The Hero’s Journey and ASOIAF

[Dilecta]

If this idea has been discussed before, I apologize. I haven't seen it and it has been weighing on my mind lately, so I decided to write it out and look for some insight from you.

When I first began to read AGOT, I assumed that it would, in essence, be a typical Hero’s Journey story; so I read it with the Monomyth in mind. Early on, I figured that the Heroes were going to be Jon and Dany and that ASOIAF would be about the joining of their forces (Jon = Ice / Dany = Fire) to rule the world, because, well, that is the title, right? Although I was saddened by Ned’s execution and Khal Drogo’s death, I knew they were part and parcel of Jon and Dany’s Call to Adventure and were necessary to the story. Then Robb was declared King in the North. Arya started BAMF-ing it. Sansa’s story picked up. Bran started warging. Were there going to be 6 heroes in this story? How would that work? Obviously, things didn’t go as I anticipated.

Since I’ve read all 5 books now (plus the D&E stories and much too much online), I think I could be forgiven for giving up on the Hero’s Journey idea. However, I haven’t. As much as GRRM likes subverting tropes and assumptions, I still think ASOIAF is still basically a Hero’s Journey story. Of course, it will not be a typical Hero’s Journey and there may even end up being more than one hero (actually quite likely in my estimation). I admit that I am not sure just who the hero(es) will turn out to be at this point. I’m not even sure it’s very important anymore.

But the idea of the Hero’s Journey in ASOIAF refuses to let me go, so I thought I’d plot out some of the characters and their steps on the typical Hero’s Journey to work some of it out in black and white. I figured seeing it all might help me make sense of where GRRM intends to take the rest of the story.

This is what I’ve come up with so far. What do you all think? Are there things I’m missing or overlooking? Does the Hero’s Journey even make sense with where GRRM has been taking the story so far?

THE ORDINARY WORLD

- The Stark children at Winterfell

- Dany in Pentos

THE CALL TO ADVENTURE

- Sansa to KL

- Jon to the Wall

- The 3-Eyed Crow tells Bran to fly

- Robb learns that Eddard is dead

- Jaqen H’ghar offers Arya the coin

- Ser Dontos offers to take Sansa home

- Dany offered to Khal Drogo

REFUSAL OF THE QUEST

- Jon runs away from the Wall to join up with Robb

- Bran tells the 3-Eyed Crow that he can’t fly

- Sansa refuses Ser Dontos

- Arya puts off Jaqen H’ghar

- Dany considers suicide after her marriage

ACCEPTING THE CALL

- Jon returns to the Wall

- Bran flies instead of falls

- Robb calls his banners

- Arya uses her coin

- Sansa accepts Ser Dontos/Littlefinger offer to go home

- Dany rides Khal Drogo

ENTERING THE UNKNOWN

- Jon learns the rules of the NW

- Bran tries to figure out his dreams & visions / heads north of the Wall

- Robb rides South

- Arya enters the House of Black and White

- Sansa becomes Alayne

- Dany learns to live with the Dothraki / heads east after the comet appears

SUPERNATURAL AID

- Bran: Summer / The Cave of the Children of the Forest / Weirwood paste

- Dany: House of the Undying visions (?)/ Dragons

- Jon: Ghost

- Arya: Nymeria

- Robb: Greywind

TALISMAN

- Jon: Longclaw? / Dragon glass

- Dany: Dragons

- Arya: Needle

- Robb: Crown (?)

ALLIES/HELPERS

- Jon: Mormont / Maester Aemon / Sam / Northern Hill Lords / Wildling Lords

- Dany: Jorah / Barristan / Unsullied

- Bran: Jojen / Coldhands / Bloodraven /Children of the Forest

- Arya: Jaqen H’ghar / The Kindly Man/The Waif

- Sansa: The Hound / Littlefinger (?)

- Robb: Catelyn / Bannermen

TESTS & THE SUPREME ORDEAL

- Bran: Getting North

- Robb: Battles / The Crossing of the Twins / The Karstark incident / The Red Wedding (he fails)

- Jon: Ygritte /Time as LC of the NW / The Ides of Marsh

- Arya: Trains at the House of Black and White / her apprenticeship with Izembaro

- Sansa: Intrigue and suffering at KL / beginning to understand The Game at the Eeyrie / ?

