could chop their heads off. They didn’t know. ------------------------ She doesn't believe they're dead until she sees her mother for herself... and then, well... is Cat still dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkekansler Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Jon DWD ---------------------------------------------- Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself. “Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained ... and one the white wolf could no longer sense. “Snow,” the moon insisted. The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf’s pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer. ---------------------------------------------- So even though he knows exactly where each of those 3 siblings are... you think one of them is the one he explicitly mentions he can't sense? Ok thanks. From this I think it´s clear that the one he can´t sense is Summer. The statement “that he can’t sense one” likely doesn’t mean that he´s completely unaware of this one´s whereabouts (and as for mentioned he can simply know of Summers whereabouts from earlier or if you adhere to my interpretation from before he entered BRs cave). Obviously he knows he´s not dead so there´s still some kind of connection. The segment makes it clear that he knows exactly where Shaggydog and Nymeria is and what they´re doing but hints that he only knows the location of Summer (since there´s no description of what he´s up to). Also the way the fragment is composed clearly hint´s that there’s something special with Summer/Summers situation. The same way that Ghost separates himself in for example the for mentioned birth account he´s now separating Summer. Summer is mentioned last and in a distinct other way, very dramatically and most important after the segment that states “one he could not sense” the though process being “one he can´t sense” now let´s talk about him, Summer. So yes this segment to me seems absolutely self-explanatory and most importantly the for mentioned main sentence still clearly states that two wolfs are dead. So yes GW is dead and the one he can´t sense is Summer. The segment is most likely meant to increase the mystery surrounding BR and tCotF and possibly make us feel more anxious about Brans position being cut off from the rest of the world in so many ways. Thing is I have a tendency to zone out during the warging segments (being somewhat less interested in the fantasy aspect of the story) so I´m not very knowledgeable about the thing expressed in these segments. But ones again if you dissect the texts you’ve posted they themselves speak against your point. Sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talking Hodor Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Once they had been six. Four remained. = two dead. Seems pretty clear to me that Grey Wind should not be included in any argument listed in the OP. And the one that cannot be sensed is Summer because he is with the COTF in Blooodraven's warg-safe secret hideout. "For me this is the absolute clincher that Ghost is always considered separately from the other siblings, why else would it be laid out so explicitly that 4 + 1 ≠ 5. Obviously under this interpretation quote [1] can only be interpreted as option B in the poll – Grey Wind is definitely alive but cannot be sensed by his siblings anymore." This is because the Red Wedding has not happened yet, so yes at the time of this quote, GW is alive. You login on how Ghost is viewed is accurate. He is different just like Jon. But that does not necessarily mean that Grey WInd is not dead. Now if you are trying to make a compelling argument that Robb Stark "lives," look no further than Nymeria in the Riverlands leading calculated attacks against Stark enemies. |But Grey Wind is as dead as Ned. Nymeria, through her link with Arya, would know to hunt Freys and Lannisters. I'm not saying GW is dead, but these direwolf guerilla attacks are not proof that he's alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 Nymeria, through her link with Arya, would know to hunt Freys and Lannisters. I'm not saying GW is dead, but these direwolf guerilla attacks are not proof that he's alive. I don't think anyone used those attacks as evidence of GW so I'm not sure what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedric Justice Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 To which wolves do “Four” and “one” refer to in the following line?Four remained… and one the white wolf could no longer sense.__________________________ Surely the one that can't be sensed any more is Lady because she is dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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