Did Littlefinger Double Cross The Tyrells?

[Lion Of The Night]

Let's take as our starting point the idea that Littlefinger was working with the Tyrells to kill Joffrey. They wanted him dead, not because he was a little psychopath and might hurt poor Marg, but rather because he could not be controlled. They figured he would go full out Mad King Aerys or worse, but Tommen on the other hand, would be easier to influence.

The plan was, to kill Joffrey, have Tyrion take the blame and be executed, have Sansa spirited off to safety for a few years. Marg marries Tommen and after a while Sansa reapears and is pardoned by the king because she had no bearing o the assassination.

Now why do I think this? Well we know the Tyrells want power. They already have a queen in Marg, but they wanted more. Remember, as far as the rest of westeros knows, Sansa is the heir to the north. Lady O's original plan was to marry Sansa to Willas the heir to Highgarden. If this plan went through, they would have had influence over a huge portion of Westeros. Littlefinger had Harranfall and the Tyrells would have promised him more if he he could get Sansa safe for them.

But Littlefinger is a sneak. He had his own plans. Instead of delivering Sansa to them, he took her for his own purpose. The Tyrells are angry and are quietly making plans to deal with the situation but are afraid of being implicated in the Assassination, so are walking on eggshells.

Any thoughts?

[Slender Aimry Hill]

This would make the Tyrells nicer, and so rather less interesting.

[The Emerald Knight]

Littlefinger primarily cares about Littlefinger. I think he'd willingly backstab anybody for power. Remember, chaos is a laddah!! :P And Petyr Baelish very much means to climb that ladder as long as he can.

[aryagonnakill#2]

GRRM said that the Tyrells didn't have a plan to blame it on anyone, they wanted it to look like Joffrey choked. They did not count on Cersei's insane hatred of Tyrion, or LF's trick with the jousting dwarfs. Because of this that means they did not intend to get Sansa back because she would have still been married to Tyrion.

[In A Coat of Gold]

No. The Tyrells just wanted to look out for Margaery. Leave it to Littlefinger to flip it to his own advantage...and not have any of the blame. The guy is really quite brilliant (while having ridiculous plot armor)

[Eat My Steel]

I think it is more likely that Littlefinger was looking to incriminate Tyrion to rid himself of someone who is a direct threat to Baelish. Tyrion is one of the few people more clever than Littlefinger (as well as Varys who later assists Tyrion's escape) and Tyrion is much more powerfully connected and wealthy. Tyrion represented a major threat to Littlefinger's plotting. Oh and he was also married to Littlefinger's prize: Cat's daughter who looks strikingly like a young Cat and was conveniently wisked away during the distraction of Joffrey's death. If anything he simply used the Tyrells for his own purposes as he uses everybody.

[Rhaenys' kitten]

Littlefinger already double-crossed them when he let the Lannisters know that the Tyrells were planning to marry Sansa to Willas (Sansa told Dontos, who we know was working for Littlefinger by then).

The Tyrells and Littlefinger might have shared a desire to implicate Tyrion, so that Sansa's marriage could later be annulled. Littlefinger clearly tried to push Tyrion into the hotseat by hiring the dwarves, so everyone would know that Tyrion was pissed at Joffrey. Plus Tyrion had all those previous encounters with Joffrey, so he made a convenient scapegoat.

The only remaining question is how/whether Littlefinger suspected they might marry her to Tyrion. They could have married her to Lancel instead, or Tywin himself. Or did Littlefinger think they'd block the Tyrells in some other way?

[Lion Of The Night]

GRRM said that the Tyrells didn't have a plan to blame it on anyone, they wanted it to look like Joffrey choked. They did not count on Cersei's insane hatred of Tyrion, or LF's trick with the jousting dwarfs. Because of this that means they did not intend to get Sansa back because she would have still been married to Tyrion.

Fair enough, perhaps (most likely) the blame going to Tyrion was not planned or even expected. However there is no reason for the Tyrells to give up on their plan to control a huge portion of Westeros just because Tyrion was married to Sansa .

Lady O's plan to marry her to Willas was not because she felt sorry for the girl and wanted her to have a nice life in the gardens. It was a power play. Tywin clearly pointed out how important she was in subduing the North. Lady O's plan was more palatable for all concerned. And the Tyrells don't seem like the type of people to just give up on a plan after a setback.

