Controversial opinions on characters

[Boarsbane]

In the epilogue, despite it's true what you say about Mace's force, Kevan seems to respect Jon more than Mace (like that's hard...). Jon is the one whose only negative flaw Tywin, the one many praise as a great commander, could find was being "too young". :dunno:

Kevan respects him because of his age but isn't thinking how they're screwed. Tywin also called him too bold and a glory hound, and he was right.

[Boarsbane]

But he didn't. How many men can say "I survived Robert Baratheon after I killed some Arryn guy and hurt war veteran Hoster Tully, and then, I took my army back to KL in the same day while my beautiful red and bear hair barely ruffled?".

You forgot the part about Aerys firing him then exiling him

[Light a wight tonight]

Well, I don't know, it's really Jaime covering his tracks and saving his own skin (along with Cersei's and the children's, yes) because of his unnecessary antics

Yep. Even Cersei said pushing Bran was unnecessary.

[The Dragons Hand]

Yep. Even Cersei said pushing Bran was unnecessary.

Well shit, it must be true then.

[A Wolf Among Sheep]

Euron is even stupider than Balon.

[Maid So Fair]

Euron is even stupider than Balon.

Hear hear!

[INCBlackbird]

on Thramsay video later (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owbVtMbyN3k yes, I'm sharing off topic, I worked hard on it damn it and an I am back

On the contrary, since people in leadership positions have power over others and their bad decisions affect not just themselves but everybody they're in charge of, if they are unsuitable it's in everyone's interest for this to be found out ASAP. But I feel you're still mostly talking about everyday regard for other human beings rather than the respect I mean (ie admiration).

yes it should be found out, but one shouldn't respond with not giving them respect, laughing at them or anything like that isn't going to help because in many cases (especially in Theon's) they are bad leaders because they lack self confidense and the ability to think rationally (not being led by emotions) if someone is a bad leader I think they should simply be removed from a leader position for the time being and being taught how they CAN be a good leader. and yes, I'm talking about respect, not admiration.

There are only two rules in the ASOIAF universe:
Rule no 1: LF lies.
Rule no 2: Follow rule no1
LF has a vested interest in keeping his position on the SC and in generating chaos to create new opportunities for himself. This might or might not be happening here, but I take what he says with a grain of salt. Sure, at the beginning it looks like Stannis can't possibly win - but more people might flock to him once the incest gets out, Renly might actually back him, and generally, shit happens. The guy's tenacious. You never know.

yes, but that's irrelevant to my point because Ned didn't know that, notice how he doesn't think "I shouldn't trust littlefinger" (because he does trust him because Catelyn told him to trust Petyr) he also doesn't think/say "that plan wouldn't work because..." his sole argument is that it's not honorable... and THAT is what I disagree with and THAT is why dispite meaning well I do not think Ned has that great a morality code.

I mostly tend to agree that there's nothing wrong at all with Jaime killing a murderous psychopath like Aerys (the only thing that annoys me is that no one did it before), but I definitely see where's Ned coming from. He wouldn't have minded had anybody else killed the King - he just thinks that if you swear/promise something you should keep your word. I also think that Jaime sitting on the IT afterwards makes it look very bad. And Ned didn't know about Aerys's plan to burn the city to the ground and Jaime didn't bother to share. The thing is, they're not obliged to like each other so if they have a difference in opinion, I think they're both perfectly entitled to think the other is a jerk.

yeah exactly, Ned thinks that when you swear an oath you should keep to it no matter what, and I find that a very black and white way of looking at it. that's not taking in circemstances AT ALL. I don't think that if you swear an oath to a murderous psychopath you are obligated to keep it... there is no such absolute, things are way more complex than that! I think that in most cases you should keep your oath, but there's situations where you definitly shouldn't, and those situations are all linked to morality. The king was going to burn down the city he, as a king, was supposed to protect and care for, well than why should that king stay protected?

and there's another thing in Ned's moraltiy that i don't like. in general, I think he's way too black and white about his principles, there are no absolutes because every situation and every person is different. even when something is wrong 99.9% of the time, you shouldn't condemn that 0,1%, I mean it's the same thing in the other example we're talking about, it's debateable what is more morally right/important : the ammount of bloodshed or the rightful king (it me it's very clearly the ammount of bloodshed) but Ned isn't even willing to contemplate the idea that it's debateable, for him there is no choice at all.

:cheers:
I persuaded someone of something on the internet. I didn't think this was possible :D

on has to admit when one is wrong haha.

[INCBlackbird]

What about douchebags who are given leadership jobs just by being in the right click or family even though they are well known douchebags? Happens a lot in the real world. Should we all respect them?

