What if Joffrey Died

[Dream Wind]

I was thinking what if joffrey had died when all was well due to some weird "hunting" accident or anything actually would sansa have married tommen as was the custom those days like in the case of Ned and Brandon or or would they have just married arya and tommen and sansa marries some one else what would go through sansa then super jealous of arya right?? Or marry some would be king 5 years younger like margeary the gold digging w***e

[Pod The Impaler]

What, like Nymeria bit him and the wound infected and he died?

Or do you mean later, after the war began ?

[Septa Mordane]

Ned still would have found out the truth about Tommen and Myrcella's parentage. He wouldn't let his daughter marry into that.

[DeathYon]

If Joffrey died before all the shit with Ned and the Lannisters, Sansa would have beeen betrothed to Tommen.

Although, with that said, Ned would still find out about Tommen + Myrcella's parentage and would call the marriage off.

What would happen from there is what I find more interesting.

Ned would then try to accuse Cersei of incest and fail, but instead of dying he would be sent to the wall.

He'd then go on Jeor's ranging and hopefully survive the journey back to Castle Black with either Sam or Grenn + Edd.

The NW would most likely have made Ned LC after the battle with the Wildings.

This would have been nice.

[juanml82]

Ned still would have found out the truth about Tommen and Myrcella's parentage. He wouldn't let his daughter marry into that.

Or maybe he wouldn't find out. Sansa wouldn't have felt in love with the plump little boy, she wouldn't argue with Arya in front of her father and Ned wouldn't have realized in time.

Ned doesn't confront Cersei nor claims Stannis . Maybe he does manage to become Regent

[DeathYon]

Or maybe he wouldn't find out. Sansa wouldn't have felt in love with the plump little boy, she wouldn't argue with Arya in front of her father and Ned wouldn't have realized in time.

Ned doesn't confront Cersei nor claims Stannis . Maybe he does manage to become Regent

It's hard to tell.

I was considering the 'butterfly' effect stuff as well, but Ned discovering the Lannister kid's true parentage seems the most likely.

[Septa Mordane]

Or maybe he wouldn't find out. Sansa wouldn't have felt in love with the plump little boy, she wouldn't argue with Arya in front of her father and Ned wouldn't have realized in time.

Ned doesn't confront Cersei nor claims Stannis . Maybe he does manage to become Regent

Ned's investigation into Jon Arryn's death would have brought him to the same conclusions no matter what. Plus, Littlefinger was playing him the whole time, Joffrey's death would not change that.

IIRC, Sansa says something like, "Joffrey is nothing like his father". But Ned had already figured everything out by that point, and was already planning to send her back to Winterfell. So no, I don't think this would change anything.

[morticia]

Ned would still be alive, but would be sent to the wall. This was Cersei's intention until Joffrey decided he wanted to lop his head of for funsies.

Yes Sansa would marry Tommen, as Cersei would still want to keep her as a hostage.

Sansa would probably still be blind to the corruption of the Lannisters, and would have had no need to run away.

[morticia]

Ned would still be alive, but would be sent to the wall. This was Cersei's intention until Joffrey decided he wanted to lop his head of for funsies.

Yes Sansa would marry Tommen, as Cersei would still want to keep her as a hostage.

Sansa would probably still be blind to the corruption of the Lannisters, and would have had no need to run away.

And Arya would still probably run away, after her father is sent to the night's watch.

[juanml82]

Ned's investigation into Jon Arryn's death would have brought him to the same conclusions no matter what. Plus, Littlefinger was playing him the whole time, Joffrey's death would not change that.

IIRC, Sansa says something like, "Joffrey is nothing like his father". But Ned had already figured everything out by that point, and was already planning to send her back to Winterfell. So no, I don't think this would change anything.

Sansa's words made Ned add two plus two. Up until then, he had the information but didn't know what to make of it.

