Magic, Renly, buggery, murder

[Nightflyer]

Renly, the flamboyant, beautiful prince, and self proclaimed king. He was probably in his late twenties when he died. There seems little doubt he had homosexual sex with Loras. And little doubt that Loras loved Renly.

But what about Loras? He's still only a teenager. And Renly used him as a squire since he was a small boy. It's likely that Loras was in fact the victim of a sexual predator from childhood. A predator who took advantage of his power over a child who loved him. This would have begun before the boy ever had a chance to discover his own sexuality for himself.

Thanks to the flamboyant, careless Renly, Loras's reputation is ruined. Still young (17?) he is considered spoiled, unfit for marriage by the other houses. Did Loras intend to die storming that castle? How does a teenager come to the point of hating life that much?

At some point the Tyrells, Mace and Olenna must have learned about Renly's sexual orientation. They would not have agreed to Margery's marriage to Renly if they had known beforehand, since the whole point was to have a Tyrell grandchild on the Iron Throne one day. After Margery's bedding, they could hardly remain unaware. Poor Margery must have been very confused, even if she wasn't completely naive about sexual practices when she wed. She didn't lose her maidenhead that night, but I'm sure Renly still had a good time...

So Mace and Olenna learn the truth. Renly is just putting on a show, he's just playing at being a king. (Stannis says much the same) He will not give Mace the heir that he wants so much. He is sexually abusing not one, but two Tyrell teens, as they would see it. Renly has ruined Loras reputation, and if things continue, he will likely ruin Margery's reputation as well. For some reason these highbornes worry about things like dishonor...

The point being, after Renly's bedding of Margery, Mace and Olenna now know this alliance is a very bad deal. They have every reason to end it as soon as possible, before more damage is done. Olenna says she argued against the wedding in the first place, since it was technically treason. She must have had a good time telling Mace, "I told you so", before getting down to business. In short, the Tyrells have every reason to murder Renly.

But wait, wasn't Renly murdered by magic, by a shadow? Sent by his brother Stannis, burning leeches? When Stannis pronounced his curses upon Renly, Robb and Joffrey, he asked Melisandre, "did it work?" And her reply is "yes, and no". I believe this is because Melisandre knows that the shadows don't kill people directly. The shadows kill by arranging events so that people die.

Look at Joffrey, who obviously died by a murder plot. There was a thin black dog sniffing at his corpse. Thats where the shadow was. Look at Robb, stabbed by a a man whom we believe is Roose Bolton. Roose's armor is dark because again, thats where the shadow was.

In the case of Robb and Joffrey we can see that shadows did not kill them directly. But surely Renly's death was different? Wasn't his throat, and his gorget severed by a blow too powerful to have been made by any man? Well as Melisandre would say, yes and no.

We've seen the Tyrells had a strong motive to murder Renly. Suppose they prepared a deadly gorget, a murder device? Was there ever a chance to tamper with Renly's armor?

Yes there was. When Catelyn visited Renly, he lent her the use of his tent for the night, because he decided the nearby castle would be more comfortable. And flamboyant, careless Renly left his beautiful, distinctive green armor in the tent that night. Catelyn and her people have no reason to guard it.

So in a sense Brienne did kill Renly, no wonder Vary's little birds are confused. The next day, Brienne helped Renly don his armor, including the gorget that the Tyrells had replaced with a murder device. And of course the shadows were there as well.

If something like this happened than the shadow curse killed all three usurpers in a similar way. And later on, when Garlan played Renly's ghost in battle using his armor, they would need another gorget wouldn't they? So they simply replaced the trick gorget with the real one, which they had saved. And "Renlys ghost" would actually be the second time the Tyrells played tricks with Renlys armor. Naturally Loras could not know any of this.

[Bazzlebane]

Nightflyer, not even you believe this theory is true ... you're just trying to maintain your reputation for outlandish and original interepretations. The method of Renly's murder was made abundantly clear in the telling of the tale.

[Ser Romin]

This thread fails at what you were trying to accomplish Nightflyer. Your past threads have worked (somewhat) because you've attempted to tackle issues that weren't as clearly laid out as Renly's death.

[cklabyrinth]

Nightflyer, not even you believe this theory is true ... you're just trying to maintain your reputation for outlandish and original interepretations. The method of Renly's murder was made abundantly clear in the telling of the tale.

