Aspects of the gods, the sun and the moon, and Roose Bolton is an other!

[Waters Gate]

Bear with me people, ill be connecting a bunch of theory's of mine here, but i think youll going to like this one.

I have been building my theory about the darkness aspect of the long night, about the aspect of darkness vs light which can be seen trough the books asside of ice vs fire. i'd like to first draw somethign up i mentioned before in another theory:

titles and/or Aspects of the gods:

The god in Asoiaf kinda have titles, for ex:

-R'hllor is the "Lord of light" , the god of fire and maybe sometimes denominated as a few things more

-The Great Other is the god of darkness, cold, and death in the faith of R'hllor.

-Tywin lannister is the Lord of Casterly Rock, Shield of Lannisport and Warden of the West

Now afcourse Tywin is no god, not for everyone atleast. But what i want to point out here is to aspects and importance of titles. We know that the great Other is ice so to speak and r'Hllor is fire, but it's clear that these diety's also bear the aspect of Darkness and light respectivly as they are mentioned being the god of it, and we might even wonder if these aspects of darkness and light are of more importance than of ice and fire. it might be a point of the otrder in which titles come. Like tywin lannister is foremost the lord of Casterly rock, extra titles re secondary ones or honerary ones. Then are these aspects of the gods similar of importance as they follow in the order as it is with noble titles, thus meaning that apsects lght and Darkness come before ice and fire?

lookin at this it criticly, why should all these aspects be construed as making up a title where the order is of importance? That could be questioned, though it certainly looks simmilar to a title where order is of importance. Eitherway it's undeniable though that these is a light VS Darkness aspect to these gods.

"Lord of Light! Come to us in our darkness. We offer you these false gods. Take them and cast your light upon us. For the night is dark and full of terrors" -- Mellisandre

So that was about the importance of light vs darkness in contrast of ice vs fire. There are many points to add to the importance of light and dark, with the long night being denominated as a time of darkness and Azor Ahai being described as someone who has to fight said darkness for which he forges a sword named aptly lightbringer.

Given that there are these several aspects to these diety's, i'd come to think that these diety's might in fact have an avatar. R'hllors avatar then in this case is the sun, and the avatar of the other is the moon. the sun gives light and warmth, and the moon is cold, dark and death and only gives light when it is the light of the sun reflecting on it.

There is quite a bit of lore on the moons around "Planetos". It's been said that once there were 2 moons, 1 crashed onto the sun and created the dragons. There are quite an number of reference's to "the other" surviving moon in the books some of which i'd like to touch:

- "During Ramsay Bolton’s wedding to “Arya Stark” in Winterfell’s godswood above the treetops a crescent moon is floating in a dark sky, half obscured by mist, like an eye peering through a veil of silk."

This is something i first wanted to touch to show the position the moon is at the time and how much light it gives. We get this crescent moon at that time, while there had been mention of more full moons always before.

In my theory's, while the moon is the evil other, the light it reflects is still the godly light of r'hllor, neutralizing it to some point. i wonder if the moon might be moving to a position where it will be completly blacked out as the Long night sets, making the darkness even more complete. If you take previous positions and fullness, it seems to indicate so.

- "When Reek emerges from the dungeons and into the Dreadfort’s yard a full moon is rising over the castle’s eastern walls"

Just to show before and after. Afcourse, its probably that in all the years that the book has passed since that the moon would go trough phases a number of times. Still, as were going towards the long night the moon gets smaller, and maybe there might be significance to a blacked out moon during a long night.

-"Tyrion has never seen a bigger moon than the one he sees aboard the Selaesori Qhoran when the ship is sailing too close to Valyria. Monstrous and swollen, it looks as if it has swallowed the sun and woken with a fever."

Interresting line which draws the atention of the reader at first, but you'd probably not think more of it. But the moon is so much Bigger over valyria, there were the doom happened?

