A God-King by Any Other Name: The secret history of three Gemstone Emperors

[LmL]

Myth is either incompatible or have to be stripped of all meaning to bash it into an external pattern.

This explains a lot. I was waiting for you to say something like this.

We don't really have a lot to talk about, I'm afraid.

[LmL]

That's not even to say I am right and you are wrong - of course I think I'm right but so do you, who knows. But our views of history and mythology are so diametrically opposite that it's really not feasible to I've a coherent conversation about the in-world mythology of ASOIAF.

We are both superimposing our own biases on to the story hear: me thinking that myth usually does have a measure of truth to it, and almost always a layer of astronomy, and looking for signs of common origin by way of comparative mythology; and you, assuming that no such thing is possible, myths are unintelligible, etc etc however you like to phrase it.

The thing is - my bias results in constructing theories which make predictions or observations which can be tested against the rest of the text. Your bias results in you automatically dismissing certain theories out of hand without trying to consider if they might be true.

So, I ask again, have you looked at my astronomy theories upon which most of this we are discussing here is building off of?

[LmL]

I don't know, he must have nothing better to do than read threads he doesn't like and fundamentally disagrees with and repeat the same f**king thing over and over. With all due respect. It does seem pointless.

[LmL]

Although I must say, Valyria is really a lot more like the Roman Empire than Atlantis, I hve always thought. Atlantis supposedly existed 10,000 years ago - just when the GeoDawnians did. The Valyrians were destroyed 400 years ago. The GEotD, being a previous high point of civilization lost to a cataclysm thousands of years ago, is a perfect match for Atlantis. And the GEotD shows signs of being a maritime empire, which Atlantis supposedly was.

Edit: Blind Beth I know you don't want to talk Atlantis but it is sort of relevant, as it does seem like the template for the rough idea of the GEotD. But that's all I wanted to say about it.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Cool. I agree the concepts are the same, just don't want to get into debating the existence of Atlantis IRL. :-)

In other news, I just had a thought.

What if the tiger woman bride was a CoTF *who warged tigers*? (And other big cats.) Then the lion portion of the forging of Lighbringer could mean AA tried to temper the blade in a lion's heart when she was warging it, hoping that would work...but it didn't and he had to put it through her real heart after all.

[TheSovereignGrave]

Cool. I agree the concepts are the same, just don't want to get into debating the existence of Atlantis IRL. :-)

In other news, I just had a thought.

What if the tiger woman bride was a CoTF *who warged tigers*? (And other big cats.) Then the lion portion of the forging of Lighbringer could mean AA tried to temper the blade in a lion's heart when she was warging it, hoping that would work...but it didn't and he had to put it through her real heart after all.

That seems like a bit of a stretch since as far as we know the only place the CotF likely were in Essos was along the Northern coast west of the Bone Mountains. I mean, it's not impossible that they were once more widespread but there's nothing to really suggest they were that widespread. And since skinchanging seems to be a CotF thing, I just can't see that being a major possibility.

[LmL]

It's all about those golden eyed Lengi and the Old Ones ;)

[SolomonBlack]

That seems like a bit of a stretch since as far as we know the only place the CotF likely were in Essos was along the Northern coast west of the Bone Mountains. I mean, it's not impossible that they were once more widespread but there's nothing to really suggest they were that widespread. And since skinchanging seems to be a CotF thing, I just can't see that being a major possibility.

Well there is also the description of Mossovy as "a cold dark land of shapechangers and demon hunters" mapped as a forest. Once one establishes the Children not being exclusive to Westeros that isn't unthinkable. On the other hand the report of Corlys Velaryon on Ifequevron is a bit ambiguous given that they seem to have bit more civilization then the CotF we know having a carved tree city in Vaes Leisi. There's no mention of weirwoods either forest.

Still getting the Children to Essos is really only half the work, its own separate speculation really.

