On the Black Stones and the Song (Part 2 of 3)

[Cookiesbane]

This is the second part of a theory on the black stones and the relation to the main story of the ASOIAF books. In the previous post (Part 1) I concluded that based on the TWOIAF evidence an ancient civilization existed which predates at least the Valyrian Freehold and created the black stones structures. The black stone people (BSP) seem to have been originated from Asshai and to have technology & magic quite similar to the Valyrians (maybe dragons too). Also their culture might have revolved around and be tied to the sea/water as Valyrian culture was tied to fire.

In this part I am going through TWOIAF one more time trying to figure out if there is any in-world historical evidence that acknowledges the existence of the BSP besides the black stones themselves. I have to admit that I consider none of the observations below as concrete evidence ( at least on the level that the black stones are) and I mostly see them as having the potential to be validated with information provided from the future books of the series (if we ever get to read those). Perhaps a more analytical mind can correlate these or even more information in order to draw a more concrete suggestion.

Before I start I must mention something that I discovered while I was doing my research. Although it doesn’t answer any lore-related questions, I believe it to be quite interesting and relevant to the topic.

In the Roman Forum in Rome (duh!) there is an ancient shrine that is called Lapis Niger, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapis_Niger ...Black Stone (dramatic chipmunk). Apparently, the shrine dates back to pre-republic Rome but the Romans of later times did not know the original creators of the structure. Even important writers of the imperial times didn’t have a validated origin story for it and relied of legends and old stories. Although the whole structure is not black there are some black marble blocks in it from which it takes its name. Now, I have to admit that I found this on Wikipedia so in terms of sources and validity it should be taken with a grain of salt. However, GRRM is known to borrow elements from real history (and completely blow them out of proportions in a good way). So Lapis Niger might have been an inspiration for the stones. Of course we will never know unless GRRM states so in the future.

Let’s start with the COTF and the giants. Both of them maintain a strict oral tradition to record history. So far, none of the two species have shown an indications that they have interacted with the BSP in the past. This can be attributed to the fact that both species have not had much time in the series yet so the question was never asked and the answer wasn’t given. In the future books the interaction between the COTF and the BSP might be revealed though Bran’s vision’s through the weirnet. However, even that seems unlikely. It is quite possible that the COTH and BSP never interacted due to their different lifestyles. The BSP stayed close to the sea and the COTF with the giants resided in forests, marshes etc. Also the history of the COTF and the First Men implies that as long as you do not threaten them the COTF do not interact with or attack you. In fact it is written that in the Stormlands

the children of the forest welcomed the newcomers to Westeros, in the belief that there was land enough for all.

So, if the BSP never threaten or sought the COTF then there is no reason for one to know the other’s existence. Furthermore, even if the two communicated there is no reason for the COTF to distinguish between the BSP and the First Men (assuming BSP are also human) since in the COTFs’ eyes all of them are just a different species.

Next, the FM and the Andals should be looked at as the same group since the Andals probably came way after the BSP disappeared and therefore all their knowledge comes from the FM legends. In those legends there is no record of other peoples besides the COTF and the giants. Nonetheless a lot of FM legendary figures seem to have abilities and perform tasks which suggest that they might members of a more technologically advances civilization. Looking at a number of those heroes, we can interpret some of their stories as actions of individuals that belong to the BSP:

• Bran the Builder
  

I don’t I need to present quotes about him. He is supposed to have had built the most impressive structures in the (known) Westerosi history. Although Storm’s End and the Wall are not know to be made of black stone, we haven’t really spent a lot of time inside Storm’s End and who know what is under the ice of the Wall.

• Pre-Andal Artys Arryn (fArtys ?)
  

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command. To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant’s Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son.

A hundred other tales are told of him, most of them just as fanciful. It is highly unlikely that such a man ever existed; like Lann the Clever in the westerlands, and Brandon the Builder in the North, the Winged Knight is made of legend, not of flesh and blood. If such a hero ever walked the Mountains and Vale, far back in the dim mists of the Dawn Age, his name was certainly not Artys Arryn, for the Arryns came from pure Andal stock, and this Winged Knight lived and flew and fought many thousands of years before the first Andals came to Westeros.