I don't think social construction of crime in the medieval ages would include statutory rape, seeing as how girls were married at early ages, by our considerations, to men sometimes three or four times their age. The only thing abnormal about Renly and Loras's relationship was that it was homosexual. Were Loras a gir there would be no controversy. . . at least, back then.

[Houndred]

How does a teenager come to the point of hating life that much?

You aren't around many teenagers are you?

[Thomas Day]

Interesting theory. Fun, and it would be great if we could cast out magic in general; but im not sold. Why side with the Lannisters, whom Stannis was preparing to attack with much of Renly's army, and not the Starks who had done nothing but win all the battles they had fought?

[Mad Monkey]

Thanks to the flamboyant, careless Renly, Loras's reputation is ruined. Still young (17?) he is considered spoiled, unfit for marriage by the other houses. Did Loras intend to die storming that castle? How does a teenager come to the point of hating life that much?

What happened to his reputation? Loras's orientation doesn't appear to be well-known, and even if it was, Loras is still an extremely-skilled knight. He could rise high in Joffrey Tommen's Kingsguard and become a famous tourney knight. I don't think that he truly intended to die storming that castle; he's still at that age when he feels himself invincible.

In short, the Tyrells have every reason to murder Renly.

Not really. The Renly-Margaery match was a political marriage. Renly should have no problem impregnating Margaery at least once; that's all he needs to cement his alliance with Highgarden. All he has to do his close his eyes and pretend it's Loras. And then after she's with child then he's essentially free to do whoever whatever he wants. Tywin mentioned that it's perfectly within a husband's rights to never bed his wife again after the consummation.

I believe this is because Melisandre knows that the shadows don't kill people directly. The shadows kill by arranging events so that people die.

That's an interesting idea, and it could work for the other two deaths, if we hadn't seen exactly what happened to them. I don't think that Melisandre used a shadow for all 3 deaths. Roose Bolton stabbed Robb, but he didn't need a shadow for that. Joffrey was poisoned. Renly was the only one we saw with an actual, visible shadow opening up his throat.

And Renly used him as a squire since he was a small boy. It's likely that Loras was in fact the victim of a sexual predator from childhood. A predator who took advantage of his power over a child who loved him. This would have begun before the boy ever had a chance to discover his own sexuality for himself.

I agree that Renly is a horrible person, but that's no reason to expect that he was taking advantage of Loras that early on. Remember, Renly is only five years older than Loras, and not a good deal more mature. If anyone was a victim of him, it was probably Stannis.

[Angus Niven]

How exactly do you propose for the Tyrells to replace Renly's gorget with one that would split open "like chessecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there", without either Renly or Brienne noticing something odd about it as they were putting it on?

Also, recall that:

a) The burning of the leeches occurred after Renly's death (hell, after the Battle of the Blackwater) - it was directed at Joffrey, Robb, and Balon Greyjoy, not Renly.

We've directly seen Melisandre create shadows that kill (see Ser Cortnay Penrose), and in the same seen, she outright admitted to doing Renly in the same way.

[Jon Blackfyre]

okay, Renly was not in his late 20's when he died, not near a decade older than Loras.

Renly was 22, 23 at the most when he died, Loras was 17...that's 5 or 6 years. Let's just say they met when Renly was 18, making Loras 12 or 13. That may not be right, but it is hardly a sexual predator twisting an sexually unaware child to deviant behavior.

I am only speaking for myself here, but at 13 I knew I liked girls...and keeping that in mind I don't think Renly "forced" homosexuality on Loras. We know from the text that Loras was in love with him so you're stretching it to say he was a victim. When his younger sister is fit to be wedded and bedded it's silly to think Loras wasn't making his own decisions about who he was taking to bed. This isn't a Micheal Jackson like case where a 30 or 40 year old grown man was sleeping with a little boy.

and as to the rest, well others have already pointed out the obvious...Stannis planted a shadow baby in Mel and that shadow baby killed Renly. Says so in the book, maybe you should read it again to clarify the controversy in your mind.

[Tysha]

Renly, the flamboyant, beautiful prince, and self proclaimed king. He was probably in his late twenties when he died. There seems little doubt he had homosexual sex with Loras. And little doubt that Loras loved Renly.