At the level of detail we have the "tiger woman" could be a brindled woman (striped!) with about as much fidelity, or a human with a really aggressive attitude, or coming from some forgotten people. Or some supernatural creature analogous to a Rakshasa either real or not.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

That seems like a bit of a stretch since as far as we know the only place the CotF likely were in Essos was along the Northern coast west of the Bone Mountains. I mean, it's not impossible that they were once more widespread but there's nothing to really suggest they were that widespread. And since skinchanging seems to be a CotF thing, I just can't see that being a major possibility.

I am getting pretty convinced that tiger-bride is Nissa Nissa is a skinchanging CotF.

The logistics of getting a CotF into the GEotD is actually not a problem at all, IMO. Leaf tells Bran (and we know from Age of Legends history) that CotF were far more widespread during that time in Westeros, and that she herself has wandered the earth. There's really nothing to keep a CotF out of the GEotD court.

Well there is also the description of Mossovy as "a cold dark land of shapechangers and demon hunters" mapped as a forest. Once one establishes the Children not being exclusive to Westeros that isn't unthinkable. On the other hand the report of Corlys Velaryon on Ifequevron is a bit ambiguous given that they seem to have bit more civilization then the CotF we know having a carved tree city in Vaes Leisi. There's no mention of weirwoods either forest.

Still getting the Children to Essos is really only half the work, its own separate speculation really.

At the level of detail we have the "tiger woman" could be a brindled woman (striped!) with about as much fidelity, or a human with a really aggressive attitude, or coming from some forgotten people. Or some supernatural creature analogous to a Rakshasa either real or not.

Hey look who decided to play along. :-) Yes, Mossovy, home of "shapechangers," would have been within the boundary of the GEotD. And I agree that the Essosi Ifequevron seem to be less dedicated to a low-tech lifestyle. There might well be other significant differences between the two, them having been on different continents for millennia by this point. But perhaps during the Age of Legends they were more similar.

My first assumption about the tiger-woman was that she was a brindled woman. However...I'm not sure what the point of that would be, in the larger picture. IIRC the hybrids such as brindled men can't naturally breed with other species, so it's hard to see how she could have a son with the BSE. And nearly impossible to imagine her in the roll of Nissa Nissa. (which I will defend further in a minute.) Same objections would apply to a Rakshasa analog--i.e. difficulty of reproduction and unlikliness of her becoming a willing martyr later.

I actually think "tiger" might be a bit of misdirection from GRRM, making us think of eastern mythology and distracting from the cat-eye and warg connections that have already been established in regards to CotF.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

There was another path I thought about but it has weaker connection with Renly/Stannis.

Three brothers see destruction BSE has brought upon the world and join to stop him (this time Garth is with brothers and it's not his death but overall destruction that made them unite) when BSE is defeated Garth is sacrificed to return the life to earth, like sacrificial Corn King. There still can be parallels with Renly/Stannis, Stannis is unwilling but he knows sacrifice is for the greater good. Also Proto-Dayne could be the one sacrificing, he has BSE's shadow fire sword and Sapphire Emperor stand and watches (like Brienne). Everything else stays as I have say previously.

Actually this version is far better

Ok, I am ready to defend my thesis that the Ruby Emperor is represented as another aspect/life of the Bloodstone Emperor rather than his son. I think there are a few sets of ideas established in the main series that point to this.

The Trident:

First let's look at your Trident analogy, which I still think is an awesome catch and very relevant. I am definitely on board with the importance of the red/blue/green trinity; after all, I started this whole line of inquiry because I was wondering why there wasn't a red, blue, and green emperor.

Consider the image of an actual trident. One long handle, leading up to three tines: two branch off to either side, one continues straight up from the the handle. It's essentially a continuation of the handle, just in a different shape. I think this works quite well as a symbol of a man having two sons who go in different directions from their father (one becomes a fertility god on a new continent, one becomes an evil SOB) and who also goes from one long life (the handle) into a second, shorter, sharper life.

