The Tourney at Harrenhal

[MountainThatRides]

I wanted to start a topic on the Harrenhal Tourney in the year of the False Spring to clarify some of the history for myself, and I'm guessing that this has been discussed before and most of you are probably more knowledgeable on the subject than I am.

We have many accounts of the tourney, none of them very detailed, and the best one is Meera's tale about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, which also happens to be the most vague. This tourney might have been the single most important event in the pre-series history, as it planted the seeds for several major plot arcs and foreshadowed coming events. Anyway, I'm going to list my initial assumptions and hope that you guys can either confirm or correct me on at least some of them.

- Ser Jaime Lannister, recently knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne for his valor against the Kingswood Brotherhood, is given a White Cloak. He is fifteen at the time, and seventeen when he kills Aerys and earns his moniker, leaving a gap of roughly 2 years; the first year seems to deal mainly with Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna and the resulting events, and the second with Robert's rebellion, which lasted slightly less than a year.

- The Lord of Harrenhal was brother of Oswell Whent, a knight of the Kingsguard. Lord Whent's daughter was fair, and numerous men fought for her honor, including her uncle. Do we know her name?

- King Aerys attended, one of the few times he left reclusion in the later part of his reign. Lord Tywin had quarreled with Aerys and did not attend.

- Princess Elia and Prince Rhaegar attended.

- Howland Reed attended. He was attacked by three squires, sworn to knights of House Haigh, Blount and Frey. Lyanna Stark defended him, beating his attackers with a tourney sword. Sounds like another Stark girl I know. Afterward, Howland met her brothers, Brandon (the wild wolf), Eddard (the quiet wolf), and Benjen (the young pup), and the sons of the Stark in Winterfell, to whom he himself was sworn. Howland attended the feast with the Starks, and formed a friendship with all of them (particularly Eddard) later echoed at the Tower of Joy, with further results to be revealed later in the series.

- Howland ate with the Starks and their bannermen, the Cerwyns, Mormonts and Manderlys, and others besides.

- Rhaegar sang a sad song that made Lyanna cry. Perhaps it was his song of Summerhall, or the Song of Ice and Fire. Benjen teased Lyanna about this and she poured her wine cup over his head. Definitely an Arya response.

- A Black Brother attempted to recruit men to the Night's Watch. Was this Yoren?

- The storm lord outdrank the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The storm lord is a young Robert Baratheon, as Lord Steffon was already dead by this point. Who is the knight of skulls and kisses?

- The maid with laughing purple eyes was Ashara Dayne. She danced with a white sword (either her brother Ser Arthur or perhaps Prince Lewyn Martell), a red snake (Oberyn Martell), the lord of griffins (Rhaegar's friend Connington) and the quiet wolf (Eddard). Brandon must have known that Eddard found Ashara beautiful or was smitten with her, but was too shy to ask her to dance himself, so he asked her for him. At this point Brandon was betrothed to Catelyn Tully and perhaps Eddard fell in love with Ashara during the tournament.

- The Knight of the Laughing Tree, a mystery knight, defeated a Blount, a Haigh and a Frey, the knights whose squires attacked Howland Reed. This was possibly Howland Reed himself, as the knight was said to be short of stature. However, he was not trained with the lance; perhaps it was a young Eddard Stark fighting in his stead.

- The mystery knight vanished, leaving Rhaegar Targaryen to win the tournament and crown Lyanna Stark as his queen of love and beauty. The relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna apparently began at this point, culminating later in Rhaegar's "abduction with her", though we do not know whether she was truly abducted or if she went willingly. It's possible that they even eloped, as Targaryen bigamy was rare but not unprecedented.

- I don't know for certain but I assume Robert Baratheon won the great mêlée.