Ned was sending the girls away because of the war that was boiling down due Catelyn's arrest of Tyrion. If Sansa doesn't say Joffrey is nothing like his father, Ned is still wondering why Jon Arryn was keeping track of the bastards and doesn't talk to Cersei. If Cersei still has Robert killed on schedule, then Robert appoints Ned as Tommen's regent. While Cersei would want that for herself, without Ned going to her, Ned might present her with a fait accompli. Or he might not: the key factors here are Sansa and Littlefinger.

Ned would still want to send Sansa away. Since she isn't smitten by Tommen, Sansa might not go to Cersei - but Sansa also wants to be Queen. Without the Joffrey argument Ned might not tell her that he's planning on breaking the betrothal so Sansa might not realize she may not become a Queen. Or Ned might let that be known and Sansa still goes to Cersei, which means Cersei acts quickly.

Littlefinger is a wildcard. Since Ned isn't supporting Stannis, LF lacks that reason to betray him and he can greatly profit from a Ned regency. Also, the war he wants looks heavily weighted against the Lannisters at that point - by becoming the Regent's trusted man, LF can think he can spark something bigger, maybe by the time Stannis inevitably does his claim. On the other hand, spoon-feeding Ned with the incest ASAP and triggering the book events do provoke the war he wants. OTOH, it's perfectly possible for Ned to disregard the need for additional manpower, as he isn't planning on confronting Cersei, whom he underestimates.

But the catch is, even if Ned and Cersei clash over the regency, the Lannisters don't even have a reason to arrest Ned and kill his household. If Cersei wins, she can just dismiss him from court while keeping at least Sansa as a ward/hostage due her betrothal to Tommen and ensure the North remains out of whatever Tywin is planning for the Riverlands - and there is the slight chance that Tywin does the smart thing and enlist the Riverlords and the North against Renly and Stannis instead of trying to fight them all by himself (and his plot armor)

And Arya would still probably run away, after her father is sent to the night's watch.

Unless Yoren grabs her. If he does, then Ned and Arya travel North together.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I was thinking what if joffrey had died when all was well due to some weird "hunting" accident or anything actually would sansa have married tommen as was the custom those days like in the case of Ned and Brandon or or would they have just married arya and tommen and sansa marries some one else what would go through sansa then super jealous of arya right?? Or marry some would be king 5 years younger like margeary the gold digging w***e

The Lannisters were already planning to marry Joff to Marg, even before the Battle of Blackwater, hence the reason the Tyrells arrived with Tywin to save the day. Sansa was just the last to know, so I expect we'd be where we are now with Marg and Tommen, as for Sansa, I'd guess much of the same as well. Once the Tyrells made a move for her, Tywin would have done so as well.

ETA: I wouldn't call Marg a gold digging whore, especially the book version. She more seems to be Mace's piece in the Game of Queens.

[juanml82]

The Lannisters were already planning to marry Joff to Marg, even before the Battle of Blackwater, hence the reason the Tyrells arrived with Tywin to save the day. Sansa was just the last to know, so I expect we'd be where we are now with Marg and Tommen, as for Sansa, I'd guess much of the same as well. Once the Tyrells made a move for her, Tywin would have done so as well.

ETA: I wouldn't call Marg a gold digging whore, especially the book version. She more seems to be Mace's piece in the Game of Queens.

The Lannisters were planning to marry Joffrey to Margery after Renly died. We have no indication the Lannisters were planning such a thing during AGOT.

And with Robert calling the shots by the time Joffrey dies, Tommen gets betrothed to Sansa, even though Margery brings more swords and turnips than Sansa. And after Robert dies, we have the issue of Renly crowning himself with Margery as his Queen.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

The Lannisters were planning to marry Joffrey to Margery after Renly died. We have no indication the Lannisters were planning such a thing during AGOT.

And with Robert calling the shots by the time Joffrey dies, Tommen gets betrothed to Sansa, even though Margery brings more swords and turnips than Sansa. And after Robert dies, we have the issue of Renly crowning himself with Margery as his Queen.

