Tywin Lannister: The Worst Man in Westeros

[Datepalm]

I ranted a bit about Tywin Lannister in the morality thread, and to my surprise, no one took me up on it. Perhaps some even thought I was kidding. Oh no, ladies and gentlemen, absoloutely not.

Tywin Lannister has a special mix, in both his public actions as a politician and a military commander, and, crucially, in his private life as Lord and father, of utter callousness for human life, a flagrant disregard for justice, duty, loyalty or honor, completel lack of any personal code, a twisted, oft indulged cruelty and no redeeming tragic background to excuse any of it. It is this combination, I contend, that pushes him to the very top - worse than Gregor, Theon, Bolton or Frey - of the huge of heap of terrible people in westeros.

I often see Tywin characterized as efficient, cold, measured, rational, unemotional, controlled, pragmatic. Whne discussing Shae turning up in his bed, its generally viewed as blatant reversal of characterization. It even has a vast conspiracy theory to explain it. In this thead, he was a clear majority to be the Hand.

Are you people reading the same books i'm reading!??!?!

Tywin is a rabid, petty lunatic, just waiting to go off. I'd rather have the bastard love child of Joffrey and Viserys as my Hand. Shae - a cheap, trashy whore who was his son's - is surprising, but completely in character. The man, to quote Stephen Fry, has the attitude to sex of the catholic church - like the anorexic or the morbidly obese to food.

He keeps constantly on hand people like Gregor and Vargo Hoat, is completely uncritical of their actions, and is always willing to use them. His tactics in war are incredibly dirty and underhanded. He will rape and pillage and torture as a tactic. Flying false banners. Pay off his enemies allies. Send assasins. He is a liar, a cheat and a traitor again and again. He will not blink to murder children.

As for being Hand...he gave the kingdom peace? The kind of peace that exploded into a rebellion that swept up half the realm at the drop of couple of roses. He was flagrantly disloyal, at the end, of course. But before that - he was utterly unreliable. We saw how much he cared about the kingdom, how willing he was to leave it in Aerys mad hands the moment it no longer served his pride and the aggrandizment of his family - not to mention broke his tyrannical iron grip over his son - he was outta there.

And then theres Tywin - the father. Jaime and Cercei - good god, just look at that duo. One of the only few good things we ever hear about Tywin was that he smiled for Cercei. Good job parenting there, considering she was murdering her friends as a preteen. Jaime waited a few years at least to start tossing children from heights.

And now Tysha. She was raped by an entire garrison, to teach his son a lesson. This isn't measured, rational, unemotional. Its bizzare. Cartoonish. over the top. A piece of pure, gleeful theater of torture and cruelty, topped off with the lies, the money, forcing Tyrion to go last. This is what he did to his son for daring to fall in love with someone he found inappropriate. Thats not how anyone with a shred of maturity, or a concience, would deal with the situation.

He never smiles. For fucks sake, can you get more petulantly, melodramtically, arrogantly emo than that?

[Mandurang]

OK.

[King Bronn l]

I ranted a bit about Tywin Lannister in the morality thread, and to my surprise, no one took me up on it. Perhaps some even thought I was kidding. Oh no, ladies and gentlemen, absoloutely not.

Tywin Lannister has a special mix, in both his public actions as a politician and a military commander, and, crucially, in his private life as Lord and father, of utter callousness for human life, a flagrant disregard for justice, duty, loyalty or honor, completel lack of any personal code, a twisted, oft indulged cruelty and no redeeming tragic background to excuse any of it. It is this combination, I contend, that pushes him to the very top - worse than Gregor, Theon, Bolton or Frey - of the huge of heap of terrible people in westeros.

I often see Tywin characterized as efficient, cold, measured, rational, unemotional, controlled, pragmatic. Whne discussing Shae turning up in his bed, its generally viewed as blatant reversal of characterization. It even has a vast conspiracy theory to explain it. In this thead, he was a clear majority to be the Hand.

Are you people reading the same books i'm reading!??!?!

Tywin is a rabid, petty lunatic, just waiting to go off. I'd rather have the bastard love child of Joffrey and Viserys as my Hand. Shae - a cheap, trashy whore who was his son's - is surprising, but completely in character. The man, to quote Stephen Fry, has the attitude to sex of the catholic church - like the anorexic or the morbidly obese to food.

He keeps constantly on hand people like Gregor and Vargo Hoat, is completely uncritical of their actions, and is always willing to use them. His tactics in war are incredibly dirty and underhanded. He will rape and pillage and torture as a tactic. Flying false banners. Pay off his enemies allies. Send assasins. He is a liar, a cheat and a traitor again and again. He will not blink to murder children.