But what about Loras? He's still only a teenager. And Renly used him as a squire since he was a small boy. It's likely that Loras was in fact the victim of a sexual predator from childhood. A predator who took advantage of his power over a child who loved him. This would have begun before the boy ever had a chance to discover his own sexuality for himself.

There's your first problem - Renly was 21 when he died, not in his late twenties. Loras was 16 at the time, giving them an age gap of 5 years.

I'm sure it says somewhere that Loras was 12 when he began squiring for Renly, which would have made Renly 17. In other words, they were both horny adolescent boys when they met. Add to that the fact that 12 (and we're assuming here that their relationship started soon after they met and not, say, a year or two later) is a perfectly acceptable age to marry and have children in Westeros, and Renly was hardly a predatory pederast.

Thanks to the flamboyant, careless Renly, Loras's reputation is ruined. Still young (17?) he is considered spoiled, unfit for marriage by the other houses. Did Loras intend to die storming that castle? How does a teenager come to the point of hating life that much?

Bollocks was it! How many people are still utterly clueless about Loras and Renly's relationship? It's quicker to count the people who do seem to know - the Tyrells, Stannis, probably Robert if Stannis knew (I can't recall right now if there's anything in the text to indicate he knew) and Jaime.

It's not common knowledge. Sansa, Ned, Catelyn, Brienne, none of them knew. Cersei doesn't know - she suspects Loras and Margaery are sleeping together. Even the normally savvy Tyrion doesn't realise.

Loras joins the Kingsguard out of choice. Because, as he tells Tyrion, "Once the sun has set, no candle can replace it." And being the third son with no real need to marry, no-one objects to his choice.

At some point the Tyrells, Mace and Olenna must have learned about Renly's sexual orientation. They would not have agreed to Margery's marriage to Renly if they had known beforehand, since the whole point was to have a Tyrell grandchild on the Iron Throne one day. After Margery's bedding, they could hardly remain unaware. Poor Margery must have been very confused, even if she wasn't completely naive about sexual practices when she wed. She didn't lose her maidenhead that night, but I'm sure Renly still had a good time...

Except that everything indicates the Tyrells know bloody well that Loras is gay. Look at what Garlan says at Tyrion and Sansa's wedding: "Loras is valiant and handsome and we all love him dearly ... but your Imp will make a better husband, I think." There's just acceptance there. Weary acceptance perhaps but acceptance nonetheless.

If the Tyrell's were desperate enough to kill Renly to save Loras's reputation, why didn't they insist on him marrying once Renly was dead?

Mace Tyrell wants his daughter to marry the king, yes. Hence she is currently on her third king. As long as Renly got Margaery pregnant a few times, and he and Loras mastered the art of discretion, the Tyrells would happily haved turned a blind eye to the men's relationship.

But wait, wasn't Renly murdered by magic, by a shadow? Sent by his brother Stannis, burning leeches? When Stannis pronounced his curses upon Renly, Robb and Joffrey, he asked Melisandre, "did it work?" And her reply is "yes, and no". I believe this is because Melisandre knows that the shadows don't kill people directly. The shadows kill by arranging events so that people die.

And here's problem number 2 - the leeches don't get burned until ASoS, long after Renly has been killed. It was Balon, Robb and Joffrey who were killed by them.

Look at Joffrey, who obviously died by a murder plot. There was a thin black dog sniffing at his corpse. Thats where the shadow was. Look at Robb, stabbed by a a man whom we believe is Roose Bolton. Roose's armor is dark because again, thats where the shadow was.

It's a dog that is not a dog, it is evil manifest.

Sorry, couldn't resist...

The dog is just a dog. The armour is just dark metal. There are no shadows involved. The shadow which killed Renly was a very literal shadow, not some vague dark thing.

We've seen the Tyrells had a strong motive to murder Renly. Suppose they prepared a deadly gorget, a murder device? Was there ever a chance to tamper with Renly's armor?

Yes there was. When Catelyn visited Renly, he lent her the use of his tent for the night, because he decided the nearby castle would be more comfortable. And flamboyant, careless Renly left his beautiful, distinctive green armor in the tent that night. Catelyn and her people have no reason to guard it.

