Re: Wherabouts of Ice during Robert's Rebellion; How did Ned reclaim the sword for himself after Rickard's death?

[Sansa's Moonblood]

Hi All,

Apologies in advance as this may have a simple answer. It is also a long first post for a relatively minor detail, you have been warned.

Where exactly was Ice during Robert’s Rebellion? We know that Rickard was called by the Mad King to answer for his son’s crime of conspiring to murder the crown prince. We also know he requested a trial by combat. Presumably he was intending to fight with Ice, the Stark Lord’s sword (say that three times quickly). Since he died in King’s Landing, what happened to Ice? How did Eddard retrieve it and where was it in the interim?

The type of response that I’m not looking for here is reasoning as to why Ice would not be there (e.g Rickard could have expected to re-swear an oath and go home, he wasn’t expecting the other nobles to be killed etc). On the balance of probabilities it would be highly unlikely that the Lord of Winterfell would leave home for a several month round trip without bringing his sword. That is even if you were to disregard the chance - however small Rickard might have thought it to be - that there could be a trial by combat. We have to assume Ice is with him in King’s Landing.

The simplest answer would be that Ned reclaimed it during the Sack of King’s Landing, but that isn’t an option that I’m comfortable with. Given how often Ned thinks of the past and the insights we have into the other Starks’ thought processes, it would seem strange for no one to have mentioned the reclamation of such an esteemed family heirloom whilst overthrowing the royal family. At one stage Sansa is disgusted that Ilyn Payne has her father’s sword (ASOS?), she never makes mention of how the sword has been lost before. Similarly when Robb is making a list of demands to Cersei requesting Ice’s return, it is never mentioned that Ice had previously been lost for any period of time. For plausibility’s sake the Sack of King’s Landing is the absolute latest Ned could have reclaimed it, as surely a regular sword would have stood no chance against Ser Arthur Dayne and Dawn at the Tower of Joy. Logic would dictate that he had it in his possession before then, when he and Robert were ’liberating towns’ on their way South. The Tower of Joy was the very end of the war, I would surmise that it is fair to assume that Ned’s numerous heroic acts during the war were performed with Ice in tow.

The answer I personally lean towards may not be to everyone’s taste. My explanation would be that families’ old Valyrian swords are generally respected throughout Westeros, even during times of war. Someone on the King’s Council - perhaps a character like Varys - would return to Winterfell the family sword along with Brandon and Rickard’s bones. I understand that this idea may be unpopular as Eddard and Robert were in open rebellion against the throne; Aerys’ council had deteriorated at this point to men who had no respect for tradition, such as Rossart. Nevertheless, this is the only explanation that makes sense to me without a concrete canonical answer.

Jorah brought dishonour to the Mormonts and left Longclaw behind him. Tyrion also suggests returning Ice to Robb, who is partaking in a similar open rebellion to Eddard’s years prior. Tyrion mentions that he is unhappy with Ice in Ilyn’s possession. We also know how much it irked Tywin that the Lannisters had lost their great sword whilst many lesser houses had a Valyrian steel sword; with all the gold in Casterly Rock he could not acquire one. Consequently, we know he is pleased giving Widow’s Wail and Oathkeeper to Joffrey and Jaime respectively. This is the main basis of my reasoning of the respect for the swords, as I’m not willing to go searching at the moment (I’m in work!).

Thanks if you’ve read this far. I would very much appreciate any thoughts or potential answers, especially if there is anything canonical.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Did Rikard take Ice with him to King's Landing? I would suspect not.

[glamourweaver]

He would have if he thought Trial by Combat was a remote possibility.

Of course if you believe the Maesters-Conspiracy-Theory, he could have been manipulated into not taking it.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Two handed swords limit the wielder somewhat seriously if the wielder is used to fighting with a shield. If Rickard was used to sword and shield and expected trial by combat I doubt he would have risked the Stark Valyarian steel sword by brining it to King's Landing.

[glamourweaver]

I suppose for appearances sake it could have been sent back with Rickard and Brandon's bones with the message to send Ned to KL to swear fealty now that he was lord - because if it hadn't been sent it would have been too obvious a "turn yourself over for death" order - but it was obvious anyway.

[sertravisredbeard]

Yeah I've seen other people suggest on here that Rickard didn't bring Ice with him to King's Landing. He might have assumed that Aerys wouldn't be crazy enough to kill him and everyone he showed up with. Or he did prepare for that possibility, and didn't want his family's ancestral sword to fall into the hands of the psychopath.

I just thought of another possiblity. Aerys might have confiscated Ice and had plans for it, a la how Tywin melted it down and made two swords out of it. Aerys might have kept it as a symbol of his "vanquishing" of the Lord of Winterfell and his heir. His gloating period just didn't last that long, and during the Sack someone found it. Hell, giving up Ice or other valuable items or information might have been how Pycelle and Varys saved their own skins.

[Stormland's Fury]

I assumed that Ice was only used to execute people anyway and therefore always stayed in Winterfell.

EDIT: But then again Ned brought it with him to KL.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

I always assumed Ned at least had Ice at ToJ to fight Arthur Dayne, though KL was before that. I would guess that Rickard left Ice at Winterfell, so Ned basically had it the whole time.