Here we have a dragon rider curving a kingdom on what is now the Vale. House Royce which were the original high kings of the Vale claim to go back as far as the age of Dawn. Does that mean that their House was started by (or at least followed) the reign of a BSP dragonrider that first ruled the region? Also, their coat of arms is black studs surrounded by runes on bronze. Do the studs stand for black stones?

• Elenei and Durran
  

The songs tell us that Durran won the heart of Elenei, daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. By yielding to a mortal’s love, Elenei doomed herself to a mortal’s death, and for this the gods who had given her birth hated the man she had taken for her lord husband. In their wroth, they sent howling winds and lashing rains to knock down every castle Durran dared to build, until a young boy helped him erect one so strong and cunningly made that it could defy their gales. The boy grew to be Brandon the Builder; Durran became the first Storm King. With Elenei at his side, he lived and reigned at Storm’s End for a thousand years, or so the stories claim.

The daughter of the sea god and the goddess of the wind. The daughter of a BSP couple that were dragon riders which abandoned the BSP to for a first man? If the BSP were technologically more advanced and controlled dragon’s I can see how the more primitive (at that time) FM would have considered some of the as gods or how their stories and actions would have been attributes to divine figures with the pass of time.

Furthermore, if Elenei is indeed BSP and Durran is human this probably prove that BSP and humans are sexually and genetically compatible. This is quite an important fact since it shows that BSP are of human nature.

• The Grey King
  

The Grey King ruled the sea itself and took a mermaid to wife, so his sons and daughters might live above the waves or beneath them as they chose. His hair and beard and eyes were as grey as a winter sea, and from these he took his name. The crown he wore was made of driftwood, so all who knelt before him might know that his kingship came from the sea and the Drowned God who dwells beneath it.

The deeds attributed to the Grey King by the priests and singers of the Iron Islands are many and marvelous. It was the Grey King who brought fire to the earth by taunting the Storm God until he lashed down with a thunderbolt, setting a tree ablaze. The Grey King also taught men to weave nets and sails and carved the first longship from the hard pale wood of Ygg, a demon tree who fed on human flesh.

The Grey King’s greatest feat, however, was the slaying of Nagga, largest of the sea dragons, a beast so colossal that she was said to feed on leviathans and giant krakens and drown whole islands in her wroth. The Grey King built a mighty longhall about her bones, using her ribs as beams and rafters. From there he ruled the Iron Islands for a thousand years, until his very skin had turned as grey as his hair and beard. Only then did he cast aside his driftwood crown and walk into the sea, descending to the Drowned God’s watery halls to take his rightful place at his right hand.

A BSP that killed a wild dragon, established himself as the ruler of the iron islands and kept asserting that his validity came from the sea (maybe the sea people aka BSP?). He also invented fire, proving to be a quite promethean figure. The Grey King is one of the figures that are definitely tied to the black stones due to the Seastone chair.

• Lann the Clever
  

That was when the golden-haired rogue called Lann the Clever appeared from out of the east. Some say he was an Andal adventurer from across the narrow sea, though this was millennia before the coming of the Andals to Westeros. Lann the Clever supposedly lived to the age of 312, and sired a hundred bold sons and a hundred lissome daughters, all fair of face, clean of limb, and blessed with hair “as golden as the sun.”

Not a lot here. Maybe he came from the east as every other BSP?

• Garth Greenhand
  

A thousand tales are told of Garth, in the Reach and beyond. Most are implausible, and many contradictory. In some he is a contemporary of Bran the Builder, Lann the Clever, Durran Godsgrief, and the other colorful figures of the Age of Heroes. In others he stands as the ancestor of them all. Garth was the High King of the First Men, it is written; it was he who led them out of the east and across the land bridge to Westeros. Yet other tales would have us believe that he preceded the arrival of the First Men by thousands of years, making him not only the First Man in Westeros, but the only man, wandering the length and breadth of the land alone and treating with the giants and the children of the forest. Some even say he was a god.

There is disagreement even on his name. Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green. Some stories say he had green hands, green hair, or green skin overall. (A few even give him antlers, like a stag.) Others tell us that he dressed in green from head to foot, and certainly this is how he is most commonly depicted in paintings, tapestries, and sculptures. More likely, his sobriquet derived from his gifts as a gardener and a tiller of the soil—the one trait on which all the tales agree. “Garth made the corn ripen, the trees fruit, and the flowers bloom,” the singers tell us.