Well, I answered the original first post, which did not seem to specify a time for anything in particular, not even Joff's early death. :dunno:

[BaguastanSelmy]

Ned would be sent to the wall and Robb had to lead his army back to the North. The Riverland lords would no longer put fights against the Lannisters (vice versa), and thus there would be no excuse for Tywin to move into Harrenhal. No further battles would occur in the Riverlands and if Arya escaped Kingslanding, she would not go into trouble any more and succeed backing to Winterfell.

Tywin had to stay in Kingslanding with his army, and confront Stannis alone after he assasinated Renly. The Tyrells would wait until there is a winner, or not.

[unitron]

Are we talking about Joffrey dying early in the first book while Robert is still alive, maybe even before the attempt on Bran's life?

[Dream Wind]

OP here, I meant sometime like when nymeria bit him time after their betrothal but before bob's death

[unitron]

Okay, maybe it serves as a wake-up call for King Bob to spend time with Tommen, making sure he grows up not to be like Joffrey and trying to show him by example how to be a good king.

If the circumstances of the death are such that even Cersei can't twist them into it somehow being Bob's fault, maybe she's too busy grieving to work on killing Bob for a while.

Or maybe any attempts by Bob to spend time with Tommen get her so angry she slips and throws the childrens' real parentage in Bob's face.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Ned takes the black.

Robb supports Stannis.

Robb never has to deal with Walder so instead Stannis uses him to secure an alliance with House Tyrell.

The cutest couple ever comes into being and everybody <3 Robb + Margaery.

Dorne hears that Stannis is going to crush the Lannisters and they join up.

Trystane is betrothed to Shireen Baratheon.

Given that the Lannisters need Sansa, Tyrion isn't around, and Tommen is too young to consummate anything for quite a while, Tywin marries Sansa himself.

Stannis wins his war and takes his throne.

Ned's vows to the Watch are cancelled but he's already learned about the Others so he stays anyway.

Robb kills Tywin Lannister in a one-on-one match (cause Tywin can't actually handle a sword).

Cersei, and her children are killed, as is Jaime for trying to protect them.

Sansa's unborn child is designated heir to Casterly Rock.

Tyrion lives and oddly is the only person whose jokes can make Stannis laugh.

Stannis moves north to help fight the danger to the realm as reported to him by Jon, sent by Ned.

Aegon shows up and easily takes over while Stannis is out of town.

Aegon is killed when Drogon lands on him as...

Dany shows up with some dragons.

Tyrion (or somebody else) meets her and tells her about the Others.

Dany scoffs and tells everyone to bend the knee. Since she has dragons, everyone drops to their knees.

She flies North to survey more of her queendom thinking "that was easy."

Dany and Drogon land at the Wall where she meets with Ned and graciously allows him to live after a smirking Jorah points out that a man's past crimes are erased when he takes the black.

While Dany flies north to check on what Ned said about this whole Others hooey, Ned tells Jon who his real parents are. He also dispatches a raven to Cat about it ("sorry babe, couldn't tell you while Robert was alive), and one to Howland asking him to bring the proof.

Dany says "holy crap, there really are Others" and allies herself temporarily with Stannis, Ned, and whoever else bothered to show up.

She's annoyed that one of her dragons really likes Jon.

Howland shows up with the proof that Jon technically should be king, but the Others are about to attack so nobody cares.

Tyrion volunteers to fly a dragon into the Heart of Winter to end this thing after they get word from Bran (oh, yeah, he still goes to the cave) that it's the only way to stop things. Tyrion always wanted to ride a dragon, and he's never amounted to anything anyway. He becomes a hero, and Westeros never learns that the dragon actually balked and it was only Bloodraven's skinchanging the sucker that enabled Tyrion to complete his mission, killing himself and the dragon but saving Westeros.

The battle is won, Dany concedes Jon's claim is better than hers (plus he's riding one of her dragons now).

Jon doesn't want the throne, says Stannis can have it.

Dany says, wait if you don't want it I'm next in line.

Stannis (currently single) offers to marry Dany and co-rule with her.

She's not interested but she came all this way and she's not going back to Essos. Besides, Stannis can't be any worse than Hizdahr.

Bran shows up and tells Jon who his real parents are, he's very disappointed that everyone already knows.