So in a sense Brienne did kill Renly, no wonder Vary's little birds are confused. The next day, Brienne helped Renly don his armor, including the gorget that the Tyrells had replaced with a murder device. And of course the shadows were there as well.

I think you need to look again at the sequence of events because this really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

In my UK paperback copy of ACoK, it says:

"Renly lifted his chin to allow Brienne to fasten his gorget..."

at the bottom of page 365. Renly doesn't die until the top of page 367. Seems to be an awfully long time to be wandering around wearing a gorget that can cut his throat.

Also, of you actually look closely at Renly's death it is very clear that there is a shadow in the room:

"[Catelyn] heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword..."

And then his gorget is cut "beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there." It's pretty unambiguous.

[Ran]

I won't close this thread, but just a general note that this is clearly the most heinous sort of crackpot theory trolling, for the benefit of those who are inclined to try and take it too seriously.

[Nightflyer]

I don't think social construction of crime in the medieval ages would include statutory rape, seeing as how girls were married at early ages, by our considerations, to men sometimes three or four times their age. The only thing abnormal about Renly and Loras's relationship was that it was homosexual. Were Loras a gir there would be no controversy. . . at least, back then.

I didn't say that Renly's sexual predation would be considered a crime. I did say that he had spoiled Loras's reputation. The Tyrells can no longer wed Loras to another great house, or apparently any of the lesser houses, either. They need to break up Renly's marriage to Margery before her reputation is ruined too.

If Renly had started raping a highborne girl child, there would be a controvery. The house concerned would care about their dishonor, if Renly didnt marry the girl. The houses want their daughters in legitimate marriages, not used as whores. And their sons too.

[Nightflyer]

okay, Renly was not in his late 20's when he died, not near a decade older than Loras.

Renly was 22, 23 at the most when he died, Loras was 17...that's 5 or 6 years. Let's just say they met when Renly was 18, making Loras 12 or 13. That may not be right, but it is hardly a sexual predator twisting an sexually unaware child to deviant behavior.

I am only speaking for myself here, but at 13 I knew I liked girls...and keeping that in mind I don't think Renly "forced" homosexuality on Loras. We know from the text that Loras was in love with him so you're stretching it to say he was a victim. When his younger sister is fit to be wedded and bedded it's silly to think Loras wasn't making his own decisions about who he was taking to bed. This isn't a Micheal Jackson like case where a 30 or 40 year old grown man was sleeping with a little boy.

and as to the rest, well others have already pointed out the obvious...Stannis planted a shadow baby in Mel and that shadow baby killed Renly. Says so in the book, maybe you should read it again to clarify the controversy in your mind.

I can see some work is needed on Renly's age, I will look into that. Robert and Stannis were grown men during the war of the usurper 15 years ago, but the youngest brother was 6 or 7? I would have thought the 3 brothers were closer in age.

Apart from his relationship with Renly, did Loras show any other evidence of homosexual tendencies? He does wear flowery armor, but that doesnt mean much, because the rose is the Tyrell sigil. Anything else? Where is the strong evidence that Loras would have practiced homosexuality without Renly?

You realized you liked girls at age 13. How would you feel if an older gay man, in a strong position of authority over you, had started having sex with you at that age? I think at the least you would be very confused. Perhaps you would even try to kill yourself by age 17, as Loras apparently did. There's also the issue that not every teenager becomes sexually mature at age 13. There is variation, it can occur as early as 10 or as late as 17.

As for the shadow killing Renly, just how is that done? Does anyone know? If the shadows are so powerful that they can kill directly, why didnt that happen to Joffrey and Robb too?

[Kimera757]

I won't close this thread, but just a general note that this is clearly the most heinous sort of crackpot theory trolling, for the benefit of those who are inclined to try and take it too seriously.

If it's heinous trolling, why aren't you closing the thread?

[Nightflyer]

I won't close this thread, but just a general note that this is clearly the most heinous sort of crackpot theory trolling, for the benefit of those who are inclined to try and take it too seriously.

Sorry if my subject matter offended you Ran, I think I'm raising some legitimate issues here. The view that all men are either straight or gay, and that a light bulb goes on at age 13 is a gross oversimplification, in my opinion. Its more realistic to say there is a spectrum of sexuality with each man falling at a different point on the scale. Simplistic binary thinking should be avoided.