It was Garth who first taught men to farm, it is said. Before him, all men were hunters and gatherers, rootless wanderers forever in search of sustenance, until Garth gave them the gift of seed and showed them how to plant and sow, how to raise crops and reap the harvest. (In some tales, he tried to teach the elder races as well, but the giants roared at him and pelted him with boulders, whilst the children laughed and told him that the gods of the wood provided for all their needs). Where he walked, farms and villages and orchards sprouted up behind him. About his shoulders was slung a canvas bag, heavy with seed, which he scattered as he went along. As befits a god, his bag was inexhaustible; within were seeds for all the world’s trees and grains and fruits and flowers.

A BSP acting as the founder of the Westerosi FM culture, teaching them agriculture and transitioning them from a hunter-gatherer society to an agricultural one.

• Oldtown and Battle Isle
  

How old is Oldtown, truly? Many a maester has pondered that question, but we simply do not know. The origins of the city are lost in the mists of time and clouded by legend. Some ignorant septons claim that the Seven themselves laid out its boundaries, other men that dragons once roosted on the Battle Isle until the first Hightower put an end to them. Many smallfolk believe the Hightower itself simply appeared one day. The full and true history of the founding of Oldtown will likely never be known.

The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.

Even more enigmatic to scholars and historians is the great square fortress of black stone that dominates that isle. For most of recorded history, this monumental edifice has served as the foundation and lowest level of the Hightower, yet we know for a certainty that it predates the upper levels of the tower by thousands of years.

Again what is written speaks for itself. Oldtown was probably first settled by the BSP as an outpost of sorts. Also, the Battle Isle was probably where a very significant battle took place. What is the battle that ended the long night or was a battle between the mazemakers and the BSP?

It is quite noteworthy that the only one of these figures has a last name (Bran Stark) and is directly associated with of the royal bloodlines (the Starks). Obviously a lot of houses claim to be descended from the other heroes but none of the heroes have last names that make the association more solid in any way. In fact, Garth and Lann are never stated to be kings and to have established a house and in the case of the Grey King and fArtys, their real names are unknown.

Obviously, I have not gone in detail about the relations between the FM heroic figures and the BSP. Given the limited information we have and the ambiguity of the myths, I don’t believe that a concrete narrative or connection between all the myths can be constructed. However, these myths clearly show that the FM interacted with a more advanced civilization which at times ruled over them (Grey King, fArtys), other times supported and improved their living (Bran, Garth, Lann?) and even mated with them (Elenei) producing offspring that might have created some of the older FM houses.

Now let’s take a look at Essos. Unfortunately, Valyria, Sarnor and Gischar provide no records, or at least none are mentioned, on interactions with a race older than them. The Gischari even go as far as to claim that they are the first civilization, something which is obviously invalidate by the claims of Yi-Ti and the Fisher Queens.

Nonetheless there are some let’s say archaeological evidence (besides the black stones themselves) which indicates that the BSP had been in some of the valyrian-influenced territories. These are:

• Lorath
  

In ancient days, the isles were home to the mysterious race of men known as the mazemakers, who vanished long before the dawn of true history, leaving no trace of themselves save for their bones and the mazes they built.

Scholars still debate the purpose of these mazes. Were they fortifications, temples, towns? Or did they serve some other, stranger purpose? The mazemakers left no written records, so we shall never know. Their bones tell us that they were massively built and larger than men, though not so large as giants. Some have suggested that mayhaps the mazemakers were born of interbreeding between human men and giant women. We do not known why they disappeared, though Lorathi legend suggests they were destroyed by an enemy from the sea: merlings in some versions of the tale, selkies and walrus-men in others.

The mazemakers might be the same people as the BSP. However the bones found there seem to contradict that. Maybe they bones belong to dead dragons but I am pretty sure that a city repopulated by Valyrians would have no problem recognising dragon bones. Maybe the mazemakes are a different race (or species) than the BSP and the BSP are what the legends call the enemies from the sea who destroyed original Lorath.

• Myr
  

There are certain signs that a city stood where Myr now stands even during the Dawn Age and the Long Night, raised by some ancient, vanished people, but the Myr we know was founded by a group of Valyrian merchant adventurers on the site of a walled Andal town whose inhabitants they butchered or enslaved.

Given the other black stone locations, I would say that Myr is an obvious place for the BSP to have created a colony during their expansion towards the west.