The implications of the tournament regarding both Eddard's relationship with the Lady Ashara and Jon Snow's parentage seem to be known, in entirety, only by Howland Reed, who was perhaps Eddard's most loyal friend. He was at the Tower of Joy and knew the secret of Lyanna's bed of blood, regardless of whether she was Jon Snow's mother or not. The Reeds are incredulous that Bran had never heard the tale from his father, just as Edric Dayne cannot believe that Arya knows nothing of Ned's relationship with Ashara. Eddard, Ashara, Wylla, Lyanna, Rhaegar, Ser Arthur and the other Kingsguard present, Howland Reed and Eddard's other companions all figure as players, prominent or otherwise, in Lyanna's abduction and death, Jon Snow's birth, and the "ice and fire" prophecy.

Another slightly related question; is Darkstar unable to wield Dawn because he is of a lesser branch of House Dayne, or because he is simply not fit to be the Sword of the Morning? Is it possible that the Daynes groom potential Swords of the Morning for the role, meaning that Edric is currently in mind to one day wield Dawn? Was he sent to squire for Lord Beric, or did that happen by accident? It would seem strange for a Dornish noble house to send their heir to squire for a Marcher lord, even a house like the Daynes of Starfall, who seem to have more in common with Targaryens than Dornishmen.

[Rockroi]

- The Lord of Harrenhal was brother of Oswell Whent, a knight of the Kingsguard. Lord Whent's daughter was fair, and numerous men fought for her honor, including her uncle. Do we know her name?

Half-right. Oswald Whent was not the Lord of Harrenhal. His brother was and his niece was the maid of honor. That maid was Lady Whent who is still alive, IIRC, at the time ACoK starts.

- A Black Brother attempted to recruit men to the Night's Watch. Was this Yoren?

It could be, but probably was not. We don’t know, but that theory has not been foreclosed upon.

- The Knight of the Laughing Tree, a mystery knight, defeated a Blount, a Haigh and a Frey, the knights whose squires attacked Howland Reed. This was possibly Howland Reed himself, as the knight was said to be short of stature. However, he was not trained with the lance; perhaps it was a young Eddard Stark fighting in his stead.

There are approximately 5,902 threads on this board describing the Knight of the Laughing Tree (KotLT) and the theories on that knight’s identity. I have stated many times that I firmly believe the KotLT was Lyanna Stark. My evidence is scant, but I have always maintained that of all the information we know or can infer on the KotLT’s identity, some of it eliminates some people while it includes others. None of the evidence eliminates Lyanna while all of it, to this point, leaves her as viable possibility.

A brief recitation of the evidence I feel points to Lyanna:

-Lyanna was a great rider (somebody at WF claims Arya rides a horse as good as Lyanna); Jaime states that tourneys are decided more by the skills with a horse than that of the Lance. Must point out that Howland Reed is not a good horse rider.

-Lyanna only defeated three Knights, and many characters in the books- Mormont, Jaime, Sandor, Selmy, etc claim that tourneys are as much luck as anything else.

-The KotLT keeps his/her helm on the whole time. Why? If it were a male character there would be no harm in revealing who he was. But if it was a female?

-The “booming” voice was hidden by the helm. As Cat notices in CoK, she thinks Brienne is a male EVEN AFTER Brienne speaks through her dented helm when she defeats the Knight of Flowers.

-Lyanna had serious interaction with Howland the day before. Why would ANY other character risk all that with a man they had vitually no contact with? This eliminates amost every single character who is not a Stark.

- The mystery knight vanished, leaving Rhaegar Targaryen to win the tournament and crown Lyanna Stark as his queen of love and beauty. The relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna apparently began at this point, culminating later in Rhaegar's "abduction with her", though we do not know whether she was truly abducted or if she went willingly. It's possible that they even eloped, as Targaryen bigamy was rare but not unprecedented.

The point you are leaving out is that the KotLT caused a stir and there was a desire to unmask him, leaving Areys to order Rhaegar to find the KotLT declaring the knight was “no friend of mine.” Rhagear went out, but returned claiming that he could not find the KotLT. I maintain this was a lie. I state that Rhaegar found the KotLT, that he discovered the Knight’s identity to be Lyanna Stark AND THAT is when he fell in love with her! That would then explain WHY Rhagear gave Lyanna the garland of roses after he won the tournament.

Otherwise, when did Rhaegar find the opportunity to fall in love with Lyanna? The Starks are notoriously isolated- they do not go to Court. When was Rhaegar going to meet her? Unless, of course, he tracked her down.