- "A story told to misbehaving children said that on moonless nights bats would fly from Harrenhal and take the bad children back to Mad Danelle"

fear a moonless night

- "Ghost’s red eyes glow like pools of fire in the moonlight."

This might be a very interresting notion if you consider the moonlight the reflections of the sun's light, that sun as avatar of R'hllor lor of fire associated with dragons. it's like saying that the sun identify's this wolf as fire made flesh.

- "Benerro jabs a finger at the moon, makes a fist and spreads it wide as Tyrion watches him."

it is interresting to see that in Benerro's faith the moon has significance and deserve's some rather rude sounding gesture's.

- "the moon kisses Jon Snow and etches his shadow against the Wall."

Somehow i feel there must be significance to this, just don't know what yet.

And now for that which made me hit it.

- " Roose Bolton’s eyes look empty in the moonlight, as if there were no one behind them."

Does this imply that roose Bolton is nothing in the light of the sun? Could this be that roose Bolton is "an other"?? But how? What? Well ok his eyes look like ice, but he looks like a normal human being! He has afterall the skin of a human being right? ..... omg .... the skinning! Cold eyes and constant skinning!

- "No moonlight ever touches the stoney halls of the caves beneath the hill where the three-eyed crow lives."

[Mayura]

I am not quite sure I followed everything you wrote here but you're right about the opposition of light/darkness.

However I am not so sure about the moon symbolism, the only moment I see it playing a role is in Daenerys's arc "my sun and stars - moon of my life" kind of stuff.

But there is an opposition between light (fire, Mel, shadows,...) and darkness (Brynden, Bran and the fact weirwoods take root in the darkest places).

Mal seems to think darkness is a bad omen while up north, Coldhands says to Bran that fire can attract terrible things. Brynden then says darkness is his ally. So I think one or the other isn't "good or evil", it is not as black and white in my honest opinion.

[Waters Gate]

I am not quite sure I followed everything you wrote here but you're right about the opposition of light/darkness.

However I am not so sure about the moon symbolism, the only moment I see it playing a role is in Daenerys's arc "my sun and stars - moon of my life" kind of stuff.

Lets give me one reason/way to come to conclusion of its significance in the context of light/darkness.

Since we are told of a terrible darkness during the long night, and i consider that in my theory's to be a literal darkness than is of danger to people, it came to me considering well how dark can it get and do i have example's of light/darkness plaing a role in the fight with others for ex.?

So ive reread the Waymar Royce chapters from the very beginning from the seires, looking on taking conclusions from it regarding light/darkness.

In those chapters, there is very few light, it's quite dark but not utterly dark so to say. The moon is oberhead giving reflective light which gives the rangers some abilety to see. In that feinght light, the others are difficult to see, the more so being described as wearing some transluscent collor shifting armor which camouflages them. yet in the moonlight they are visible to a small extend.

Could it have been more dark? Well yes, given that say the moon was blacked out, which happens when Planetos would be in a position between the sun and the moon. Then there would have been no light at all, and the others would not even have been visible.

As the long night seems to be approaching, reading it from the books the moon is becomming smaller. Afcourse the moon should have shifted phases many times before normally, but it's not impossible fr moons to go into a lunar eclipse phase. It's just my hunch, that when the long night arrives, the moon shall be in a lunar eclipse phase, and shall be there for quite a while for magical reasons, and that shall make the darkness more dark and terrible.

It seems to me then that what makes the rangers being able to see in that darkness is the moonlight, but this is not light which the moon produces itself. It is light made by the sun reflecting upon it, you could think that in the fight of light vs darkness, as long as the sun can shine upon the moon it can limit the darkness, but should the moon go for extended time in a moon excipse phase then there should be more darkness.