[Kimera757]

Sorry if my subject matter offended you Ran, I think I'm raising some legitimate issues here. The view that all men are either straight or gay, and that a light bulb goes on at age 13 is a gross oversimplification, in my opinion. Its more realistic to say there is a spectrum of sexuality with each man falling at a different point on the scale. Simplistic binary thinking should be avoided.

Do you have a biological theory to back this up? And, perhaps even more importantly, do you know what GRRM thinks of sexuality? It's his book. It's already got fantasy genetics, so it could just as easily have "fantasy sexuality".

I can tell you that, gross oversimplication or not, my light bulb went off at age seven (straight) with no "wobble". Even if not everyone flips on a light bulb, some people do. But that's not even important. What is important is what GRRM thinks, as these are his words we are talking about.

[Nightflyer]

There's your first problem - Renly was 21 when he died, not in his late twenties. Loras was 16 at the time, giving them an age gap of 5 years.

I'm sure it says somewhere that Loras was 12 when he began squiring for Renly, which would have made Renly 17. In other words, they were both horny adolescent boys when they met. Add to that the fact that 12 (and we're assuming here that their relationship started soon after they met and not, say, a year or two later) is a perfectly acceptable age to marry and have children in Westeros, and Renly was hardly a predatory pederast.

Bollocks was it! How many people are still utterly clueless about Loras and Renly's relationship? It's quicker to count the people who do seem to know - the Tyrells, Stannis, probably Robert if Stannis knew (I can't recall right now if there's anything in the text to indicate he knew) and Jaime.

It's not common knowledge. Sansa, Ned, Catelyn, Brienne, none of them knew. Cersei doesn't know - she suspects Loras and Margaery are sleeping together. Even the normally savvy Tyrion doesn't realise.

Loras joins the Kingsguard out of choice. Because, as he tells Tyrion, "Once the sun has set, no candle can replace it." And being the third son with no real need to marry, no-one objects to his choice.

Except that everything indicates the Tyrells know bloody well that Loras is gay. Look at what Garlan says at Tyrion and Sansa's wedding: "Loras is valiant and handsome and we all love him dearly ... but your Imp will make a better husband, I think." There's just acceptance there. Weary acceptance perhaps but acceptance nonetheless.

If the Tyrell's were desperate enough to kill Renly to save Loras's reputation, why didn't they insist on him marrying once Renly was dead?

Mace Tyrell wants his daughter to marry the king, yes. Hence she is currently on her third king. As long as Renly got Margaery pregnant a few times, and he and Loras mastered the art of discretion, the Tyrells would happily haved turned a blind eye to the men's relationship.

And here's problem number 2 - the leeches don't get burned until ASoS, long after Renly has been killed. It was Balon, Robb and Joffrey who were killed by them.

It's a dog that is not a dog, it is evil manifest.

Sorry, couldn't resist...

The dog is just a dog. The armour is just dark metal. There are no shadows involved. The shadow which killed Renly was a very literal shadow, not some vague dark thing.

I think you need to look again at the sequence of events because this really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

In my UK paperback copy of ACoK, it says:

"Renly lifted his chin to allow Brienne to fasten his gorget..."

at the bottom of page 365. Renly doesn't die until the top of page 367. Seems to be an awfully long time to be wandering around wearing a gorget that can cut his throat.

Also, of you actually look closely at Renly's death it is very clear that there is a shadow in the room:

"[Catelyn] heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword..."

And then his gorget is cut "beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there." It's pretty unambiguous.

If the shadow of a blade crosses your throat, will you die? No, not if shadows cannot kill directly, which is what I am suggesting. Also, I am not suggesting that the shadow wasn't there, in fact I am pointing out the darkness present at the death of the other two usurpers cursed by Stannis. And the shadow baby you mentioned was sent after the lord holding storms end, you are assuming that the shadow in Renly's tent was made the same way. This need not be so, the shadows in Mirri's tent for instance were summoned some other way. (Unless she did have an accomplice sneak into the tent after all.)