- Dany: Learns how to rule in the East / Trek through the Dothraki Sea with Drogon

REWARD AND THE JOURNEY HOME

MASTER OF TWO WORLDS/RESTORING THE WORLD

[kiasyd]

It's a nice discussion, and it's been brought a few times in this forum - for instance, Apple Martini elaborated a similar analysis focused on Jon Snow: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101329-the-monomyth-of-jon-snow/

[Dilecta]

It's a nice discussion, and it's been brought a few times in this forum - for instance, Apple Martini elaborated a similar analysis focused on Jon Snow: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/101329-the-monomyth-of-jon-snow/

Huh. I missed that one. Thanks for pointing me in that direction. Definitely is a much deeper analysis than I've done and includes more of the Hero's Journey steps. Doubt that I really want go that in-depth with all of the possible heroes, but I will surely look into that one.

[TheLostStark]

I think you need to give Jamie another look.

[kiasyd]

I think that the main problem with this approach, is that Campbell's meta-structure is focused in a classical concept - that's why it's so easily applicable to the classics, like LOTR, Star Wars, Beowulf, etc.

ASOAIF has way too many postmodern characteristics and mainly due to it's multiple POV structure it doesn't fit well, unless you focus on a specific angle like Apple did with Jon Snow.

I think you need to give Jamie another look.

I agree, looking to Jaime under Campbell's approach would be interesting.

[MegaAIP]

The story must end as a Hero’s Journey or I just read the books, watched the shows, took part in the boards and just wasted my time.

I can't see in the end a stranger on the throne

[kiasyd]

The story must end as a Hero’s Journey or I just read the books, watched the shows, took part in the boards and just wasted my time.

I can't see in the end a stranger on the throne

"a" stranger or "the" stranger? :devil:

[binga]

I think Bran so far has had the most traditional hero's journey. Basically his story is about discovering a magical power and going off to find a "wizard" (bloodraven) who can teach him how to use his powers to fight "evil" (white walkers). Jon and Dany story arcs are more about adolescents coming of age and dealing with responsibilities that even older and more experienced people would struggle with. Robb's story is a tragedy, Sansa's story is about the loss of innocence, Arya's story deals with the implications of violence and war upon a child.

[binhorde]

I'm not sure it's Martin actively setting out to follow Joseph Cambell's theory, so much that it's the fact that Joseph Campbell is/was right.

It just is the proper way to tell an arc filled story.

I would add, that I actually think Benioff and Weiss did a better job with the "Ordinary World" aspect of that formula for the Starks than Martin did. Martin has them seeing the Night's Watch deserter beheaded and then finding the direwolf pups right away. In the TV version they're at home, together, showing the males, Sansa sewing, Arya disinterested in sewing, and even introducting the Catelyn/Jon angst and story. That's actually a much better representation of the "Ordinary World" part of the forumla than in the books.

[kiasyd]

I'm not sure it's Martin actively setting out to follow Joseph Cambell's theory, so much that it's the fact that Joseph Campbell is/was right.

It just is the proper way to tell an arc filled story.

I would add, that I actually think Benioff and Weiss did a better job with the "Ordinary World" aspect of that formula for the Starks than Martin did. Martin has them seeing the Night's Watch deserter beheaded and then finding the direwolf pups right away. In the TV version they're at home, together, showing the males, Sansa sewing, Arya disinterested in sewing, and even introducting the Catelyn/Jon angst and story. That's actually a much better representation of the "Ordinary World" part of the forumla than in the books.

One doesn't actively try to follow Campbell's monomyth (except for George Lucas, I guess). Campbell identified common patterns in diverse narratives, but that doesn't mean that authors try to follow it.

[Warden of the Cheesy]

"a" stranger or "the" stranger? :devil:

It's hypothesized that Jon may be "The" stranger. It makes sense, although I don't see him on the throne.