Brother slaying brother:

As I've already mentioned, there are some significant instances of brother-slaying in ASOIAF.

- Ramsay, the evil and jealous younger brother, killed Domeric Bolton the basically good older brother. Domeric was noted for his generous and outgoing nature (wanting to share his trueborn home with his bastard brother, craving companionship) and his affinity with horses (animals, nature) which gives him a bit of a symbolic link to Garth.

- The Stark in Winterfell at the time slew his brother the Night's King. The motive here doesn't fit the motive I'm assigning to the Sapphire Emperor, but it's still a notable instance of brother-killing.

- Stannis kills Renly. While Stannis frames it as justice, I think a close reading of the situation points more to Stannis jealously defending his claim for selfish reasons, responding more to a history of sibling slights and rivalry than to some higher ideal. Later Stannis becomes more noble, as he listens more to Davos and helps save the Night's Watch and the north. But at the time he kills Renly his motives are questionable at best.

The only significant instance of father-slaying I can recall is Tyrion killing Tywin. And the motive doesn't match the motive you've assigned to the sons of the Bloodstone Emperor. I.e. Tyrion didn't kill Tywin because he was evil but because Tyrion personally was in a really dark place. And it wasn't exactly for the greater good.

Second sons far from home:

According to my model (Garth as older and SE as younger, exiled son of the BSE) the Sapphire Emperor is a second son. There are a couple of significant models of second sons going far from home for violent purposes.

- Sending second sons to the Wall is an ancient Westerosi tradition. Ostensibly this is for their own glory but really it's to get them out of the way.

- The company Second Sons in Essos speaks to the popularity of second sons going far from home to become sellswords.

Nissa Nissa the tiger woman

This relates to my model versus your model because I believe Nissa Nissa and the tiger woman are one and the same. One is referenced as the wife of the BSE, the second as wife of Azor Ahai (whom I think we are both equating with the Ruby Emperor). So unless Azor Ahai married his mother (seems unlikely behavior for the savior of the world) then TW=NN necessitates BSE and AA/RE as the same person. So if I can show evidence for the tiger woman as Nissa Nissa I am effectively providing evidence for the BSE as Azor Ahai.

- Tiger-woman as CotF warg: Hybrid creatures definitely exist on Planetos currently, however it's not actually established that the GEotD practiced hybridization. Valyria, definitely, but I think the only "evidence" we have for hybrids in GEotD is this tiger-woman reference. So if I propose a reasonable alternative explanation for her description, then existence of hybrids during or preceding the reign of the BSE has no definitive support.

What is quite well established in the series, however, is the use of hybrid language to describe wargs.

Mel sees Bran in her fire as a boy with the face of a wolf.

Dany sees Rob in a dream with the head of a wolf--and notably not dead; his wolf eyes look at her "with mute appeal."

A Faceless Man tells Arya she has wolf eyes. Others call her wolf-girl on multiple occasions.

Lyanna, who was likely not a warg per se but has warg/(likely)CotF blood, is also called "wolf girl" by Cercei and "half a horse" by Lady Dustin.

Brynden Rivers is called "Bloodraven" and "three eyed crow" and said to have a thousand eyes.

"Once a beast’s been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him." -- Varamyr Sixskins

Add to this my original evidence that Illyrio's tiger-eye gemstone represents CotF and earth magic, and that CotF have claw-like fingernails and cat-like night vision (which would easily be framed as tiger-like if they were encountered while hunting; CotF are noted for their hunting abilities) and I feel like the case is pretty strong.

Add to this: if the tiger-woman, CotF warg, bride of BSE, is the mother of the SE/Great Other, then it makes all the sense in the world for someone trying to defeat the SE to seek help from the CotF. Otherwise this seeking frames them as the stock "wise elf" fantasy trope and is kind of less interesting to me than if the CotF are in fact related to the SE/GO.