• Yi Ti
  

Even their ruins put ours to shame,” the Longstrider said … and ruins are everywhere in Yi Ti. In his

Jade Compendium, Colloquo Votar—the best source available in Westeros on the lands of the Jade Sea—wrote that beneath every YiTish city, three older cities lie buried.

As it will be seen later, I am pretty sure that Yi-Ti has assimilated a big part of the BSP history into their history and legends. It wouldn’t surprise if one out three buried cities for each YiTish city is of BSP origin, especially the ones close to the sea such as Asabhad, Yin and Jinqi.

• Leng
  

There are queer ruins in the depths of the island’s jungle: massive buildings, long fallen, and so overgrown that rubble remains above the surface … but underground, we are told, endless labyrinths of tunnels lead to vast chambers, and carved steps descend hundreds of feet into the earth. No man can say who might have built these cities, or when. They remain perhaps the only remnant of some vanished people.

Initially these ruins seems to be a simple tribute to Lovecraft since after this section the Old Ones are mentioned. However, these being remnants of vanished people seems to point at the BSP. The other case is that this was a Mazemaker’s colony destroyed by the BSP as might be the case with the Lorathi ruins.

It can be clearly seen that in Essos there is mostly material evidence of the BSPs’ existence, cities the founded to be most exact. I am pretty sure that folk stories and legends also existence for Essos that would incorporate the BSP but given the fact that ASOIAF focuses mostly on Westeros I assume that GRRM hasn’t found the time to write and incorporate any in the books. It is also quite probable that Essosi peoples have incorporated BSP related history as part of their folk stories. This might have happened in Westeros so there is not reason why it wouldn’t have happened in Essos.

To conclude, all the above further prove the existence of the BSP and indicate the various ways they might have interacted with the other civilizations. I understand that the majority of them are suggestions on what really happened. However, as I stated above it is quite hard (and somewhat foolish) to try to establish detailed narratives with such lack of information.

In the third and last part (this time I promise) I will answer what I believe to be the most important and relevant to the story question about the BSP. This question of course is “how and why did they disappear?”. I pretty sure that it there will be no spoilers if I say that the answer to that question is directly related to the Long Night.

[TheSovereignGrave]

I'd have to disagree with some of your theories that certain heroes were of the race that created the black stone. And just for the record, I consider the fused black stone to be the work of Proto-Dragonriders and the oily stone of some other completely unrelated race. Elenei and Durran are, I think, just remnants of the ancient religion of the First Men prior to the Pact and their acceptance of the Old Gods. After all the only religions we hear of in Westeros aside from the Old Gods and the Seven would be the faith of the Ironborn and the pre-Andal Sistermen. Both of which have two major deities (the Drowned God/Lady of the Waves and the Storm God/Lord of the Skies) which represent the skies and seas. And since Elenei is said to be the daughter of a sea God and a Sky Goddess, I think the tale is simply a legend from the times of the pre-pact First Men. With some possible later Andal embellishment (just the whole 'seven castles' thing, really). As for Garth Greenhand, I'm off the opinion he was probably just an early King whose name later became inflated with legend or another old First Men god.

And then Lorath: the Mazemakers may have been destroyed by the Deep Ones, but that'd be the extent of it. Their mazes have nothing in common with any of the other strange structures; they're not fused stone and they're not black and oily. They're just built of regular stone blocks. I think Myr is just referring to there having been Men living in the region prior to the founding of the Valyrian colony, and not any sort of magical creatures living there. And the thing about the ruins in Yi Ti is probably just a reference to real life where you can find cities built atop the ruins of even older cities.

[LmL]

Hey Cookiesbane! Great to see you've whipped out part 2. You're original thread was one of the first good ones I saw when I came back to the board after TWOIAF looking for people talking about bloodstone. Huzzah.

There's lots here I like, or generally agree with in some fashion, and there are some places where our views diverge. I've spilled a lot digital ink on my own ideas, so I'll comment primarily on the things I like about your take, and only briefly mention our divergence.