No idea how a gorget might be gimmicked to cut a man's throat, or how long it would take, but it is possible. Renly armor was left unprotected overnight, and the Tyrells do have a motive. If I put a deadly gorget on someone, I could wave my hand at the right time, and "kill" them with my shadow too. And the gullible would believe I had powerful magic, and be afraid of my shadow after that.

Also, no matter how you slice it, there must have been two gorgets made for Renly's armor, since the first one was destroyed. And if the Tyrells did sever Margery's marriage to Renly, over homosexuality, what would be their first concern with Joffrey? Joffrey was supposed to be a Baratheon too, by name at least. And Renly would have spent time with this "nephew" as well. The Tyrells would want to find out as soon as possible about Joffrey's own sexual orientation, which gives a new urgency to their questioning of Sansa. Since Sansa couldn't really tell them, it would probably fall to Margery to find out. The Tyrells need to know for sure. On Joffrey's part, Tywin ordered him to concern himself with no head but Margery's maidenhead. And later of course Margery is drinking moon tea, and is confirmed to no longer be a virgin.

The shadows are magical, and real. What I question is whether they have direct physical effects. And what I suggest is that all three usurper deaths had shadows present, were the result of Stannis's curse, and resulted from the shadows influencing human murder plots. GRRM put the thin black dog and the dark armor in Joffrey's and Robb's murder scenes for a reason. They are not just random and unrelated. Their darkness provides a place for shadows to hide, and corresponds with the shadows in Renly's tent.

It's funny, I point out that Renly's death may be a trick, and people take exception to that. And then when I point out the darkness present at the other two murders, people object to that too. To me it looks like people just havent considered these events in this way before, and are refusing to consider them now.

[Tysha]

*sigh* I knew I shouldn't have bothered getting into this...

If the shadow of a blade crosses your throat, will you die? No, not if shadows cannot kill directly, which is what I am suggesting.

No, shadows cannot kill. Hence why Brienne and Catelyn freak out so much and why people don't believe Brienne's story. The shadow that killed Renly - and yes, it did do it directly - was magical.

Also, I am not suggesting that the shadow wasn't there, in fact I am pointing out the darkness present at the death of the other two usurpers cursed by Stannis. And the shadow baby you mentioned was sent after the lord holding storms end, you are assuming that the shadow in Renly's tent was made the same way. This need not be so, the shadows in Mirri's tent for instance were summoned some other way. (Unless she did have an accomplice sneak into the tent after all.)

I know when Davos saw the shadow baby being made. You, however, seem to have failed to notice either in the books or in my post that the curse Stannis cast came months after Renly died.

No idea how a gorget might be gimmicked to cut a man's throat, or how long it would take, but it is possible. Renly armor was left unprotected overnight, and the Tyrells do have a motive. If I put a deadly gorget on someone, I could wave my hand at the right time, and "kill" them with my shadow too. And the gullible would believe I had powerful magic, and be afraid of my shadow after that.

So you think Renly was wandering around for about ten minutes wearing a very tight gorget around his neck that had been tampered with in such a way that it would cut his throat, but said tampering would not be noticeable to anyone who looked at it or handled it or wore it? Careful you don't hurt your arm with all this reaching...

The shadows are magical, and real. What I question is whether they have direct physical effects. And what I suggest is that all three usurper deaths had shadows present, were the result of Stannis's curse, and resulted from the shadows influencing human murder plots. GRRM put the thin black dog and the dark armor in Joffrey's and Robb's murder scenes for a reason. They are not just random and unrelated. Their darkness provides a place for shadows to hide, and corresponds with the shadows in Renly's tent.

Once again - Renly died before the curse.

If GRRM wanted us to connect those murders to shadows, he would have put actual shadows in there. The shadow which kills Renly is absolutely, 100% a freaky, magical shadow. It's not ambiguous in any way, it's not hidden in the description of something else, it's a shadow. The dog and the armour are not out of place in the scene, there is nothing odd about them, no-one even notices them. They are not mystical or hiding shadows. They are nothing to do with Renly's death.

Balon, Robb and Joffrey were all killed after Stannis's curse. How much influence that curse had, and how much of their deaths were influenced by human plots, is open for interpretation by each reader. But Renly was the only one murdered directly by Stannis.

Also:

I can see some work is needed on Renly's age, I will look into that. Robert and Stannis were grown men during the war of the usurper 15 years ago, but the youngest brother was 6 or 7? I would have thought the 3 brothers were closer in age.

