Jaqen, Rorge and Biter's ability to fit in

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Jaqen, Rorge and Biter have an incredible ability to blend in to a group. This is unusual as:

1) Jaqen is a foreigner from Lorath with colorful hair

2) Rorge has no nose, is cruel and is foul-mouthed

3) Biter has spiked teeth and is basically a feral animal

Yet, somehow, after their escape from chains, they find themselves working for Amory Lorch.

How did that happen? It's never explained.

The last time we saw the three in Arya IV ACoK, they were unwashed escapees from the Night's Watch group heading to the Wall.

Under Amory in Arya VII, they now are washed, have armor and have horses.

Okay, that's weird, but then it happens again.

In Arya VIII, Rorge and Biter simply join the Brave Companions. How did that happen? Again, its never explained. Lorch's men get killed, but Rorge and Biter simply switch sides. How? Yes, Rorge and Biter cruelty is somewhat in line with Brave Companions' personalities, but how would the Brave Companions know that? And beyond that, though, can one simply join a sellsword company like the Brave Companions on a whim? Why would they let them in? Why not Lorch's other men?

The weirdness continues and Rorge and Biter then lead a band of scorch-earth killers in the Brienne chapters of AFfC. They go beyond what the Brave Companions ever did by killing and burning everything - a whole city in fact. The Brave Companions seemed to focus on septs.

Now, Arya thinks that Jaqen is a wizard and Rorge and Biter are demons. Yes, we know Jaqen is a Faceless Man, but who or what are Rorge and Biter? And what magic do they use to fit in?

[Ser Yo of House Lo]

Well, it's been established that they first managed to join Lorch's men by betraying the Night's Watch men (Specifically Yoren). While the battle was happening Arya handed one of them an axe to escape their imminent doom by fire (The girl has stolen three deaths from the Red God.. remember?). And after the battle, she finds Yoren's body, surrounded by Lannister corpses, but the only wound he seems to have is an axe wound in the back, as well as everyone else having bites taken out of them (This is from Biter)..

And I'd imagine they did something to the same degree but to the Lannisters, or offered information? Maybe gold?

And about the burning cities thing, Arya thinks that they're demons, so they're evidently more evil than the average Joe, maybe they just enjoy violence?

[Mal Malenkirk]

No magic. Rorge and Biter are decent fighters with no morals whatsoever. Such men thrive in the chaos of war, it's that simple.

In Arya VIII, Rorge and Biter simply join the Brave Companions. How did that happen? Again, its never explained. Lorch's men get killed, but Rorge and Biter simply switch sides. How? Yes, Rorge and Biter cruelty is somewhat in line with Brave Companions' personalities, but how would the Brave Companions know that? And beyond that, though, can one simply join a sellsword company like the Brave Companions on a whim? Why would they let them in? Why not Lorch's other men?

Yeah, how could they pass the lenghty screening process imposed by Lorch's or the Brave Companion's human resource department? :lol:

Why would they let them join? To replenish their forces. They have to replace their losses. Why not Lorch's other men? Oh, I'm pretty sure they did recruit other men from Lorch's band, if any were smart enough to switch side promptly.

.

[HexMachina]

We know Rorge and Biter's backgrounds from an SSM. Don't know which one offhand, but basically Rorge ran some.sort of Dog Fighting business in King's Landing and Biter was a fighter there (specifics escape me).

How they joined Lorch's men - betraying the Nights Watch recruits and possibly killing Yoren

How did they join the Mummers? They betrayed Lorch's men and began killing them. They are exactly the sort of men the Mummers want

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

We know Rorge and Biter's backgrounds from an SSM. Don't know which one offhand, but basically Rorge ran some.sort of Dog Fighting business in King's Landing and Biter was a fighter there (specifics escape me).

How they joined Lorch's men - betraying the Nights Watch recruits and possibly killing Yoren

How did they join the Mummers? They betrayed Lorch's men and began killing them. They are exactly the sort of men the Mummers want

It's still a bit odd, though.

Say you're Lorch and you just finish fighting. You find Rorge and Biter standing there with an axe over Yoren's dead body. You let them join you? A noseless brute and a feral spiked teeth monster?

Vargo is a bit more believable because he's crazy, but Rorge and Biter rose to lieutenant status within days.

Then, they're leading what I imagine are a large portion of the Brave Companions: the group breaks off into four groups and Rorge has one of them:

1) Septon Utt (killed by the Brotherhoose)

2) Timeon the Dornishman (only two people went with him - Pyg and Shagwell, killed by Brienne)

3) Urswyk the Faithful

4) Rorge and Biter (killed by Brienne and Gendry)

I seems to me that they have some sort of magical ability to blend right in.