I like your general tactic here - let's look at all the ancient myths and see if there are signs of the Bloodstone Emperors's people, whatever you want to call them. That's the right idea, IMO. All of these legendary figures are fuzzy - they are definitely based on SOMETHING, but we don't know if some of these people were the same person or not, when they lived, or whether they represent one person or a dynastic family. I don't agree that it's impossible to stitch together the story of what happened 10,000 years ago - I think Martin wants us to figure it out. There are way too many clues and connections for me to believe that they are just intended to be old fables we can't understand, or even simply as Martin versions of famous myths just for the sake of reproducing myths (like Garth as the original Corn King, aka Ba'al himself). Furthermore, concluding that there isn't a way to "solve the puzzle" is simply a no-fun answer. I don't this George is trolling us like that - he's crafting very complex puzzles to challenge us. He is well aware of the level of scrutiny that the forums subject his work to, and these puzzles are a challenge to the smartest of us. Anyway, you must not totally believe that anyway, since you ARE a trying to figure things out ;)

As for the Lapis Niger stone at the heart of the forum, that definitely could have been an inspiration. But that story actually is all over the place, with the most famous being the black Kabba stone that is sacred to Islam at the Grand Mosque in Mecca. "Al-Hajar al-Aswad" literally means black stone. It's suposedely a fallen meteorite. The Egyptians too, with their "Ben-ben" stone that fell from heaven. Basically, ancient man viewed things that fell from heaven as very sacred. Easy to understand that, so it makes sense for George to use it multiple times, with the BSE and the Dayne's. It's a cool detail that the Romans don't know where the Lapis Niger even came from - that's a common occurrence when old advanced cultures banish and others take their place, adding on to the original designs, usually with inferior technique, as the original skills have been lost. It's important to remember that principle in general - history isn't a linear progression. It's full of peaks and valleys, flowering sand high points followed by crashes and dark ages. There was certainly a crash and dark age after the LN, as the Yi Ti section indicates - the earth was broken, and tribes of men splintered and scattered.

I wouldn't rule out the COTF and Giants interacting with the Bloodstone Emperor, or more likely his predecessors - the people of the Great Empire of the Dawn which he usurped. The store of battle isle include ideas that whoever settled it were traders, seeking to trade with the COTF. It also suggest slavers were coming there to abduct giants as slaves - that takes balls, and raw strength, or maybe magic.

And what about the Selkies / Deep Ones? You mentioned them a bit, but they have interactions with people all over westeros, specifically the western coast. I haven't figured out how the Selkies and Bloodstone E were mixed up together, or what there relationship was to each other, but it seems like they are likely concurrent or overlapping. I don't want to rehash someone else's thread, so I will simply reccomend you read Crowfood's Daughter's thread on the Selkies, which is fantastic. I'll add the link on an edit after I finish this.

Edit: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/122269-the-curse-of-the-first-king-spoilerstwoiaf/

Edit: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116518-the-walrus-men-origins-of-the-wildlings/

I definitely suspect fused black stone at the base of Storms End, and possibly other Brandon the Builder locations like the wall or the oldest parts of Winterfell or the Nightfort. Only speculation though, based on the antiquity of these places, and the spells associated with the Wall and Storms End.

Not sure what to make of Artys Arryn, or more accurately referred to as the Winged Knight, as we know the Arryn oart was added later. I don't know if I buy him being a dragon rider - he could as easily be some other kind of skinchanger - we've seen birds skinchager before. Dawn Age birds of prey were probably bigger, and would make a good skinchager beast. Not sure if someone rose on the back of a giant eagle or falcon, but that could be a metaphor for skinchanging. That fits with his marrying a COTF. Don't think the COTF would be into dragon riders, but I could be wrong. I don't really see the connection to the Royce's sigil. The bronze runic culture is distinctly first men, to men eyes. They are the defining elements of FM culture - bronze, iron, runes, sacrifices, worship of the old gods.

Not sure about Elenei, but as the child of two gods, she sounds a bit like the first gemstone emperor of the Great Empire - the only begotten son of the lion of night and maiden made of light. So maybe there's a connection there. Either way, I am pretty sure the Bloodstone Emperor was a human man. He married a tiger woman, so that's a bit twisted, and it seems he did every kind of necromancy and human animal experimentation in the book, but he was the brother of the Amethyst Empress, and there's no reason to think they weren't human.