And when you hear about the aspects that are r'hllor, being lord of light and fire, and the other being darkness, cold and death, those aspects simmilar to that of the sun and the moon. The Sun gives light and is fire, very much alive. the moon is Cold and dead and does not give light unless sunlight reflects upon it. One could think of the Sun as being an avatar of r'hllor, A darkened moon of that being the avatar of the other, while the moonlight is essentially rays of rhollor keeping the other under control. but when there is a lunar eclipse, the moon is blacked out, then the moon is in its full dark aspect.

Because of this, i consider ray's of light, whether comming from the sun or reflected on the moon, th light of r'hllor, and it can identify its own aspect with it.

Thats why, when the the moonray's reflect on Jon Snows direwolf and show red flaming eyes, that there is this fire aspect to this wolf, a posible hint to Jon's Targaryan roots, although that itself is a theory.

And when the light shines on Roose Bolton's eyes, those cold eyes that have been described before, it shows that there is only cold, death and darkness there, nothing human really, rather that Roose bolton is more of the aspects of the others.

But i never had thought as the Boltons lust for flailing as some more than mere cruelty. But then if i come to consider that roose Bolton has the eyes of an other, and wonder how it comes that only his eyes seem to hint at him being an other, then the idea that they have been skining people hits me as that they might be doing it to use those skins, to look like humans. It's rather chilling, but kinda resonate's chillingly enough.

Mal seems to think darkness is a bad omen while up north, Coldhands says to Bran that fire can attract terrible things. Brynden then says darkness is his ally. So I think one or the other isn't "good or evil", it is not as black and white in my honest opinion.

yes i can understand a few of those notions but this i think toughes more on the question if for ex the others are really evil or not, and whether the faith of r'hllor is actually good or bad. I don't want to make a judgement per say about any, just show what fits with their aspects.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

This has some interesting points, and I agree there is something seriously off with the Bolton clan. Someone, or maybe multiple someones, suggested that Boltons might be descended from Night's King and his Other bride. Makes sense, and would explain their feud with the Starks, being part Stark themselves and feeling entitled to Winterfell. Definitely something wrong with Roose and son.

But...if the moon is an avatar wouldn't that mean that when AAR defeats The Great Other there will be no more moon and no more darkness? That seems a bit much. From a science standpoint the plants need a break from the sun, as do the people. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding it. I get the symbolism part, but I'm wondering if you are meaning to say that the moon is The Great Other, because that's how I read it.

Totally agree about the light vs dark, life vs death part. Though I would say that the order of importance for R'hllor and The Great Other is reversed from Tywin's. Warden of the West is the most prestigious of his titles. Perhaps another line of separation between the gods and the humans?

[TheLostStark]

You should read "The True Queen" theory. It suggests that the Moonsingers religion isn't quite as dead as everyone thinks.

[Waters Gate]

This has some interesting points, and I agree there is something seriously off with the Bolton clan. Someone, or maybe multiple someones, suggested that Boltons might be descended from Night's King and his Other bride. Makes sense, and would explain their feud with the Starks, being part Stark themselves and feeling entitled to Winterfell. Definitely something wrong with Roose and son.

I think that topic ir right in thinking that there are others among the boltons, i came to about the same conclusion but via my own way.

The One thing Roose Bolton has far more difficulty to change is his eyes. he can mask his otherness with a different skin i guess, but its impossible to replace the eyes. the eyes are often described, they ahve all the apsects of the other. Dark, cold and lifeless.

But...if the moon is an avatar wouldn't that mean that when AAR defeats The Great Other there will be no more moon and no more darkness?

No more darkness i guess. II consider that the most darkness one can get is a lunar eclipse blackening out the moon during the long night. I think it's the "black-out moon" that is the avatar of the other, but as long as light shine's upon it it's under control.

How must Azor Ahai bring light? Good question. Fly up there with a drand and stab the moon with lightbringer so it becomes andother sun. Ok i'm saying that jonkingly. I'm not sure really.

How does a long night happens. The sun vanishes? Because of axial tilt or something? eitherway the implication is a long persiod of darkness, like the half year darkness you get at the polar regions, but then longer like a decade. You can have it different though also eclipse wise. if the moon sits before the sun for a decade, like a decade long solar eclipse, well that can produce a long night too.

