Game Of Thrones Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 According to ADWD, the Flints of the Mountains claim they are the first Flints. According to the RPG, the Flints of Widow's Watch are the oldest. Who's right? Theory: House Flint of the Mountains and House Flint of Widow's Watch have nothing to do with each other. The Night's King was claimed to have been a Flint. The NK was also claimed to have been a Woodfoot, a Norrey, a Bolton, and a Stark. These are all Houses whose lands once bordered the Wall. So when the NK is claimed to be a Flint, they are probably talking about the Mountain Flints. So the Mountain Flints are at least 7900 years old. So they are probably not a cadet branch of Widow's Watch. So are the WW Flints a cadet branch of the Mountain Flints? It seems probable that the clans raided the North in the past. Would the Flints really raid the kingdom of their relatives? And why would a Flint end up in the other side of the continent in the first place? And, most importantly, the RPG (which has semicanonical authority) says that the WW Flints are the senior branch of the Flints, meaning they are not descended from Clan Flint. But the RPG just says the Flints of WW are the senior branch of the Flint family. It does not say that the Flints of the mountains are a Flint of WW cadet branch, it just says that it has at least one cadet branch. The Flints of Flint's Finger are probably a cadet branch of the WW Flints, but not the Mountain Flints. We do have instances where unrelated Houses have the same name, such as House Wells of Dorne and House Wells of the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Jon does state that the mountain Clans do not use the title of Lord amongst themselves, it would be a title conferred on them by outsiders. It's probable that the Widow's Watch house descends from the clans, but where accepted as lords/nobility. It would make them a "proper" house, and keep in step with the fact that the Flints and other "rougher" groups (south and north of the Wall) refer to each other with the title "The" (The Stark, The Mance). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 Jon does state that the mountain Clans do not use the title of Lord amongst themselves, it would be a title conferred on them by outsiders. It's probable that the Widow's Watch house descends from the clans, but where accepted as lords/nobility. It would make them a "proper" house, and keep in step with the fact that the Flints and other "rougher" groups (south and north of the Wall) refer to each other with the title "The" (The Stark, The Mance). The Flints of Widow's Watch is at least 4000 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Q: Who is right.A: The books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 The Flints of Widow's Watch is at least 4000 years old. Right? And you are speculating that the Flints from the mountain have a history of Seven thousand and Nine hundred years. I'm saying that a link can be drawn to connect the Flints of Widow's Watch and Clan Flint. If the Clan is not considered proper nobility while the House is it may explain why the latter is said to be senior branch and not the former. Either way, I don't necessarily trust this RPG book implicitly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 Q: Who is right. A: The books. 1. RPG has semi-canon authority 2. The Flints of the Mountains claim to be the first Flints Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 Right? And you are speculating that the Flints from the mountain have a history of Seven thousand and Nine hundred years. I'm saying that a link can be drawn to connect the Flints of Widow's Watch and Clan Flint. If the Clan is not considered proper nobility while the House is it may explain why the latter is said to be senior branch and not the former. Either way, I don't necessarily trust this RPG book implicitly. The Flints of the Mountains would have to go through the Starks to reach Widow's Watch. We know the Mountain Clans and the Starks fought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 1. RPG has semi-canon authority 2. The Flints of the Mountains claim to be the first Flints The books are canon, not just semi-canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 The books are canon, not just semi-canon. Yes, and the Flints of the Mountains claim to be the original Flints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Yes, and the Flints of the Mountains claim to be the original Flints. Yet it is the only canon we have. So there is no reason to doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 Yet it is the only canon we have. So there is no reason to doubt it. We only know that the clansmen claim to be the first Flints. The fact that Jon uses the word "claim" indicates that the clansmen are probably considered to not be the first Flints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 The Flints of the Mountains would have to go through the Starks to reach Widow's Watch. We know the Mountain Clans and the Starks fought. ??? And? People go over to their enemy in hopes of a reward, or a group keeps two feet in both camps. Or we don't know the exact date when the Clans were brought under the power of the Starks, nor do we know an exact date when these Flints established themselves at Widow's Watch. Perhaps prior to the four thousand years, numbers that you supply, the mountain Clans pledged allegiance to Winterfell and later a member of the clan was raised to Lord for distinguished deeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 We only know that the clansmen claim to be the first Flints. The fact that Jon uses the word "claim" indicates that the clansmen are probably considered to not be the first Flints. It doesn't make sense at all. The Starks claim to be descendants of Bran the Builder, the Lannisters claim to be descendants of Lann the clever. Does this means that they aren't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 The Mountain Flints are likely the oldest branch, but the Flints of Widow's Watch are the most powerful, populous and most wealthy branch. Thus both claims can be true. The Clans are almost certainly proto-Northmen, much like the Skagosi and Crannogmen. They probably resemble the way of life that all of the Firstmen followed, before the more civilized areas formed noble Houses and a more structured society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 ??? And? People go over to their enemy in hopes of a reward, or a group keeps two feet in both camps. Or we don't know the exact date when the Clans were brought under the power of the Starks, nor do we know an exact date when these Flints established themselves at Widow's Watch. Perhaps prior to the four thousand years, numbers that you supply, the mountain Clans pledged allegiance to Winterfell and later a member of the clan was raised to Lord for distinguished deeds. 4000 years claim basis: 1. The evidence for a Kingdom of the White Knife: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117547-kings-of-the-white-knife-northern-heraldry-and-toponymy/ 2. The Kingdom of the WK was conquered before the Andal invasion of Moat Cailin, which was around 4000 years ago 3. The Flints were WK bannermen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 The Mountain Flints are likely the oldest branch, but the Flints of Widow's Watch are the most powerful, populous and most wealthy branch. Senior means older, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 When contradictions appear the books are right, and the other material is wrong. So the Mountain Clan Flints are the oldest ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game Of Thrones Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 When contradictions appear the books are right, and the other material is wrong. So the Mountain Clan Flints are the oldest ones. They "claim" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salafi Stannis Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Q: Who is right. A: The books. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiko Dragonhorn Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 Yet it is the only canon we have. So there is no reason to doubt it. Words are wind. There is always reason to doubt "factual" statements in the books... often things are presented through lies first. That said... in this case I think the mountain flints are first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.