As for the Grey King, I have a bunch of ideas there in a different direction, but he is certainly a Promethian figure and an important player in the Battle for the Dawn drama we are trying to piece together. Again, read the Crofoods Daughter thread about the Grey King and Garth. As an aside, I think the "sea dragon" that he slew, the one capable of drowning whole islands, is another comet impact reference. If a dragon is a comet or falling meteorite, a sea dragon is such that impacts in the water, or causes tsunamis and tidal waves - drowning whole islands. If the Grey King "slew" the sea dragon, that means he... managed to turn the flood to his benefit? That's what he does - take his enemies' weapons, and use them productively for himself. If the Nagga's ribs are petrified weirwoods, and I am sure they are, that links the Weirwoods to the "sea dragon" comet impact. Still working on puzzling out that connection.

Lann the clever, I have ideas but I am saving them. They are a it crackpot until I find more supporting evidence. I'll just throw this out: a huge cavern, full of gold. Think about it. A cavern... full of gold... "Paging Smaug, Smaug to the cave full of gold, paging Smaug..."

On to Essos. Sarnor does have interactions with older races - several. Their founder, Huzor Amai (gee that sounds a lot like Azor Ahai) is a descendent of the last of the Fisher Queens, and they ruled the same area. They did battle with the ancient cousins of the Ibbenese, the Hairy Men of the northern plains. The Ifequvron or woods walkers (COTF) were right in that area too at the same time. Giants were not far, in the Bones mountains. Also, there are many clues that Sarnor has some of the legacy of the Great Empire of the Dawn, which I am working on putting together in a coherent fashion.

The Ghiscari, imo, were the first power to arise after the LN. They were filthy disgusting slavers, the first warlords to arise out of anarchy in the harsher southern areas. But they aren't pre-LN. It seems that everyone fled the area of the GEOTD after the LN, most of them going east. So the Ghiscari could well be founded by survivors of that area, but who knows. But def not the oldest culture. F@ck them.

Mazemakers did battle with the Selkies, we know that. They didn't use greasy stone or black stone. They have nothing in common with the Bloodstone Emp or his people, that I can see. I see the connection as being to the Lengi. Their underground city sounds EXACTLY like the description of the Lorath mazes, going hundreds of feet underground. The Lengi are super tall, as the Mazemakers were. I definitely think the "holy isle of Leng" was an important part of the Great Empire of the Dawn, and carries on some of its traditions. The Old Ones beneath Leng may even be some kind of analog or opposite to the COTF in my opinion, although that view isn't popular. The Lengi got their large golden eyes that see in the dark from somewhere? And who's older than the COTF? Anyway.

I agree, Yi Ti assimilated the legacy of the GEOTD. The Great Empire was large and diverse, containing many ethnicities and tribes. They all scattered post LN, and the Yi Tish were most likely one tribe in the area who stayed and laid claim to the mantle of the Great Empire. I do not think they are genetic descendents of the gemstone emperors. It's clear those folks had Valyrian looks, from Dany's dream at the end of AGOT. YI Tish are just keeping that seat warm.

One last thing about the GEotD: Yi Ti is notorious for moving their capital around, A LOT, and a long way at times. This is a clue that the capital of the GEOTD was not Yin. It was Asshai (imo of course). Asshai was HUGE, built for a massive population. If the bloodstone E built Asshai during the Long Night, in only a few years... It doesnt make sense. If Asshai was built after the area was radiated or whatever, it makes no sense to build a city that big. They're aren't that many shadow binders and blood mages, etc, to warrant it. No, I think Asshai was once a great city, and the explosion of the elf moon and the following million dragon meteor shower roasted Asshai in a giant firestorm, leaving it coated in the greasy stuff, or simply radiating the rock until is is greasy looking. The Bloodstone Emperor set up shop there, since it was the nexus of the dark bloodstone magic.

Now, if the BSE did somehow raise Asshai in a few years, there must be a huge crater lined with the bloodstone moon rock upstream from Asshai, where they would have quarried the stone to build the city. Either way, that whole peninsula is now a smoking wasteland, but I think it used to be the capital of the GEOTD.

My major gripe with your essay, and most others on black stone, is that people are lumping fused stone (Hightower fortress, Five Forts) with the greasy stone (Asshai, Isle of Toads, Yeen, and Seastone Chair). They aren't the same at all.

Fused stone comes from dragon fire. We don't know what the stone was before fusing - probably granite - but I supoose it could have been greasy stone, although I doubt it. The fused stone structures serve as very functional, outpost or military type structures. Five Forts and Battle Isle fort are both utilitarian in style, unadorned, as opposed to the Valyrian fancy fancy. They are technically advanced though, no doubt there. I believe this fused stone to be the work of the pre-LN Great Empire.