I personally thing that Bran, Jaime and Jon are the major heroes. I think Dany is actually headed in the wrong direction and ulitmately becomes one of the primary "villains." My reasoning is rather simple; By the time Dany actually gets to westeros, an Other attack is already underway and she might not be aware of it and will view anyone telling her about the Others as a lie in an attempt to distract her. Either that or she unwittingly burns areas in the south that can still grow some food and ends up making many people starve as a result of her actions.. It shall be interesting, that I can promise you.

[Asha Greyjoy:Feminist Icon]

The story must end as a Hero’s Journey or I just read the books, watched the shows, took part in the boards and just wasted my time.

I can't see in the end a stranger on the throne

Could you see "No Throne" in the end?

How common is this view, btw? The sense that the series is arcing toward a status quo monarchy in place - but with a Good Ruler on the throne?

[binhorde]

One doesn't actively try to follow Campbell's monomyth (except for George Lucas, I guess). Campbell identified common patterns in diverse narratives, but that doesn't mean that authors try to follow it.

Yes, I agree which is why I said Martin isn't actively trying to follow it, because he's not.

[kiasyd]

Yes, I agree which is why I said Martin isn't actively trying to follow it, because he's not.

Ok, I misunderstood your post, sorry about that.

[kiasyd]

Could you see "No Throne" in the end?

How common is this view, btw? The sense that the series is arcing toward a status quo monarchy in place - but with a Good Ruler on the throne?

That's my take about it -"no throne" is the most sensible outcome, but I don't think this is the most popular view.

[Dilecta]

I think you need to give Jamie another look.

Honestly, I never considered Jaime. I can see that his arc has certain HJ elements, but I don't know that I'm sold that he will emerge as a main hero. It definitely bears consideration. :idea:

[Dilecta]

The story must end as a Hero’s Journey or I just read the books, watched the shows, took part in the boards and just wasted my time.

<snip>

Not too long ago, I would have agreed with you. Now, I'm not so sure. I want to see where Martin takes the story. Don't know that I will approve, but I think that even if it doesn't end up in a HJ, I won't feel like I wasted my time. I hope. :worried:

[Lummel]

What I like about the way you've approached this Dilecta is that you are acknowledging that there are multiple heroes or potential heroes in this story. It seems to me with the POV characters that we've got that is more likely to be the case than one character among the lot suddenly emerging the THE ONE HERO to rule them all :laugh:

[Dilecta]

I think that the main problem with this approach, is that Campbell's meta-structure is focused in a classical concept - that's why it's so easily applicable to the classics, like LOTR, Star Wars, Beowulf, etc.

ASOAIF has way too many postmodern characteristics and mainly due to it's multiple POV structure it doesn't fit well, unless you focus on a specific angle like Apple did with Jon Snow.

<snip>

I've always thought that the point of the Monomyth is that it ends up being the story we tell without even realizing it - that for whatever reason, something primal probably, we keep telling the same story over and over again. So unless one deliberately attempts to subvert it (which Martin may be doing), we end up telling the same story.

I think that Martin may be trying to subvert the Monomyth or at least obfuscate who the hero/heroes will be by throwing so many of them at us. Still I don't think he can totally subvert it without some real effort. There's something in us that makes us tell the same story over and over again.

[Dilecta]

I'm not sure it's Martin actively setting out to follow Joseph Cambell's theory, so much that it's the fact that Joseph Campbell is/was right.

It just is the proper way to tell an arc filled story.

I would add, that I actually think Benioff and Weiss did a better job with the "Ordinary World" aspect of that formula for the Starks than Martin did. Martin has them seeing the Night's Watch deserter beheaded and then finding the direwolf pups right away. In the TV version they're at home, together, showing the males, Sansa sewing, Arya disinterested in sewing, and even introducting the Catelyn/Jon angst and story. That's actually a much better representation of the "Ordinary World" part of the forumla than in the books.

I agree with all of this, except, I don't necessarily think it is about being the "proper" way to tell the story - I think there is just something across time and culture that makes people tell this same basic story. I think there is some elemental, primal, fundamental truth we keep reminding ourselves of by telling the story.

And definitely agree about the Show vs Book treatment of the "Ordinary World".