- I don't know for certain but I assume Robert Baratheon won the great mêlée.

He did. I believe this is mentioned by Eddard at some point.

The implications of the tournament regarding both Eddard's relationship with the Lady Ashara and Jon Snow's parentage seem to be known, in entirety, only by Howland Reed, who was perhaps Eddard's most loyal friend. He was at the Tower of Joy and knew the secret of Lyanna's bed of blood, regardless of whether she was Jon Snow's mother or not. The Reeds are incredulous that Bran had never heard the tale from his father, just as Edric Dayne cannot believe that Arya knows nothing of Ned's relationship with Ashara. Eddard, Ashara, Wylla, Lyanna, Rhaegar, Ser Arthur and the other Kingsguard present, Howland Reed and Eddard's other companions all figure as players, prominent or otherwise, in Lyanna's abduction and death, Jon Snow's birth, and the "ice and fire" prophecy.

Understand this salient point: The entire story of the KotLT is told by Meera with the ASSUMPTION that Bran already knows the story. In other words, the Reeds are SHOCKED that Bran does not know it. Why? I say because they are shocked that Bran would not know a really great story about his aunt, Lyanna Stark who stood up for Howland Reed, then ran down three knights in a tourney.

So why doesn’t Bran know? Why didn’t Ned tell him? Because to tell Bran puts Lyanna another link closer to Rhaegar which puts Jon Snow’s secret THAT much closer to revelation: something Ned LITERALLY died to keep from happening.

[MountainThatRides]

Wow, you just blew my mind. It had never even occurred to me that Lyanna could be the Knight of the Laughing Tree, but now it makes so much sense. Rhaegar went to find the Knight on Aerys's order, after Robert Baratheon and the Knight of Skulls and Kisses (whose identity still eludes me) demanded that he be unmasked. The whole point of a mystery knight is to shock people with the unmasking, as the young Barristan Selmy did; it's also possible, though, to do it with ulterior motives, such as when Aemon the Dragonknight posed as the mysterious Knight of Tears so he could crown his sister Naerys.

However, no one has an ulterior motive her save someone acting on behalf of Howland Reed. And if it was Howland Reed, I see no reason why he would not continue in the tournament, or unmask himself before withdrawing. Eddard might have fit the bill, considering his shyness, but that's assuming he knew about Howland's altercation with the squires and Lyanna's intervention. It would make much more sense with Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, whose admission of her story probably sent Rhaegar into a frenzy of amorous desire and, as you said, sparked their relationship.

So, assuming R+L=J, Eddard Stark swore to Lyanna as she lay dying that he would protect her and Rhaegar's son and raise him as his own; he knew Robert's hatred for the Targaryens and how that put Jon's life in jeopardy (they had just quarreled about that exact thing, concerning the murder of Elia and her children). So telling the KotLT story or the story of Ashara Dayne to his children would have planted ideas in their heads -- ideas which would most certainly have gotten around to Catelyn, who more than anyone had a right to know about Jon Snow's mother. If she supposed Ashara Dayne to be the mother, then Jon would be highborn on both sides, and while still illegitimate, more of a threat to her own sons.

I think that if Ned had told Catelyn the truth, she would have understood, and nothing about her character indicates that a secret of such importance to Ned would be in danger if Catelyn knew it. However, one chance remark slipped could ruin everything, and Ned was probably erring on the side of caution. Imagine if the Lannisters had learned of Jon's parentage and revealed it to Robert -- not only would it place Jon in mortal danger, but would have served to drive a sharp wedge between Robert and Eddard. The only thing Robert hates more than Targaryens (and counting coppers) is the fact that Lyanna might have loved Rhaegar. In all likelihood, Robert did not start out hating Rhaegar; on the contrary, he probably admired him greatly, and looked forward to him ascending the throne and setting the realm to rights after all of Aerys's follies. However, when Rhaegar absconds with Robert's betrothed, he embodies the denial of what Robert believes rightfully his, which leads him to thinking he's not only entitled to Lyanna but also to the Iron Throne. Robert seems like a man who hates not getting what he wants. And more than a crown, or a victory, what he wants most is Lyanna. He rationalizes her relationship with Rhaegar by considering it rape, not wanting to imagine that Lyanna had actually loved Rhaegar, which would be salt in the wound. He killed Rhaegar for taking Lyanna from him, and all he ended up with was a big belly, a hollow existence, deep regrets and bitter memories. Not to mention the Lannisters.