Carving a stone lump into a Toad Statue or Kracken definitely does NOT indicate advanced culture - anyone (or any group of people) with enough time on their hands can carve a rock. No technology is needed, at all. But on the other hand, Yeen is quarried with huge square blocks of greasy stone - so we have the same question as at Asshai. Was Yeen originally a normal city, radiated by the bloodstone explosion, or transformed by dark magic? More likely, it seems like it was quarried from a deposit of Bloodstone. That's definitely a sign of advanced technology, very much so. This is where the mystery lies. Seastone chair and Toad Isle statue definitely seem selkie-affiliated, with the possible exception that Selkies and Merlins are different, and opposed to each other, and I am lumping them together erroneously. But Yeen is a bit far inland for Selkies, potentially, and I'm not necessarily inclined to buy the Selkies as stone masons.

So, to understand the black stone and the bloodstone emperor, we need to figure out the relationship between the Selkies and Bloodstone people and just what the the greasy stone locations are about.

Overall, great job and I enjoyed the read. I think we should all be un afraid to push this in different directions, as most likely we all have a pice of the puzzle, and perhaps we can put it together sometime before TWOW comes out. :)

[TheSovereignGrave]

As for the Grey King, I have a bunch of ideas there in a different direction, but he is certainly a Promethian figure and an important player in the Battle for the Dawn drama we are trying to piece together. Again, read the Crofoods Daughter thread about the Grey King and Garth. As an aside, I think the "sea dragon" that he slew, the one capable of drowning whole islands, is another comet impact reference. If a dragon is a comet or falling meteorite, a sea dragon is such that impacts in the water, or causes tsunamis and tidal waves - drowning whole islands. If the Grey King "slew" the sea dragon, that means he... managed to turn the flood to his benefit? That's what he does - take his enemies' weapons, and use them productively for himself. If the Nagga's ribs are petrified weirwoods, and I am sure they are, that links the Weirwoods to the "sea dragon" comet impact. Still working on puzzling out that connection.

My personal opinion when it comes to a possible sundering of the Iron Islands in the past was that if it happened, it was probably the CotF. When they called down the Hammer of the Waters on the Neck, it could've sundered the Iron Islands and disconnected them from mainland Westeros. His killing of Nagga could simply be a fantastical way of saying that the Ironborn eventually killed the CotF on the Isles. Certainly the demon tree Ygg sounds like a great weirwood, with it's pale bark and eating men (early sacrifices of men in the mouth of the weirwood).

And it's certainly interesting that the Iron Islanders have a tale of how they were taught to build longships and the like. After all, I'm pretty sure that by this time they would've already been in the area that's now the Iron Islands and we know that the Fist Men weren't a seafaring people. So how'd they get there in the first place without ships? Either their own origin legends hold some value and the Ironborn aren't First Men, or the Iron Islands were once connected to the mainland.

[Cookiesbane]

I'd have to disagree with some of your theories that certain heroes were of the race that created the black stone. And just for the record, I consider the fused black stone to be the work of Proto-Dragonriders and the oily stone of some other completely unrelated race.

I am not particularly confident to the heroes being part of the BSP myself but as I state in the original post it is something that might be true for some of the legends. I try to hold the same stance about the people that made the black stones. I believe that they are one people and not more because it is the simplest solution. It comes down to the limited information we have.

[Cookiesbane]

My major gripe with your essay, and most others on black stone, is that people are lumping fused stone (Hightower fortress, Five Forts) with the greasy stone (Asshai, Isle of Toads, Yeen, and Seastone Chair). They aren't the same at all.

They don't have to be the same in order to belong to the same civilization. There are hundreds versions of stainless steel currently in real life. All with different methods of manufacturing and use and feel to the human touch. I don't see why the BSP/pre-Asshai'i (we need to come with a common name for them) cannot use different types of the same material. Fused stone for military purposes and greasy stone for civil and religious structures.

[Garth Greenhands]

I love your ideas on the BSP and I tend to agree with you. I tend to think the BSP were an ancient race of humans with great magical abilities, possibly originating from the black stone, which may be fallen meteorites. I believe they built Ashaai, Leen, the Five Forts, etc.