[The Mountain That Flies]

No magic. Rorge and Biter are decent fighters with no morals whatsoever. Such men thrive in the chaos of war, it's that simple.

.

Exactly. There's nothing magic about any of this. Amory Lorch's main job was raiding the Riverlands and terrifying the populace. In Rorge and Biter he found two perfect candidates for that. Did he trust them? Absolutely not. But he may have been using a dimmer version of Tywin's "For every task there's a tool, and for every tool there's a task" philosophy.

As for the Brave Companions, they seem to be rejects from other companies or groups, so I doubt there's a very thorough process on establishing a man's trustworthiness. Like Lorch, Hoat would value enormous and terrifying men, and like Lorch probably thought he could control Rorge and Biter.

As for how Rorge wound up leading a whole group of Companions, his experience as a pit fight organizer would give him some degree of leadership experience, which most of the others do not have. He would have more confidence in his own decision making, and that confidence alone can go a long way towards getting men to follow you. Plus, unlike many of the others, he is a Westerosi native, and his local knowledge may have helped his claim.

[bemused]

Rorge ran dog fights in KL , Biter was an urchin/orphan that Rorge snatched off the streets and raised ferally to fight with the dogs. I,too , forget which SSM ( it was from some years ago , maybe 2006 ..), but that's as specific as GRRM got.

There's no evidence of magic around them, they're just cruel and bestial. It doesn't surprise me at all that they'd fit right in.. Lorch's men would know that most of Yoren's recruits were criminals to begin with.

Rorge and Biter would probably know Jaqen can work a glamour ,at least - and that's why Arya notices fear on Rorge's face when she says she's looking for Jaqen ( No cause for fear if you can work a bit of magic yourself ) ...Rorge and Biter are not bathed and cleaned up.. only Jaqen is. Rorge has scavenged a helmet. ... Jaqen is the outlier ,here. For me, there's a question as to how quickly they all joined up with Lorch ( but that's another story)

Let's not forget it was Lorch who murdered Rhaegar's young daughter in such a brutal fashion , so they'd fit in with him in terms of morality , if not appearance. ...and even their appearance wouldn't make them stand out especially, among the bloody Mummers.( All outlandish to Westerosi eyes.)

In ACoK neither the Blackfish nor Tyrion make much distinction between Gregor's, Lorch's or Vargo's tactics...

Catelyn was horrorstruck. “Darry was only a child.”

“Aye, and the last of his line as well. The boy would have brought a fine ransom, but what does gold mean to a frothing dog like Gregor Clegane? That beast’s head would make a noble gift for all the people of the realm, I vow. .... .... Ser Amory Lorch is in the field as well, and some sellsword out of Qohor who’d sooner maim a man than kill him. I’ve seen what they leave behind them. Whole villages put to the torch, women raped and mutilated, butchered children left unburied to draw wolves and wild dogs... it would sicken even the dead.” ... (Blackfish)

“A lordling down from the Trident, says your father’s men burned his keep, raped his wife, and killed all his peasants.”

“I believe they call that war.” Tyrion smelled Gregor Clegane’s work, or that of Ser Amory Lorch or his father’s other pet hellhound, the Qohorik. ..(Tyrion)

I don't see where R&B were made lieutenants within days.. they entered Harrenhall at the end of Lorch's column.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

There's no evidence of magic around them, they're just cruel and bestial. It doesn't surprise me at all that they'd fit right in.. Lorch's men would know that most of Yoren's recruits were criminals to begin with.

Rorge and Biter would probably know Jaqen can work a glamour ,at least - and that's why Arya notices fear on Rorge's face when she says she's looking for Jaqen ( No cause for fear if you can work a bit of magic yourself ) ...Rorge and Biter are not bathed and cleaned up.. only Jaqen is. Rorge has scavenged a helmet. ... Jaqen is the outlier ,here. For me, there's a question as to how quickly they all joined up with Lorch ( but that's another story)

Let's not forget it was Lorch who murdered Rhaegar's young daughter in such a brutal fashion , so they'd fit in with him in terms of morality , if not appearance. ...and even their appearance wouldn't make them stand out especially, among the bloody Mummers.( All outlandish to Westerosi eyes.)

In ACoK neither the Blackfish nor Tyrion make much distinction between Gregor's, Lorch's or Vargo's tactics...