Bran tells everyone about his adventures in the caves and his friend Brynden. No one believes him. He and Hodor are grounded.

Bloodraven remains the unsung hero of the tale.

See? It just doesn't work without Joffrey.

[DeathYon]

Ned takes the black.

Robb supports Stannis.

Robb never has to deal with Walder so instead Stannis uses him to secure an alliance with House Tyrell.

The cutest couple ever comes into being and everybody <3 Robb + Margaery.

Dorne hears that Stannis is going to crush the Lannisters and they join up.

Trystane is betrothed to Shireen Baratheon.

Given that the Lannisters need Sansa, Tyrion isn't around, and Tommen is too young to consummate anything for quite a while, Tywin marries Sansa himself.

Stannis wins his war and takes his throne.

Ned's vows to the Watch are cancelled but he's already learned about the Others so he stays anyway.

Robb kills Tywin Lannister in a one-on-one match (cause Tywin can't actually handle a sword).

Cersei, and her children are killed, as is Jaime for trying to protect them.

Sansa's unborn child is designated heir to Casterly Rock.

Tyrion lives and oddly is the only person whose jokes can make Stannis laugh.

Stannis moves north to help fight the danger to the realm as reported to him by Jon, sent by Ned.

Aegon shows up and easily takes over while Stannis is out of town.

Aegon is killed when Drogon lands on him as...

Dany shows up with some dragons.

Tyrion (or somebody else) meets her and tells her about the Others.

Dany scoffs and tells everyone to bend the knee. Since she has dragons, everyone drops to their knees.

She flies North to survey more of her queendom thinking "that was easy."

Dany and Drogon land at the Wall where she meets with Ned and graciously allows him to live after a smirking Jorah points out that a man's past crimes are erased when he takes the black.

While Dany flies north to check on what Ned said about this whole Others hooey, Ned tells Jon who his real parents are. He also dispatches a raven to Cat about it ("sorry babe, couldn't tell you while Robert was alive), and one to Howland asking him to bring the proof.

Dany says "holy crap, there really are Others" and allies herself temporarily with Stannis, Ned, and whoever else bothered to show up.

She's annoyed that one of her dragons really likes Jon.

Howland shows up with the proof that Jon technically should be king, but the Others are about to attack so nobody cares.

Tyrion volunteers to fly a dragon into the Heart of Winter to end this thing after they get word from Bran (oh, yeah, he still goes to the cave) that it's the only way to stop things. Tyrion always wanted to ride a dragon, and he's never amounted to anything anyway. He becomes a hero, and Westeros never learns that the dragon actually balked and it was only Bloodraven's skinchanging the sucker that enabled Tyrion to complete his mission, killing himself and the dragon but saving Westeros.

The battle is won, Dany concedes Jon's claim is better than hers (plus he's riding one of her dragons now).

Jon doesn't want the throne, says Stannis can have it.

Dany says, wait if you don't want it I'm next in line.

Stannis (currently single) offers to marry Dany and co-rule with her.

She's not interested but she came all this way and she's not going back to Essos. Besides, Stannis can't be any worse than Hizdahr.

Bran shows up and tells Jon who his real parents are, he's very disappointed that everyone already knows.

Bran tells everyone about his adventures in the caves and his friend Brynden. No one believes him. He and Hodor are grounded.

Bloodraven remains the unsung hero of the tale.

See? It just doesn't work without Joffrey.

You're probably right about a lot of this stuff.

I can totally picture Jorah saying that to Ned. He's such an asshole.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

You're probably right about a lot of this stuff.

I can totally picture Jorah saying that to Ned. He's such an asshole.

I have an alternate ending for Bran and Bloodraven:

Everyone does believe Bran.

Since the Night's Watch is now unnecessary, King Stannis sends men to the cave and Brynden is executed for deserting the Watch. (I don't know how, maybe they use pruning shears)

Bran and Hodor are grounded but become legends.

Bloodraven remains the unsung hero of the story because all anyone remembers is that he was a creepy tree guy who was executed for deserting, and besides no one believes you can skinchange a dragon.