- Nissa Nissa as CotF warg: "Nissa" is a Scandinavian word meaning either "friendly elf" or "mischievous elf." (Thanks LmL for pointing that alt definition out in your first Astronomy post.) In terms of fantasy tropes the CotF are more or less the elves of Planetos. That the name is doubled may point to a dual nature, something often associated with wargs (second lives, hybrid language).

Accepting Nissa Nissa as a warg also solves the mystery of the lion in the story of Lightbringer. LB is first tempered in water, then in the heart of a lion. Why a lion? I've yet to see a good explanation for that (if you guys have please link!) If Nissa Nissa is already associated with warging big cats, and the CotF have told AA that he must temper the sword in the heart of his beloved wife, then doesn't it make a lot of sense for him to first try tempering the sword in the heart of a beast that his wife is currently warging? As for the switch from tiger to lion, that's easily explained in the context of wargs. Wildling wargs commonly "ride" multiple animals. And the story of the BSE and his sons likely played out over many years, much longer than the average lifespan of a tiger.

So, all in all, I feel like my model of BSE = father of EE & SE with BSE/AA/RE as aspects of the same person has a lot of thematic support from the larger ASOIAF story.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

@Equillibrium: I sense that you are trying to fit Garth in as a sacrificial figure, but keep in mind that Garth supposedly died at the end of the summer and revive in the spring, according to the oldest legends. Garth isn't sacrificed to bring the spring, blood sacrifice is made *to Garth* for good harvest. We don't know much about god-king nature, but I personally thing Garth did receive blood sacrifice and that blood magic was actually pretty normal in GEotD culture (just not human sacrifice. Probably.) Garth as a fertility deity who dies at the end of the summer mainly speaks, to my mind, of Garth's/EE's murder being the immediate instigation for the Long Night.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Plus...if it's a story of bad guy being bad, then defeated by good guys...why all the obfuscation? Wouldn't that be a great story to tell around the night fires and keep alive in cultural memory? I think the obscurity and inconsistencies and missing pieces of the story make more sense if the motives and connections of the player are more complicated and messed up, as per my model.

[Equilibrium]

Ok, I am ready to defend my thesis that the Ruby Emperor is represented as another aspect/life of the Bloodstone Emperor rather than his son. I think there are a few sets of ideas established in the main series that point to this.

The Trident:

First let's look at your Trident analogy, which I still think is an awesome catch and very relevant. I am definitely on board with the importance of the red/blue/green trinity; after all, I started this whole line of inquiry because I was wondering why there wasn't a red, blue, and green emperor.

- Ramsay, the evil and jealous younger brother, killed Domeric Bolton the basically good older brother. Domeric was noted for his generous and outgoing nature (wanting to share his trueborn home with his bastard brother, craving companionship) and his affinity with horses (animals, nature) which gives him a bit of a symbolic link to Garth.

But what if Ramsey didn't kill Domeric, and he probably didn't, come on, Ramsey being that subtle with poison and all. Plus Ramsey has no self-control, he would have said it bunch of times, and we don't know even how he was feelingabout Domeric. Candidates are Ramsey's mother, Reek or even Roose (see, father).

I still can't stomach bloodstone being corrupted ruby, nothing ever points to that and both have pretty loaded meanings on it's own.

Bull deities are likely derived from kings that were chosen each year to be sacrificed, so myth Garth is reborn but real Garth was not, he was killed.

It's not bad guy being bad, it's Azor Ahai being bad, and his not so good sons Great Other and founder of Valyria defeating him to stop total destruction.

We will see, more clues we find clearer whole thing becomes and it's always good to put forth good hypothesis to spur the research into new direction

[SolomonBlack]

Hey look who decided to play along. :-) Yes, Mossovy, home of "shapechangers," would have been within the boundary of the GEotD. And I agree that the Essosi Ifequevron seem to be less dedicated to a low-tech lifestyle. There might well be other significant differences between the two, them having been on different continents for millennia by this point. But perhaps during the Age of Legends they were more similar.