If this suggested plan, that everyone believes Joffrey just happened to choke, worked, Tyrion easily could have been next.

[Lion Of The Night]

Besides, regardless of whether the plan was specifically to get Tyrion executed, anyone would have cast initial blame to him. His feud with Joffrey was well known. Cersei would have blamed him even if Joffrey actually did choke on some pie.

The Tyrells could have easily played on this to the masses, and houses, to gain more support.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I don't think they were ever in cahoots. It goes against LF's principle of "clean hands".

It's more like LF found out about the Tyrell plot and took advantage of it to get Sansa and incriminate Tyrion. A plot within a plot, if you will

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

The Tyrell plan was to kill Joffrey and either it is passed as an accident or Sansa gets the blame and they probably expected Tyrion to get blamed as well. Lannisters losing Sansa is a win win for the Tyrells as it makes it less likely for the Lannisters to get the north and someone else is blamed. But I also think that it probably crossed their mind that suspicion would fall on Tyrion too who was Sansa's husband and hated Joffrey and had some public confrontations with him. It was also known that he was the black sheep of the family and also better known for cunning than Sansa. So it would be a natural suspicion that they were in it together. So suspicion would probably fall on not only Sansa but Tyrion. Incriminating Sansa burns her as a paper theoretically but it was mostly about having someone else to take the blame.

Littlefinger's plan was to frame Tyrion as he wanted to get rid of Tyrion who knew about the dagger and was smart. He also knew that Lannisters eating each other would bring more chaos and destabilization. He also wanted to continue gaining favor with the Tyrells which he already did with working for the alliance, passing rumours about Joffrey. LF appearing as cooperating with you and being on your side and someone who you can cooperate with in plots is a part of his designs on its own. And most importantly gain Sansa which he needs as a tool for his power plays and for creepy desires (daughter with Catelyn he never had young Catelyn he never had). He used Dontos to snitch previously about Willas marriage to the Lannisters. In this case instead of the Sansa paper being burned as the Tyrells expected it is to be used by Littlefinger's designs. Additionally while the Tyrells probably expected that Tyrion getting blamed is a possibility, framing Tyrion and the subsequent self destruction of the Lannisters that benefited LF plans certainly did not benefit the Tyrells as they had to deal with Cersei. LF plans for chaos unleashed from the assassination were different than the Tyrell plans.

Littlefinger is like Roose Bolton he is always double crossing you even when he does what you want, it is donje for his own reasons and not for your benefit and done in a way that benefits him mostly and he would destroy you for his benefit at first opportunity. Additionally Littlefinger always has plans on how to use the trust you give him to betray you and for his own benefit. So LF gifts are poisonous, even the trust he gains by serving you is in reality a double cross. So LF plans with using Sansa, or framing Tyrion or gaining good faith trust from the Tyrells probably aren't going to be used for the Tyrells own good.

[Pod The Impaler]

Let's take as our starting point the idea that Littlefinger was working with the Tyrells to kill Joffrey. They wanted him dead, not because he was a little psychopath and might hurt poor Marg, but rather because he could not be controlled. They figured he would go full out Mad King Aerys or worse, but Tommen on the other hand, would be easier to influence.

The plan was, to kill Joffrey, have Tyrion take the blame and be executed, have Sansa spirited off to safety for a few years. Marg marries Tommen and after a while Sansa reapears and is pardoned by the king because she had no bearing o the assassination.

Now why do I think this? Well we know the Tyrells want power. They already have a queen in Marg, but they wanted more. Remember, as far as the rest of westeros knows, Sansa is the heir to the north. Lady O's original plan was to marry Sansa to Willas the heir to Highgarden. If this plan went through, they would have had influence over a huge portion of Westeros. Littlefinger had Harranfall and the Tyrells would have promised him more if he he could get Sansa safe for them.

But Littlefinger is a sneak. He had his own plans. Instead of delivering Sansa to them, he took her for his own purpose. The Tyrells are angry and are quietly making plans to deal with the situation but are afraid of being implicated in the Assassination, so are walking on eggshells.

Any thoughts?

Well, LF already screwed the Tyrells once, since he tipped off the Lannisters that they were planning to take Sansa to Highgarden to marry Willas.

I would not put it past him to have not told the Tyrells that he was planning to make off with Sansa when Joffrey died.

If the Tyrells are suspicious that Sansa "disappeared", since they were in on the plot to kill Joffrey, there would be only 1 suspect who could be hiding her - Littlefinger.

