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Solution to the Flint Enigma


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According to ADWD, the Flints of the Mountains claim they are the first Flints. According to the RPG, the Flints of Widow's Watch are the oldest. Who's right?




Theory: House Flint of the Mountains and House Flint of Widow's Watch have nothing to do with each other.



The Night's King was claimed to have been a Flint. The NK was also claimed to have been a Woodfoot, a Norrey, a Bolton, and a Stark. These are all Houses whose lands once bordered the Wall. So when the NK is claimed to be a Flint, they are probably talking about the Mountain Flints. So the Mountain Flints are at least 7900 years old. So they are probably not a cadet branch of Widow's Watch.



So are the WW Flints a cadet branch of the Mountain Flints? It seems probable that the clans raided the North in the past. Would the Flints really raid the kingdom of their relatives? And why would a Flint end up in the other side of the continent in the first place? And, most importantly, the RPG (which has semicanonical authority) says that the WW Flints are the senior branch of the Flints, meaning they are not descended from Clan Flint.



But the RPG just says the Flints of WW are the senior branch of the Flint family. It does not say that the Flints of the mountains are a Flint of WW cadet branch, it just says that it has at least one cadet branch. The Flints of Flint's Finger are probably a cadet branch of the WW Flints, but not the Mountain Flints.



We do have instances where unrelated Houses have the same name, such as House Wells of Dorne and House Wells of the North.


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Jon does state that the mountain Clans do not use the title of Lord amongst themselves, it would be a title conferred on them by outsiders. It's probable that the Widow's Watch house descends from the clans, but where accepted as lords/nobility. It would make them a "proper" house, and keep in step with the fact that the Flints and other "rougher" groups (south and north of the Wall) refer to each other with the title "The" (The Stark, The Mance).


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Jon does state that the mountain Clans do not use the title of Lord amongst themselves, it would be a title conferred on them by outsiders. It's probable that the Widow's Watch house descends from the clans, but where accepted as lords/nobility. It would make them a "proper" house, and keep in step with the fact that the Flints and other "rougher" groups (south and north of the Wall) refer to each other with the title "The" (The Stark, The Mance).

The Flints of Widow's Watch is at least 4000 years old.

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The Flints of Widow's Watch is at least 4000 years old.

Right? And you are speculating that the Flints from the mountain have a history of Seven thousand and Nine hundred years. I'm saying that a link can be drawn to connect the Flints of Widow's Watch and Clan Flint. If the Clan is not considered proper nobility while the House is it may explain why the latter is said to be senior branch and not the former. Either way, I don't necessarily trust this RPG book implicitly.

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Right? And you are speculating that the Flints from the mountain have a history of Seven thousand and Nine hundred years. I'm saying that a link can be drawn to connect the Flints of Widow's Watch and Clan Flint. If the Clan is not considered proper nobility while the House is it may explain why the latter is said to be senior branch and not the former. Either way, I don't necessarily trust this RPG book implicitly.

The Flints of the Mountains would have to go through the Starks to reach Widow's Watch. We know the Mountain Clans and the Starks fought.

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The Flints of the Mountains would have to go through the Starks to reach Widow's Watch. We know the Mountain Clans and the Starks fought.

??? And? People go over to their enemy in hopes of a reward, or a group keeps two feet in both camps. Or we don't know the exact date when the Clans were brought under the power of the Starks, nor do we know an exact date when these Flints established themselves at Widow's Watch. Perhaps prior to the four thousand years, numbers that you supply, the mountain Clans pledged allegiance to Winterfell and later a member of the clan was raised to Lord for distinguished deeds.

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We only know that the clansmen claim to be the first Flints. The fact that Jon uses the word "claim" indicates that the clansmen are probably considered to not be the first Flints.

It doesn't make sense at all.

The Starks claim to be descendants of Bran the Builder, the Lannisters claim to be descendants of Lann the clever. Does this means that they aren't?

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The Mountain Flints are likely the oldest branch, but the Flints of Widow's Watch are the most powerful, populous and most wealthy branch.



Thus both claims can be true.



The Clans are almost certainly proto-Northmen, much like the Skagosi and Crannogmen. They probably resemble the way of life that all of the Firstmen followed, before the more civilized areas formed noble Houses and a more structured society.

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??? And? People go over to their enemy in hopes of a reward, or a group keeps two feet in both camps. Or we don't know the exact date when the Clans were brought under the power of the Starks, nor do we know an exact date when these Flints established themselves at Widow's Watch. Perhaps prior to the four thousand years, numbers that you supply, the mountain Clans pledged allegiance to Winterfell and later a member of the clan was raised to Lord for distinguished deeds.

4000 years claim basis:

1. The evidence for a Kingdom of the White Knife: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117547-kings-of-the-white-knife-northern-heraldry-and-toponymy/

2. The Kingdom of the WK was conquered before the Andal invasion of Moat Cailin, which was around 4000 years ago

3. The Flints were WK bannermen

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