My first assumption about the tiger-woman was that she was a brindled woman. However...I'm not sure what the point of that would be, in the larger picture. IIRC the hybrids such as brindled men can't naturally breed with other species, so it's hard to see how she could have a son with the BSE. And nearly impossible to imagine her in the roll of Nissa Nissa. (which I will defend further in a minute.) Same objections would apply to a Rakshasa analog--i.e. difficulty of reproduction and unlikliness of her becoming a willing martyr later.

I actually think "tiger" might be a bit of misdirection from GRRM, making us think of eastern mythology and distracting from the cat-eye and warg connections that have already been established in regards to CotF.

Just because I know Freemason conspiracies to be false doesn't mean I can't pick up where they really did influence Washington DC's architecture.

This one just happens to arise independently, I'd already speculated on the presence of Children and Giants in Essos. The tone of this story is ultimately naturalistic next to just about all high fantasy, we've no creation myth and dubious at best gods for just one thing, and heck the Worldbook opens with flat out stating nobody knows how old the world is. That if so by our own meta reasoning demands a timeline that laughs at the mere history of man from the earliest whispers of the Dawn Age.

In such a case is there any reason to confine the Children (and Giants!) to Westeros never crossing the Arm of Dorne. Are they supposed to be native with say no reported evolutionary forebears apparent? Not supportable and on an old Planetos timeline how could they not cross one way or the other. So you look at likely habitats in Essos and what do we have... well suggestive passages in Ifequevron and Mossovy. With the giant Jhogwin in between who I believe were "twice the size" of Westerosi ones about as much as I believe Old Nan's stories where they have boots a man can hide in. I expect the Dawn Age of Essos was not unlike the Dawn age of Westeros only without the harsh North to retreat into or the Pact they were pushed out in days long lost and any records gone in the ruins of Sarnor, Ghis, or the Qaathi or at least have not made it to the Citadel.

Of course that's about the end of the line, further requires more clear support. Weirwoods have never been attested to in Essos or other signatures of the old gods. That may suggest that any greenseers either never existed which would demand a fairly different culture from these Cousins of the Forest. They could be sundered on an evolutionary scale like say mankind, the Ibbenese, and the Brindled Men who are almost but not quite close enough to breed. Can't know, but the basic prescence is far from unthinkable.

One can speculate farther down the line... but its when you start mashing speculations together as if that makes them stronger I take issue. We can just barely model Cousins of the Forest, we can't without further evidence tie them to an even sparser legend of a "tiger-woman" which as noted has far too many possiblities. Picking ones that tie together the picture one wants isn't a good theory, its like bashing the pieces of a puzzle together to paint your own picture. You might draw something that way, but its probably going to be an icky picture and not the real one.

And its not that I'm even so opposed to some super-civilzation in the East. I don't think it literally involved 10k demigods and has a secret gem code written all over the books. Stick to the evidence you have which is a half a page of a Long Night YiTish legend with no other references but a dubious claim of about the Five Forts. Assume plenty of the same distortion that leads some people to make Casterly Rock into a palace of solid gold, that's the point of doing the Worldbook as an in-universe text!

There might even be an ancient civilization there, even one built on sorcery so capable of remarkable things... but its whatever the truth of Azor Ahai with maybe something Asshai and the origins of Valyria. That's what the books support by persistently bringing them up, though Melisandre alone suggests strongly we won't get anything so neat and tidy as say a simple literal connection that there is just the One War between Ice and Fire which the greenseers have already shown to be false. Her point as a character is to have correct information but make sweeping and wrong conclusions because she beats everything into her own views first.