They probably originated in Sothoryos (I'm purely guessing here that George is relating planetos to earth as much as possible and the Sothoryos is the cradle of life) and spread out across the entire planet. My only quam about this is that magic seems to eminate from the shadow, where the blackstone meteor probably fell. This would indicate that they were local to this region and their power grew as they discovered magic

.

Anyway, they spread out, built an empire, that spanned the globe or at least had outposts everywhere. Though I tend to think they journeyed east to reach west. This means they were sea-farers and this is, in my opinion, where the legends of the Deep Ones or aquatic monsters originate. They were the invaders from the sea who toppled the mazemakers (presumably another, possibly older empire that existed in Lorath, and probably Leng).

I believe that Lucifer means Lightbringer puts too much stock in the Amethyst Empress stuff. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy your threads and they are very interesting, but I tend to think they are too literal. For me, the BSP are the people of the Gemstone Empire, but the stories and legends are purely the folk tales of the people and the stories of them being Gods-on-earth are propaganda similar to that used in Japan by it's emperors. Though the blood betrayal probably happened, I don't think it was Gods who caused the long night, as I don't think gods actually exist in this world (I am a little torn on this, maybe forces of nature do but I tend to change my mind a little). My theory on the long night is in fact that, as someone (maybe LmL) suggested, a comet obliterated one of planetos' moons, sending the seasons into chaos, and not that the Daynes followed a meteor to Westeros but that they were already in one of the outposts, battle Island perhaps and the star happened to fall in their vicinity.

As for the mythical borders of the Great empire, I believe they are somewhat true, if more fluid then people tend to think, but that would not stop the BSP from spreading out and building settlements across the whole planet (there are probably unknown cities and wonders in Ulthos and further south in Sothoryos that could put Ashaai to shame and put this whole theory into disarray again)

What I'm getting at is, These people definitely (at least for me) existed, but they were not Gods or Fish Hybrids but advanced humans who thrived in a world that possibly had more magic in it. I certainly don't buy the deep ones as mer-people and I doubt Selkies or Walrus men are real. It seems to me like it is in fact just a tip of the hat to Lovecraft and to be taken as myths in a world full of myths, some of which may have a kernel of truth, just not that one.

Basically, people are believing at face value the tales and legends around a small amount of material evidence far too readily. This stuff, if it happened at all, happened 10,000 years ago and so will be shrouded in myth and fantasy much like our own "history" in Christian, Egyptian, Persian, Hindu, Buddhist crackpottery. It stems from some actual tangible history, or perhaps from metaphors about the nature of the world and the forces of nature. I think Planetos resembles earth far more closely than people think. The Eastern Gods are a yin and yang to each other that exist n harmony, while the more Western gods (and newer gods) are a duality that seeks to destroy one half, i.e good and evil.

As to the nature of the black stone, or bloodstone. I think the oily, greasy stone is simply imbued with magic while the other Black stone at the forts and the hightower are for construction and defence and so do not need magical properties. Perhaps if the wall wasn't made from Ice, it too might be greasy.

I also tend to think the Five Forts are a little exagerated. The wall is 700 feet tall and made of ice, but the forts are each 1000 feet tall and made of fused stone. Even with hundreds of dragons, magic and slaves I doubt 1000 feet of fused stone is possible to erect. Still, I might be bringing up something that goes without saying.

The legends of the Age of Heroes are interesting. Don't they come after the long night? Bran building the Wall and all? (I could be way off so sorry if I am), so in that case, them being BSP doesn't make a ton of sense, though I will say, when you're talking about stuff so remotely in the past, timelines are impossible to create and I do think Bran and Durran being BSP is likely if not certain and certainly Garth and the Grey King. (When I say certain, please understand I'm using a different standard for certainty when talking about stuff that may have been made up by someone when they were drunk 300 years before present).

To wrap up, I don't think this will have anything to do with the story. ASoIaF is a human story, not about prophecies and gods and epic fantasy. They are only added to make the human drama more compelling. Prophecies make people make stupid decisions, which they then have to deal with, so (hopefully) this stuff may be mentioned and confirmed or refuted in the series, but I don't think it play a prominent role in any way.

Anyway, there's my two cents

[Garth Greenhands]

Lord Martin has a pretty well put together that links the Black Stone People to the Starks, the Others and the wall.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/125527-the-starks-are-not-first-men-spoilers-all/?hl=%2Bfive+%2Bforts