I don't see where R&B were made lieutenants within days.. they entered Harrenhall at the end of Lorch's column.

Lorch, the Mountain and Vargo are all evil, but there are subtle differences.

Lorch we find burning villages and he tries to negotiate with Yoren.

The Mountain we find brutally torturing people and trying to find gold. He in described as far and beyond the worst.

Hoat and the Brave Companions we find sacking septs, killing septons and raping septas.

Rorge and Biter we find just destroying everything and killing everyone.

With Rorge and Biter being so fearless, I do wonder what scared them about Jaqen. Why didn't they kill Jaqen in cells? What was their agreement? It's mysterious.

When I say it seems Rorge and Biter were lieutenants, I mean after they leave Lorch's service for the Brave Companions. They seem to immediately befriend the big players: Hoat, Urswyk, Shagwell, Timeon, Utt. And Rorge seems to be in on the share of Harrenhall.

Keep in mind, Jamie runs in Urswyk's dozen in ASoS, which seems to be Urswyk, Rorge, Timeon, 2 Ibbenese, 2 Lyseni, 2 Summer Islanders, 2 Dothraki and another Dornishman. Urswyk is leading, but Timeon and Rorge are the other important ones. Rorge has jumped ahead of 9 other Brave Companions who have been with the company for months if not years. An impressive rise.

[HexMachina]

Might = Right among the Brave Companions

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Might = Right among the Brave Companions

Does it, though? They are a weird group. Shagwell, Timeon and Pyg prove to be horrible fighters. And I can't imagine Septon Utt and a morbidly obese Dothraki were any good.

I suppose that may explain why Rorge and Biter rise so quickly - they are the only ones who can fight.

[bemused]

Might = Right among the Brave Companions

I think this is right , but maybe might is synonymous with viciousness in this case.

SS .. perhaps "rise" is the wrong word ... perhaps several of the other BCs fear Rorge and Biter the way they fear Jaqen.

As to their relationship to Jaqen , I doubt they were kept with him in the black cells. GRRM didn't say he was part of their dog fighting operation. They may not have been arrested at the same time...etc. With Yoren they were all chained separately . I imagine it would have been the same in the black cells.

I don't want to sidetrack your thread , but I think Jaqen was perhaps actually a criminal who should have died (or come close to it ) in the fire. They may not even have bothered to help him to escape. I think this is the point where a FM takes on Jaqen's appearance. So when he appears , with no singed hair , no burns and is able to lounge in a hot bath .. I think they'd find it spooky, to say the least.

(Just my particular wrinkle on the situation)

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I think discussion of Jaqen is essential to understand Rorge and Biter.

Why was Jaqen there? To recruit Arya after Syrio put in a good word? Maybe?

Or.....to find Gendry? The whole reason Yoren was still around was because Varys told him to stay for Gendry. Gendry is important for some reason.

Where did Rorge and Biter end up? With Gendry.

[The Kinkslayer]

Biter was Rorge's, and both were scared of Jaqen: a man must be frightening

[Luthien Targaryen]

I don't think that either Ser Amory or Vargo Hoat are terribly bothered about CVs, references or work permits.

"Do you enjoy killing people? Are you any good at it? You are? Excellent! You're hired!" (insert your own lisp...)

[Mal Malenkirk]

Keep in mind, Jamie runs in Urswyk's dozen in ASoS, which seems to be Urswyk, Rorge, Timeon, 2 Ibbenese, 2 Lyseni, 2 Summer Islanders, 2 Dothraki and another Dornishman. Urswyk is leading, but Timeon and Rorge are the other important ones. Rorge has jumped ahead of 9 other Brave Companions who have been with the company for months if not years. An impressive rise.

It's a matter of perception. In a a squad of 12, there's the leader and there's pretty much everybody else. You feel like Rorge has jump as 'second' in command but I really just think he was more vocal than the rest. An impressive rise would actually being in command of a squad of 12, the equivalent of a Sargeant or so. Which in time of war is possible if you have charisma (and scaring the shit out of the others would qualify as charisma in such a group).

In Canada during WWII, there was an underage youth who lied about his age to enroll. He started Normandy as a private, ended up Chief Warrant Officer (highest non-com rank) a few weeks into the invasion even though he was just 17 at the time! Now that's an impressive rise. But in war, promotion can come quickly if losses are heavy and you show you can take the heat.

So I don't make much of Rorge's 'rise'. It only shows he is a minor badass in a serie full of them, it's just not that remarkable,