The only work you need do is read the book. It's there very clearly in ACoK, about halfway through Catelyn's second chapter page 250 in my copy, "Renly was one-and-twenty."

Horny teenage boy, not a sexual predator.

[Edric Dayne]

Also, no matter how you slice it, there must have been two gorgets made for Renly's armor, since the first one was destroyed. And if the Tyrells did sever Margery's marriage to Renly, over homosexuality, what would be their first concern with Joffrey? Joffrey was supposed to be a Baratheon too, by name at least. And Renly would have spent time with this "nephew" as well. The Tyrells would want to find out as soon as possible about Joffrey's own sexual orientation, which gives a new urgency to their questioning of Sansa. Since Sansa couldn't really tell them, it would probably fall to Margery to find out. The Tyrells need to know for sure. On Joffrey's part, Tywin ordered him to concern himself with no head but Margery's maidenhead. And later of course Margery is drinking moon tea, and is confirmed to no longer be a virgin.

And here we find the point of this nonsense. As he frequently does NF has invented a new theory to help support his older theories. Here the Tyrells murder Renly because he's gay which leads them to question Sansa if Joff is gay, not whether or not he is a monster likely to hurt Margery. This in turn leads to Margery having to test Joff's sexuality, so they must have been having sex. All of which, I imagine, leads to NF's conclusion that the Tyrells weren't trying to kill Joff at the wedding.

Expect to start seeing him claim the Tyrells murdered Renly in any threads relating to Joff's wedding.

[Jon Blackfyre]

I can see some work is needed on Renly's age, I will look into that. Robert and Stannis were grown men during the war of the usurper 15 years ago, but the youngest brother was 6 or 7? I would have thought the 3 brothers were closer in age.

Apart from his relationship with Renly, did Loras show any other evidence of homosexual tendencies? He does wear flowery armor, but that doesnt mean much, because the rose is the Tyrell sigil. Anything else? Where is the strong evidence that Loras would have practiced homosexuality without Renly?

You realized you liked girls at age 13. How would you feel if an older gay man, in a strong position of authority over you, had started having sex with you at that age? I think at the least you would be very confused. Perhaps you would even try to kill yourself by age 17, as Loras apparently did. There's also the issue that not every teenager becomes sexually mature at age 13. There is variation, it can occur as early as 10 or as late as 17.

As for the shadow killing Renly, just how is that done? Does anyone know? If the shadows are so powerful that they can kill directly, why didnt that happen to Joffrey and Robb too?

wow...

okay, apart from the relationship with Renly, Loras was the epitome of flamboyance. Yeah, his house sigil is a rose, but you don't see Garlan prancing around with a cloak made out of 1000 roses. From all accounts in the books Loras tries to make himself as pretty as Margery. So yes, there is evidence that Loras was fruity...and check this out, after Renly was KILLED BY A MAGICAL SHADOW the evil spell of homosexuality that he wove on Loras was not lifted. Loras prentends to be straight to fit in, like many gay people in real life do. If it wasn't Renly it would have been somebody else, it just so happens that they found each other, and love, when Loras was 12 and Renly was 17.

And to really get to the point of this. At 13 I was perfectly aware of what I wanted in terms of a sex life, not everyone is, as I said in my first post, but many people are. If, at 13, I was the focus of homosexual advances by an older man, lol 18, in a position of power, like say my Jr. High assistant wrestling coach, it would never get to us having sex. I would have kicked him in his crotch and told the first person of real power that I could find. Come on here NF, its not like Renly walked up to Loras the first time he meet him a stuck his dick in his face. If Loras wasn't curious nothing would have happened or Rnely would have been outed. It's silly to assume that Renly caused Loras' homosexuality...maybe Loras was the cause of Renly's...or maybe, just maybe, they were both gay, and when they meet they knew they had found the person they were ment to be with.

and as for the shadow...I'll say it again, Renly was KILLED BY A MAGICAL SHADOW birthed by Mel and fathered by Stannis. Says so right in the book. Just like it says Dany walked into a huge fire and came out with 3 dragons, just like Bran can warg into his pet and the faceless men can morph their image. It's fucking MAGIC!!!! This is a fantasy series afterall.