That leaves only 3 possibilities, the latter 2 involving LF cheating them:

1 - The Tyrells know Baelish has her, and for some reason do not care (maybe they made a deal with him on this issue). Their anger towards Sansa is, of course, feigned.

2 - They did not know Baelish would steal her away, and are annoyed at him. They may even be seeking after her as well, with the Vale as a prime target.

3 - They think Baelish killed her as a loose end (just like Dontos), accepting her death asa necessary protection of their secret - but would be pissed off if they knew she was alive.

[Eat My Steel]

Littlefinger's plan was to frame Tyrion as he wanted to get rid of Tyrion who knew about the dagger and was smart. He also knew that Lannisters eating each other would bring more chaos and destabilization.

Thank you for bringing up this point. I had thought of it before and forgot to mention it. Littlefinger has already tried to remove Tyrion from the game by incriminating him to Cat for Bran's murder...

[Eat My Steel]

That leaves only 3 possibilities, the latter 2 involving LF cheating them:

1 - The Tyrells know Baelish has her, and for some reason do not care (maybe they made a deal with him on this issue). Their anger towards Sansa is, of course, feigned.

2 - They did not know Baelish would steal her away, and are annoyed at him. They may even be seeking after her as well, with the Vale as a prime target.

3 - They think Baelish killed her as a loose end (just like Dontos), accepting her death asa necessary protection of their secret - but would be pissed off if they knew she was alive.

#1 here

[Dya of Oldstones]

The Tyrell plan was to kill Joffrey and either it is passed as an accident or Sansa gets the blame and they probably expected Tyrion to get blamed as well. Lannisters losing Sansa is a win win for the Tyrells as it makes it less likely for the Lannisters to get the north and someone else is blamed. But I also think that it probably crossed their mind that suspicion would fall on Tyrion too who was Sansa's husband and hated Joffrey and had some public confrontations with him. It was also known that he was the black sheep of the family and also better known for cunning than Sansa. So it would be a natural suspicion that they were in it together. So suspicion would probably fall on not only Sansa but Tyrion. Incriminating Sansa burns her as a paper theoretically but it was mostly about having someone else to take the blame.

Littlefinger's plan was to frame Tyrion as he wanted to get rid of Tyrion who knew about the dagger and was smart. He also knew that Lannisters eating each other would bring more chaos and destabilization. He also wanted to continue gaining favor with the Tyrells which he already did with working for the alliance, passing rumours about Joffrey. LF appearing as cooperating with you and being on your side and someone who you can cooperate with in plots is a part of his designs on its own. And most importantly gain Sansa which he needs as a tool for his power plays and for creepy desires (daughter with Catelyn he never had young Catelyn he never had). He used Dontos to snitch previously about Willas marriage to the Lannisters. In this case instead of the Sansa paper being burned as the Tyrells expected it is to be used by Littlefinger's designs. Additionally while the Tyrells probably expected that Tyrion getting blamed is a possibility, framing Tyrion and the subsequent self destruction of the Lannisters that benefited LF plans certainly did not benefit the Tyrells as they had to deal with Cersei. LF plans for chaos unleashed from the assassination were different than the Tyrell plans.

Littlefinger is like Roose Bolton he is always double crossing you even when he does what you want, it is done for his own reasons and not for your benefit and done in a way that benefits him mostly and he would destroy you for his benefit at first opportunity. Additionally Littlefinger always has plans on how to use the trust you give him to betray you and for his own benefit. So LF gifts are poisonous, even the trust he gains by serving you is in reality a double cross. So LF plans with using Sansa, or framing Tyrion or gaining good faith trust from the Tyrells probably aren't going to be used for the Tyrells own good.

ITA, especially the bolded.

I don't think the Tyrells trust him either, and the higher he goes on his ladder of chaos, the harder the fall when someone kicks the ladder out from under him. While I'm one of the ones who thinks Sansa may play a major role in bringing him down, QoT could hatch something of her own.