[LmL]

The Casterly Rock one is actually a great example of myth compatibly discernible truth. Tales in the Far East say Casterly Rock is made of gold etc etc. Well, it kind of is - it's a castle built into a gold mine. The Lannisters ARE the richest family in Westeros. So really, the myth is giving basically the right idea, and simply exaggerated. I think when people hear things like this tale of a castle of solid gold, most people dial it back a bit and assume there's a basic truth there. Which there is. The Lannisters live inside a gold mine and are fabulously wealthy because of it.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Ok, well, I think I've basically said my piece on this thread. Other folks can think what they like, and I'll think what I like. We obviously aren't going to come to any definite conclusions here, and that's not the point anyway. It's been pretty cool seeing what everyone thinks on this topic. :-)

[Waiting for Howland]

Civilization in no way, shape, or form has anything even remotely like a common origin

Humanity as hunter-gatherers spread across Earth. By 10,000 BC-ish we'd walked from Africa to the tip of South America. This was thousands of years before developing agrarian sedentary culture and then civilization. Present historical narrative last I'd checked points to several different first civilizations with the Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley in Pakistan/India, and Yellow River in China. Then of course in the Americas many centuries later and possibly a couple times there. The best answer for why "later" is found in Guns Germs and Steel a book everyone should read. All show little to zero connection to one another. Even if say you can compact a few as hypothetically stealing from one another that still leaves "the Middle-East" plus China plus Mesoamerica and is a terrible disservice to the Indus Valley.

And that's not to say its some kind of linear descent where say everyone European has Sumerian or Egyptian ancestors. Or that they Europeans simply picked it up from established civilizations. Actual history get more complicated with important elements like a particular invention invented independently in more then one place. Something like gunpowder which to the best of our knowledge has only been invented once before the industrial period and spread everywhere is the exception not the rule.

Concepts like a "Cradle of Civilization" are basically big damned lies, or more specifically lingering Eurocentric narratives of now dubious scholarship sadly still probably in places like HS textbooks.

If you wish to argue that GRRM is a history buff and it influences his writing then that is actively disproving any sort of common origin theory or simple explanation... because history is the opposite its a jumbled complicated mess when if you restrict yourself to nominally the scientifically verifiable. It is still more an art then a science in many cases.

A problem that grows worse not better by having myths be real in some but not all cases like in ASoIaF.

Which of course is the probably the point... there is no central explanation. Planetos lives and breath echoing history in countless ways.

Sorry I don't have as extensive a knowledge as u in ancient mankind, but if ur denying the fact that in multiple places in our world there aren't 'stories' like say a flood that are shared between completely different continents, religions, cultures..... Hmmm just like azor ahai, the last hero, etc.

All im sayin is George knows this and im sure used this concept with these legends and points from different tellings could be used to HELP understand the history of planetos, not the whole story or the perfectly accurate retelling of history. And i could buy into people drawing some connections between them, maybe not every detail because they are stories but at the least the general outline.

Otherwise its pointless STORY TELLING, canon or not. This isnt real life. Why would an author write so much random and pointless histories of things that didnt happen or affect his story, just to be THAT REALISTIC when his story has magic in it lol.

[Waiting for Howland]

Especially when he has two books to write that r completely unrelated to these 'useless' stories

[LmL]

Well you're like a week late Waiting for Howland but, yes, everything you said and more. It's called comparative mythology, and Simon's dismissal of it reflects a certain... viewpoint, to be sure. Wikipedia actually has a great definition of comparative mythology as well as some of the main universal archetypes. They are well known to most every author, certainly any good fiction / fantasy author. You'll notice that everything is tied to astronomy and nature at some level.

[Waiting for Howland]

I know its late my apologizes lol. Im no expert clearly, but its just logical. The amount of similarities in these mythologies (more than even in our own history) has to do with something real and tangible and its foolish to dismiss it. And it was clearly planned otherwise he wouldnt have made a world book at all, let alone from perspective. It has purpose, as the silmarilion was a fact-fictional book. Martin is just more vague with his perspective alowing us lots of things to discuss and more mystery lol what a great guy lol but back to the OP great post and a lot to think about, thanks