As for being Hand...he gave the kingdom peace? The kind of peace that exploded into a rebellion that swept up half the realm at the drop of couple of roses. He was flagrantly disloyal, at the end, of course. But before that - he was utterly unreliable. We saw how much he cared about the kingdom, how willing he was to leave it in Aerys mad hands the moment it no longer served his pride and the aggrandizment of his family - not to mention broke his tyrannical iron grip over his son - he was outta there.

And then theres Tywin - the father. Jaime and Cercei - good god, just look at that duo. One of the only few good things we ever hear about Tywin was that he smiled for Cercei. Good job parenting there, considering she was murdering her friends as a preteen. Jaime waited a few years at least to start tossing children from heights.

And now Tysha. She was raped by an entire garrison, to teach his son a lesson. This isn't measured, rational, unemotional. Its bizzare. Cartoonish. over the top. A piece of pure, gleeful theater of torture and cruelty, topped off with the lies, the money, forcing Tyrion to go last. This is what he did to his son for daring to fall in love with someone he found inappropriate. Thats not how anyone with a shred of maturity, or a concience, would deal with the situation.

He never smiles. For fucks sake, can you get more petulantly, melodramtically, arrogantly emo than that?

Ok I see where your coming from on the whole he was a monster thing. He was a monster I agree. However I disagree with your analysis of him being an inefficient hand. He was a very good hand of the King. Ifyou don't beleive that look at how the Hands after him are described. Was he a horrible father, absolutely. However it's possible to be a horrible father and an efficient ruler. As to him using monster's in war,flying false banners,and using his enemies against each other,that's just called being efficient. Anyhow, I beleive your issue with him is his duality, while I think that duality makes him fascinating.

[Alexia]

Actually, I nominate Littlefinger as the worst man in Westeros. Tywin at least is trying to control a bad situation so that he and his family can come out on top. Even his evil acts are taken with that in mind (the RW, as much an atrocity as it was, saved thousands of soldiers lives). LF deliberately creates chaos and suffering so that he can ride the wave for personal gain; Tywin makes an effort to minimize it (in general).

I'll grant you most of what you said about Tywin, but the reason he is such a good politician is because of his ruthlessness. Why should he be expected to remain Hand to a bad king who takes pleasure in insulting and humiliating him? Who rips the tongues out from his men for a foolish comment? And you really can't blame him for the rebellion - that was all on Aerys and Rhaegar.

Tywin is a terrible person and a terrible parent - yet a wonderful politician and strategist. He is amoral, ruthless, deceitful, greedy - just like every other politician the world round.

[Mandurang]

Tywin is a terrible person and a terrible parent - yet a wonderful politician and strategist. He is amoral, ruthless, deceitful, greedy - just like every other politician the world round.

I must say your definition of "wonderful" seems a little loose. :)

I doubt you'd find many politicians willing to go to the extremes Tywin Lannister went, but even so, the fact that he is a politician like those the world round, only worse, shouldn't have any effect on pronouncing him the worst man in Westeros. But Littlefinger is a good candidate too, sociopathic serial murderers with armies (Clegane) notwithstanding.

[Alexia]

I must say your definition of "wonderful" seems a little loose. :)

I'm thinking of his efficiency and competency. :) He gets the job done, no?

I doubt you'd find many politicians willing to go to the extremes Tywin Lannister went, but even so, the fact that he is a politician like those the world round, only worse, shouldn't have any effect on pronouncing him the worst man in Westeros.

I was actually challenging the idea that he wasn't a good Hand with that commentary. Being the worst man in Westeros and a good Hand are not mutually exclusive; LF would probably make a good Hand too.

As for politicians willing to go to Tywin's extremes:

1. George Bush

2. Dick Cheney

3. Karl Rove

4. Alberto González

Just getting the list started here. :)

[nightwisp1956]

Well, if there were a contest to see who is the most immoral creep a**hole of Westeros I am sure Tywin would be in the top 5 along with Roose Bolton and Vargo Hoat! :ohwell: Tywin was a hypocrite certainly, and treated Tyrion like crap. He wasn't the nicest guy in that world, but he wasn't the only one!

[Datepalm]

And you really can't blame him for the rebellion - that was all on Aerys and Rhaegar.

Tywin is a terrible person and a terrible parent - yet a wonderful politician and strategist. He is amoral, ruthless, deceitful, greedy - just like every other politician the world round.