[urielseptim]

Can anyone think of anyone that Littlefinger hasn't betrayed? I mean, most of the time he does it for power, sometimes it seems just for kicks

[Lion Of The Night]

The Tyrell plan was to kill Joffrey and either it is passed as an accident or Sansa gets the blame and they probably expected Tyrion to get blamed as well. Lannisters losing Sansa is a win win for the Tyrells as it makes it less likely for the Lannisters to get the north and someone else is blamed. But I also think that it probably crossed their mind that suspicion would fall on Tyrion too who was Sansa's husband and hated Joffrey and had some public confrontations with him. It was also known that he was the black sheep of the family and also better known for cunning than Sansa. So it would be a natural suspicion that they were in it together. So suspicion would probably fall on not only Sansa but Tyrion. Incriminating Sansa burns her as a paper theoretically but it was mostly about having someone else to take the blame.

But what was the benefit of implicating Sansa? Yes it is an easy target, but it does no one any good. They planed to have her have a high position at court by marrying the heir of Highgarden. Killing her off gets them nothing. Actually less than nothing. Roose Bolton holds the North now, and he is a Lanister tool. Keeping Sansa alive keeps the Bolton/Lanister control of the north limited. Besides the people of the north are more likely to side with Sansa, a true Stark, than Bolton who betrayed Robb. And whoever helped Sansa will have the gratitude of both her and the people she may lead.

Really the only ones who have a real reason to want her dead or implicated in the assassination plot is the Bolton/Lanister party because with Sansa gone, FakeArya is the last heir.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

But what was the benefit of implicating Sansa? Yes it is an easy target, but it does no one any good. They planed to have her have a high position at court by marrying the heir of Highgarden. Killing her off gets them nothing. Actually less than nothing. Roose Bolton holds the North now, and he is a Lanister tool. Keeping Sansa alive keeps the Bolton/Lanister control of the north limited. Besides the people of the north are more likely to side with Sansa, a true Stark, than Bolton who betrayed Robb. And whoever helped Sansa will have the gratitude of both her and the people she may lead.

Really the only ones who have a real reason to want her dead or implicated in the assassination plot is the Bolton/Lanister party because with Sansa gone, FakeArya is the last heir.

The benefits of implicating Sansa is if there is suspicion of foul play to have someone to blame for the assassination other than the Tyrells. For which Sansa being naive, isolated and weak and looking to trust someone other than the Lannisters (such as Dontos and the Tyrells) and also having plenty of motive is easier to play that role with the hairnet than others. She makes a more convenient target to prosecute too from both the Lannisters and Tyrells since she is an heir of a defeated kingdom rather than someone more powerful and in theory accepted like Oberyn and Dorne.

Since this is after their plot to marry her to Highgarden failed and the Lannisters married her to their own I also assume that they wouldn't mind the fact that a Lannister couldn't marry her and have a chance to claim the power of the north since she is going to die for the assassination and suspicion would probably fall on Tyrion too.

[Janicia]

I think the Tyrells' Plan A was for Joffrey to appear to have choked as GRRM said, but they definitely laid the groundwork for Tyrion and Sansa to be their Plan B scapegoats. Most of the point of poisoning Joffrey at the wedding was to ensure that they had a ridiculous number of witnesses that would be convinced the Tyrells were innocent. If Joffrey had died in a more private setting, the Tyrells would have looked more guilty in the court of public opinion, since they're the biggest beneficiaries of replacing Joffrey with Tommen.

When Littlefinger and Olenna decided to poison Joffrey; Olenna must have been wary about trusting Littlefinger. What if he tipped Cersei off to the attempt? Heck, Littlefinger probably considered it. So Olenna tells Littlefinger that she can't possibly smuggle the poison into the wedding. Littlefinger counters that he'll get Sansa to smuggle it in. Olenna agrees to that plan because now even if Littlefinger tips Cersei off, the Tyrells will look clean and they have a good scapegoat.

I don't think the Tyrells knew that Littlefinger was planning to spirit Sansa away, but when they agreed to using Sansa as the vehicle for the poison, they were willing to throw Sansa away. And since the Tyrells knew that Littlefinger had a connection to, and interest in Sansa, they must suspect that he took her.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

ITA, especially the bolded.

I don't think the Tyrells trust him either, and the higher he goes on his ladder of chaos, the harder the fall when someone kicks the ladder out from under him. While I'm one of the ones who thinks Sansa may play a major role in bringing him down, QoT could hatch something of her own.

I definitely expect Sansa to play a role in bringing him down. But funny thing there is in addition to QoT also Tyrion still remaining as player of the game and even Lady Stoneheart. Now that LF couldn't expect. At this point it is more of a question of who than if.