Whatever bigger thing that is responsable for the long night, although i really thing lightbringger is there to bring light, i'm not sure how a sword fits into it..

From a science standpoint the plants need a break from the sun, as do the people.

Well you don't need a moon for that, only a rotating planet.

I get the symbolism part, but I'm wondering if you are meaning to say that the moon is The Great Other, because that's how I read it.

Well i'm using the word avatar. That is i think a prolonged lunar eclipse during a prolonged period withought sunlight, or solar eclipse, is the avatar of the other, creating potentially utter darkness.

Totally agree about the light vs dark, life vs death part. Though I would say that the order of importance for R'hllor and The Great Other is reversed from Tywin's. Warden of the West is the most prestigious of his titles. Perhaps another line of separation between the gods and the humans?

Warden of the west is more prestigious, are you sure? I thought it was but a honnorary titel. If tywin had to choose between his title as lord of Casterly rock or warden of the west, which one would he keep?

Afaik Warned of "insert direction" is a title giving the responsability of costal defense in that area to the holder.

-Mace tyrell: Lord of Highgarden, Defender of the marches, High Marshal of the reach, and warden of the south.

in tywins case, warden of the west is his 3rd title, and for mace Tyrell its seems to be his 4th title.

-Robber Baratheon : King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the first men, Lord of the Seven kingdoms, Protector of the Realm

Well i guess the first title includes just a bit more than the 7 kingdoms here, as he's supposed to be the King of all Andals, rhoynar and first men, thus also those living in Essos (there are Andals and Rhoynar living in Essos)

You should read "The True Queen" theory. It suggests that the Moonsingers religion isn't quite as dead as everyone thinks.

I'm quite interrested, where can i find it?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Thanks for explaining it, Waters Gate.

Lord of Casterly Rock is a local title he was born to and would have regardless, where Warden of the West is regional and was granted to him by the crown, so yes I think Warden of the West is the more prestigious title. It gives him a great deal more power and influence than just being rich and lord of CR. In the days before Aegon the Conqueror it would have been King of the Westerlands, I believe. I think Shield of Lannisport probably goes automatically with Lord of CR, and may be more of an honorary title than anything substantive. Could be wrong on that though. Tywin does have a really good record as far as things martial go.

[John Suburbs]

Let's follow this Roose theory a little further:

If he is indeed an Other or half-Other, it stands to reason that he is extremely old, which would be a difficult thing to conceal after a certain amount of time, unless...

... he is in the habit of pulling the old switcheroo the way Ramsey did with Reek, but with a twist. What if he serves as Lord Bolton for a time, then when a son comes of age he is killed, flayed and the Other-Bolton puts on the new skin and changes identity? The old Lord is dead, the son becomes the new lord an no one is the wiser that they are one and the same.

This would explain why Roose was not terribly upset at the death of his son, Domeric, which he suspects was at the hand of Ramsey, because he always intended to kill Dom anyway. It also means that, should Fat Walda produce an heir, Ramsey's days are numbered because Roose will likely kill him, change into Ramsey's identity, become the new lord again and then either get child on Jeyne/Arya (assuming he gets her back), bide his time until either of these heirs comes of age, and then repeat the process again. Only this time, he has a chance of not only becoming another Bolton, but a Stark as far as the rest of the world is concerned.

If Roose were to suddenly die in the final two books, it will be interesting to note whether Ramsey's eyes suddenly become "pale as morning mist."

[Queen Whore]

Whatever you all are smoking, can I have some?

This is crazy and I totally love it. Something is way off with the Bolton clan. Perhaps you've hit the nail on the head!

[Waters Gate]

Also consider his voice. Roose is described as always talking with a very soft voice, needing people to really pay attention to understand what he says.