[urizen]

THe knight of skulls and kisses probably was Ser Richard Lonmouth.

[kuroishi]

Thinking back about it recently, I was struck by the fact that the two events that basically set up the usurper war occured at this Tourney : the meeting of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and the fact that Jaime was made a member of the Kingsguard (which estranged Tywin and Aerys, which played a huge role as I think that as a Hand, he would have been able to rein in Aerys and prevent him from doing things like killing the Starks).

Do we have the Curse of Harrenhal to blame ?

[Lady Blackfish]

I thought that the last Lady of Harrenhal was Shella Whent? Shella was mother to the fair maid Whent referred to in the Harrenhal story.

[Phoenix-torn]

- A Black Brother attempted to recruit men to the Night's Watch. Was this Yoren?

My pet theory is that is was Mance but I have no proof to back that up...

@Rockroi

Wonderful breakdown of why KotLT is Lyanna :bowdown:

[Piper]

I wanted to start a topic on the Harrenhal Tourney in the year of the False Spring to clarify some of the history for myself, and I'm guessing that this has been discussed before and most of you are probably more knowledgeable on the subject than I am.

The footnotes to this summary might be helpful with the identities.

[Lummel]

A brief recitation of the evidence I feel points to Lyanna:

-Lyanna was a great rider (somebody at WF claims Arya rides a horse as good as Lyanna); Jaime states that tourneys are decided more by the skills with a horse than that of the Lance. Must point out that Howland Reed is not a good horse rider.

-Lyanna only defeated three Knights, and many characters in the books- Mormont, Jaime, Sandor, Selmy, etc claim that tourneys are as much luck as anything else.

-The KotLT keeps his/her helm on the whole time. Why? If it were a male character there would be no harm in revealing who he was. But if it was a female?

-The "booming" voice was hidden by the helm. As Cat notices in CoK, she thinks Brienne is a male EVEN AFTER Brienne speaks through her dented helm when she defeats the Knight of Flowers.

-Lyanna had serious interaction with Howland the day before. Why would ANY other character risk all that with a man they had vitually no contact with? This eliminates amost every single character who is not a Stark.

The KOTLT keeps their helm on because they are a mystery knight. Male or female once they take their helmet off they can be recognised and identified and the whole point of being a mystery knight is that you are appearing incognito so as not to be recognised.

It's a good round up of evidence as to why the KOTLT is most likely to be a Stark and so it is still an open question as to which Stark did the deed.

[3idcrow]

For me the biggest argument in favor of Lyanna's being KOTLT is Rheagar's immediate attraction to her. The turney was discribed as a very busy place with lots of people, lots of beautiful ladies. Prince's time there was very busy, with people ever seeking his attention, with never a time alone with anyone. There should be some very special occasion that brought him face-to-face with Lyanna, that focused his attention solidly on her, that gave him a reason to be amazed by her and moved as much by her personality as by her beauty. I think discovering her as a KOTLT would be just such an occasion. The rest of KOTLT's features don't contradict this assumption.

[MountainThatRides]

I try to rationalize what Martin has given us and not make too many leaps of faith; the people who frequent these boards love to analyze and dissect, and I'm no exception, but I wonder if sometimes we read too much into things. Maybe certain theories cause us to bristle because we don't like to think of Martin as being obvious, but for the average fan I don't think they're obvious at all. Before I came to these boards I had never considered R+L=J. I had always assumed Jon was the son of Eddard by Ashara Dayne, for whatever reason. Now I can't conceive that Jon is anything but Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, and with that theory foremost in my mind, Lyanna as the KotLT fits like a missing piece in a jigsaw puzzle.