I said we should respect people by default but that respect can be taken away when they do something to deserve having their respect taken away. so if they're douchebags, nope, you shouldn't, in that case they've done something that deserves having previous given respect taken away.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Kevan respects him because of his age but isn't thinking how they're screwed. Tywin also called him too bold and a glory hound, and he was right.

Duh, he's a fiery ginger! or at least he was. He's gotten more dangerous with age is the point.

Euron is even stupider than Balon.

In all fairness, this remains to be seen. Lets wait for the final analysis. Euron has tricks up his sleeve and I suspect he isn't going away anytime soon. Westeros is the corpse he will feed on. His battle plans are brilliant. He's a master propagandist. etc etc

This also goes by the 'controversial' opinion I hold that Balon wasn't (altogether) stoopid.

Just because a lot of groupthink happens around here doesn't make a GROUPTHINK OPINION factual or controversial.

[A Wolf Among Sheep]

In all fairness, this remains to be seen. Lets wait for the final analysis. Euron has tricks up his sleeve and I suspect he isn't going away anytime soon. Westeros is the corpse he will feed on. His battle plans are brilliant. He's a master propagandist. etc etc

Fair enough. It's just that, at the moment, I find his plan a little ridiculous. I am open to the possibility that there's more to his plan and that he's simply fooling everybody. But I have to say, if the plan he has now is his ultimate endgame, then I have to say he's pretty stupid.

[A Wolf Among Sheep]

yeah exactly, Ned thinks that when you swear an oath you should keep to it no matter what, and I find that a very black and white way of looking at it. that's not taking in circemstances AT ALL. I don't think that if you swear an oath to a murderous psychopath you are obligated to keep it... there is no such absolute, things are way more complex than that! I think that in most cases you should keep your oath, but there's situations where you definitly shouldn't, and those situations are all linked to morality. The king was going to burn down the city he, as a king, was supposed to protect and care for, well than why should that king stay protected?

and there's another thing in Ned's moraltiy that i don't like. in general, I think he's way too black and white about his principles, there are no absolutes because every situation and every person is different. even when something is wrong 99.9% of the time, you shouldn't condemn that 0,1%, I mean it's the same thing in the other example we're talking about, it's debateable what is more morally right/important : the ammount of bloodshed or the rightful king (it me it's very clearly the ammount of bloodshed) but Ned isn't even willing to contemplate the idea that it's debateable, for him there is no choice at all.

I had already posted this earlier, so again, a man keeping to his vows is not just Ned's moral code, it's mostly everyone's. Everyone knows him as Kingslayer and his name has become tainted throughout the Seven Kingdoms. I don't know why you're criticizing Ned for sharing the same mentality as the vast majority of Westeros.

[LordStoneheart]

Oaths are important in Westerosi society. Is that your problem, Inky? Do you just not like the concept of someone being expected to keep their word?

Jaime could have avoided his (deserved) scorn of oathbreaking had he either taken Aerys hostage, or after killing him didn't chose to climb up the massive throne, something anyone in their right mind should have seen has suspicious, or he could have swallowed his damn pride and told them about the wildfire cache. But instead he acted like a brat and now is a self-pitying bitter man who scorns better men than him and will have a big share, if not most, if the caches in KL ignite.

[melx]

on Thramsay video later (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owbVtMbyN3k yes, I'm sharing off topic, I worked hard on it damn it and an I am back

since we are off topic,

your video Lancel & Jaime | Lay Me To Sleep is amazing...

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Arya will die.

How is that controversial? At least half of this forum thinks she's going to die or fears that there's a very real chance of her dying by the end of ADOS. If anything, it's controversial to think Arya will have a happy ending.

Oaths are important in Westerosi society. Is that your problem, Inky? Do you just not like the concept of someone being expected to keep their word?

Jaime could have avoided his (deserved) scorn of oathbreaking had he either taken Aerys hostage, or after killing him didn't chose to climb up the massive throne, something anyone in their right mind should have seen has suspicious, or he could have swallowed his damn pride and told them about the wildfire cache. But instead he acted like a brat and now is a self-pitying bitter man who scorns better men than him and will have a big share, if not most, if the caches in KL ignite.

:agree: Especially about not telling someone, anyone (other than Brienne 14 years later) that there are caches of wildfire all around the city. It would take only one accident to burn the city to ashes.

[LordCommander_Samwell]

Ned Stark- I really don't think he's as lily white as everyone paints him, his name and reputation seems to mean more to him than anything else, unlike Jaime who everyone seems to paint as the bad guy.

Tywin Lannister- He was ruthless, but was a good ruler, and wasn't scared to dirty his hands to stop a war and save lives unlike Ned Stark (even though it was for his families mutual benefit ).

p.s. I also think Jaime is a hero, and Theon is actually good deep down.