The others are decribed to make a very icy cracking sound when they talk aloud or laugh, which they do before they slay Waymar Royce. I guess his voice is another thing Roose can't change with the change of skin, and so rather speaks very soft to mask it.

... he is in the habit of pulling the old switcheroo the way Ramsey did with Reek, but with a twist. What if he serves as Lord Bolton for a time, then when a son comes of age he is killed, flayed and the Other-Bolton puts on the new skin and changes identity? The old Lord is dead, the son becomes the new lord an no one is the wiser that they are one and the same.

I subscribe to that. Yes i think Roose probably has changed his skin before. We don't know the name of his father or his discription to compare sadly.

If Roose were to suddenly die in the final two books, it will be interesting to note whether Ramsey's eyes suddenly become "pale as morning mist."

Well Ramsey's eyes are alreay pretty simmilar to that of his father.

Edit: I'm beginning to wonder if there is reason there why Ramsey was sad to loose "his Reek"

Theon would be a good skin to crawl into maybe for the sake of certain ambitions. A good skin to have so to say.

[John Suburbs]

Also consider his voice. Roose is described as always talking with a very soft voice, needing people to really pay attention to understand what he says.

The others are decribed to make a very icy cracking sound when they talk aloud or laugh, which they do before they slay Waymar Royce. I guess his voice is another thing Roose can't change with the change of skin, and so rather speaks very soft to mask it.

I subscribe to that. Yes i think Roose probably has changed his skin before. We don't know the name of his father or his discription to compare sadly.

Well Ramsey's eyes are alreay pretty simmilar to that of his father.

Edit: I'm beginning to wonder if there is reason there why Ramsey was sad to loose "his Reek"

Theon would be a good skin to crawl into maybe for the sake of certain ambitions. A good skin to have so to say.

That's because Ramsey carries blood from the Roose/Other, so he will pick up some traits. It probably made it easier to pull of the trick because people wouldn't think it strange for someone with pale eyes to go suddenly paler, especially it he is getting over the trauma of losing his beloved lord father.

My guess is that Roose/Other is not the Night's King but the only surviving son of the Night's King. He was probably due to be sacrificed when Joramun and the KotN put an end to it all. And since the NK was probably a Bolton, the sun inherited all his lands and titles. Voila.

[Waters Gate]

Sounds plausible too

I'm kinda thinking now what the significance could be of this line:

"Tyrion has never seen a bigger moon than the one he sees aboard the Selaesori Qhoran when the ship is sailing too close to Valyria. Monstrous and swollen, it looks as if it has swallowed the sun and woken with a fever."

What does it mean? it's easy enough to be a bit baffled as reader and pay no further attention i guess. But Tyrion is an intelligent man, and he has watched the moon often enough as there are more reference's of him watching it.

"monsterous and swollen" Is it bigger around valyria? "it looks like it has swallowed up the sun and woken with a fever", does that mean we are seeing some sort of solar eclipse here above the smoking sea?

"Swallowed up and woken with a fever" does give credence to there being a solar eclipse, as it suggests the sun is behind the moon thus eaten up, and the fever is probably the light around the moon. Monsterous and swollen could also refer to the sunlight one can still see around a moon during a solar eclipse.

Does this have anything to do with the doom or the situation around valyria still with like the Smoking sea? Bennero suggests something to the sky in one of the chapters before in volantis still:

"Tyrion is atop Jorah’s horse as Benerro jabs a finger at the moon, makes a fist and spread his hands wide. When Benerro’s voice rises to a crescendo flames leap from his fingers with a sudden whoosh and make the crowd gasp. Tyrion sees that the priest can trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs Tyrion realises. He recognises perhaps two glyphs in ten; one is Doom, the other Darkness.."

As reader we are left to wonder, what the hell did Bennero do there, and whats the significance of it? It seems plausable from this line though that the moon matters to his faith, and it's interresting to see the words "doom" and "darkness" being brought in connection with it.