I wouldn't be surprised if Martin turned us all on our heads with the truth, but I'd like it just fine if some of these theories proved out. Especially this one. I can't wait until Howland Reed makes his appearance, with the hope that he'll be somewhat forthcoming with the truth. He's really the only one left who holds all the pieces. Most of the arguments I see, especially to the R+L=J theory, is that they are "too obvious". Maybe they're obvious to us, but if I had never stumbled upon this board I wouldn't have thought so. I like to think that by this point I would have come to the conclusion myself, but maybe not. It doesn't detract at all from Martin's story; those who are aware of these theories will eventually have their answers, and those who aren't will find out the truth eventually.

So I can close the KotLT case, thanks to Rockroi, and stick with that theory until Martin tells me otherwise. There's still a lot of interesting things going on at this tournament and I hope the future books go into greater detail. After looking through a lot of articles and the Wiki, I still don't really know anything about the knight of skulls and kisses/Ser Richard Lonmouth. Maybe he was just a minor character, but he piques my curiosity for some reason.

Thinking back about it recently, I was struck by the fact that the two events that basically set up the usurper war occured at this Tourney : the meeting of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and the fact that Jaime was made a member of the Kingsguard (which estranged Tywin and Aerys, which played a huge role as I think that as a Hand, he would have been able to rein in Aerys and prevent him from doing things like killing the Starks).

Do we have the Curse of Harrenhal to blame ?

I mean, not only did Jaime joining the Kingsguard deepen Aerys and Tywin's estrangement, but it also put him in the position to kill Aerys. Without having Jaime so close, and more or less considering him a hostage, it seems unlikely that Pycelle would have been able to convince the paranoid Aerys to open the gates to the Lannisters and allow for the sack. Aerys simply gambled wrong, trusting Tywin despite having known him for so long, knowing what he was capable of. Without Jaime there to guard the king, it might have been Ser Arthur instead, who wouldn't have died at the Tower of Joy (probably still would have died defending Aerys from the besiegers, or in the ensuing fire if Aerys had gone ahead with that plan). But maybe Eddard wouldn't have had to deliver Dawn to Starfall, where presumably he told Ashara that he was to wed Catelyn Tully, ending their potential relationship; I'm of the opinion that losing both Ned and her brother was what caused Ashara's suicide. And the curse of Harrenhal is a very good point.

I thought that the last Lady of Harrenhal was Shella Whent? Shella was mother to the fair maid Whent referred to in the Harrenhal story.

The current Lady Whent we see in the series seems too old to be the maid from the tournament. If she had been a 'young, fair maid' during the tourney, by the time ACoK rolled around she would have been in her thirties or even forties, but certainly not as old as Shella Whent.

My pet theory is that is was Mance but I have no proof to back that up...

An interesting theory. I'm still curious as to who the recruiter was, because you can presume that he may have made a big impact on Benjen Stark. But the man was said by Meera to have "spoke" about recruitment, whereas Mance would have probably sang. Unless, after Rhaegar had sung, he decided not to. I imagine Rhaegar was a hard act to follow. There's still no reason Benjen Stark had to take the black after Eddard returned to Winterfell, following the rebellion. He could have ruled a holdfast in his brother's name or stayed at Winterfell as castellan or something, but he chose to take the black. I know the north, and the Starks in particular, respect the Night's Watch a great deal, but it still makes me curious as to who made such an impression on Benjen.

[Lummel]

Isn't it enough that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty because he found her the most attractive woman at the Harrenhall tournement?

Otherwise we have to assume either that Rhaegar uniquely recognised her in disguise or that some other unnarrated event occurred such as Rhaegar spotting KOTLT without a helmet. Either of those events would have to be unique since once Aerys II declared the KOTLT to be his enermy there would have been plenty of eager souls out looking for the KOTLT.

Sure there isn't any evidence excluding Lyanna from being KOTLT but I haven't come across any that rules out Benjen or even Eddard from being the KOTLT.

[MountainThatRides]

The assumption is that when Aerys ordered Rhaegar to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree, he did just that. He tracked down the knight, perhaps finding Lyanna taking off the armor. We knew Lyanna was already interested in Rhaegar (she cried during his song and probably considered him very handsome) so perhaps she recounted the entire ordeal to him in confidence. Rhaegar returned and lied, saying he had found no trace of the knight except for the shield hanging from a tree. The private time between Rhaegar and Lyanna would have allowed for their relationship to spark, and gave him cause to crown her queen of love and beauty. Obviously her beauty had something to do with that, but it seems very strange for Rhaegar to crown a young maid from the north rather than his lady wife, Elia of Dorne. A pretty face alone doesn't seem like it would do the trick.

But that's the theory, as far as it goes. It's not concrete evidence either way but it argues pretty heavily for Lyanna. If it wasn't her, it would almost have to be Eddard. Benjen was probably too young at that point to joust, and both Eddard and Lyanna are young enough to give the knight his "short stature", and the only ones who presumably know about Howland Reed's confrontation with the three squires.

Howland's lifelong, steadfast friendship to Eddard might have been built out of gratitude and respect for Lyanna, for what she did. Arya has more than a little of Lyanna in her as it is, and if this were true, they would be even more similar. It's easy to imagine Arya (at Lyanna's age) routing squires with a tourney sword, or entering a tournament as a mystery knight.

Plus, along with being a talented rider (and the aforementioned luck aspect), none of the knights Lyanna unhorsed were particularly talented. They weren't like Rhaegar or Jaime or anything, just average knights. It's quite believable that Lyanna could defeat them in the lists.

[Lummel]

To say that Rhaegar and Lyanna met privately isn't evidence of anything and doesn't argue for anything - it's speculation.

Howland's steadfast friendship with Eddard might have been based on Lyanna having been the KOTLT, or it might have been based on Eddard having been the KOTLT or even loyalty to House Stark his traditional overlord.

Without further revelations from Howland's children or from the man himself we can't definitively prove which of the Stark children was the KOTLT. What we can do is outline the reasons for and against each individual candidature.

Lyanna we are told was a fine horserider and Jaime comments that skill at horseridding is the main component of sucess at jousting. However she has no experience of jousting whereas the three opponants will each have had years of training. How ever much better she is as a horse rider, if she has never couched a lance before she will be at a disadvantage - it would have been lucky for her to win a single joust let alone three.

Eddard and Benjen would have had the training. As the sons of a great lord their training opportunities would probably have been better than the three opponents.

Lyanna was the daughter of one of a handful of great lords in Westeros and fairly close in age to Rhaegar - she would have been a person that he noticed and took note of in any case.

[Datepalm]

Isn't it enough that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty because he found her the most attractive woman at the Harrenhall tournement?

Nooooo! he's married! his wife is sitting right there! Lyanna is barely an adult and maybe engaged by now. Its an incredibly unpolitic thing to do, besides being utterly asshatterish. There needs to be an explanation.

[3idcrow]

To say that Rhaegar and Lyanna met privately isn't evidence of anything and doesn't argue for anything - it's speculation.

Of course it is. All this is nothing but a speculation. This whole board is a speculation. So what?

[Lummel]

Datepalm: True love? Their eyes met while crossing a crowded room, he sang and she wept, oh how romantic it must have been.

[Lummel]

3idcrow,

Not all threads are equally speculative. Some are more speculative than others, some threads are even conclusive and establish facts and understanding about the books.

So what - well the more the argument depends on speculation that is beyond the text the more the question remains open for debate, that's my point. Speculating that Lyanna and Rhaegar met off the page can't prove that they did. They might have done, or maybe not. In either case the question remains currently open.

[3idcrow]

And sinse this question is still open for debate I dare to speculate that a private meeting with Lyanna during which Rheagar had an opportunity to know her a little better would explain his affection to her with more conviction then him just falling a victim of her beauty. There were a lot of beautiful women around and to single out one of them for no apparent reason would be difficult. Anyway, all about the turney of Harrenhal is a speculation based on a chld story and one word is not better then another.

Only one person knows for sure and he is not telling! :D

[moondoggie]

It may be that he crowned her to get close to her for the very first time. BOOM!