I guess I have a higher opinion of politics as a calling, if not of many actual politicians. :P

Aerys and Rhaegar were the casus belli of the rebellion. Entire regions wouldn't have followed is there hadn't been underlying causes and dissatisfaction.

Littlefinger I at least give the benefit of the doubt of being a social climber. Hes awful, but still vastly more sympathetic to me than Tywin.

dammit, where are all the Tywin fans? I swear I didn't imagine them.

[Mandurang]

I'm thinking of his efficiency and competency. :) He gets the job done, no?

It's what I thought, no worries. Just making a joke.

I was actually challenging the idea that he wasn't a good Hand with that commentary. Being the worst man in Westeros and a good Hand are not mutually exclusive; LF would probably make a good Hand too.

Well, probably. If good means ruthless, right? We can probably assume Tywin's utter goal was not to feed the poor, but to shift the balance of power in his favor. Same with Littlefinger. Not very benign rulers, but they'd keep the kingdom together...as long as it served their ambitions, at least.

As for politicians willing to go to Tywin's extremes:

1. George Bush

2. Dick Cheney

3. Karl Rove

4. Alberto González

Just getting the list started here. :)

Heh, I agree with some of your list, to be sure, but that's not every politician. That's not even many (though even one entry on the list is one too many, right?). You can argue Tywin is part of an...elite.

[Acid Rainbow]

Tywin is a terrible person and a terrible parent - yet a wonderful politician and strategist. He is amoral, ruthless, deceitful, greedy - just like every other politician the world round.

I agree with this. Tywin is ruthless and manipulative above all, but he is a very good politician. Remember the scene that takes place immediately after the Red Wedding? Tywin offers generous terms to the men who fought on Robb's side, even allowing them to keep all their castles and lands intact. He was also uncommonly merciful to Stannis' bannermen who had surrendered in mid-battle. Joffrey's first reaction was "kill the traitors!" but Tywin forced his grandson to pardon them - in fact, he pardons all his beaten enemies except for Vargo Hoat, because he mutilated Jaime. He even has a little speech, where says "When your enemies defy you, serve them steel and fire, but if they bend the knee, help them back on their feet. Otherwise no man will kneel to you".

Tywin does care for the realm, because he wants the war to be over as quickly as possible.If not, he wouldn't bother with the Red Wedding (which allowed him to take control of the North and Riverlands), he would just tell Lady Westerling to poison Robb in bed. Like he says, it's better to kill a dozen at a wedding and finish the war, than killing a thousand in battle.

What makes Tywin a real cunt is, of course, his treatment of Tyrion and Tysha. In the ADWD spoiler chapter, Tyrion remembers how brutal his childhood was, and how Tywin made him clean every latrine in Casterly Rock on his birthday. His hatred of Tyrion seems to be disturbingly sexual, since he's sleeping with Shae and all that. The gang-rape of Tysha was nothing more than sexual sadism on Tywin's part.

A crossbow warhead through the gut was far too painless for him. The guy deserved a public gang-rape by the Bloody Mummers, or something like that.

[cravenravenkeeper]

1) I agree with much of your assessment of Tyrwin-I still find Tyrwin a cool character to read about-like LF-because I am interested in their approaches to power and such.So I'm a fan of him as a character, but I'd empty a quiver of crossbow bolts into his gut fast as I can.

2) He was a pretty good Hand. Even despite his many problems, he did as much as he could within the limits of his power. He clearly disliked Aerys, but what were his alternatives?

3) He wasn't nice. That's true. Nice gets you Jimmy Carter. I'll take Nixon..er...Tyrwin any day.

Also: Alexia-Partisan much :rolleyes: ?

Well, probably. If good means ruthless, right? We can probably assume Tywin's utter goal was not to feed the poor, but to shift the balance of power in his favor. Same with Littlefinger. Not very benign rulers, but they'd keep the kingdom together...as long as it served their ambitions, at least.

Actually while I doubt he cares on an emotional level about the issue I am sure he cares about the people eating. First on the conscious level a fed people are a happy people are a non-rebellious people. Second even if he's not engaging in a welfare system, keeping the country at peace means fewer people go hungry.

[Gaston de Foix]

Well, if there were a contest to see who is the most immoral creep a**hole of Westeros I am sure Tywin would be in the top 5 along with Roose Bolton and Vargo Hoat! :ohwell: Tywin was a hypocrite certainly, and treated Tyrion like crap. He wasn't the nicest guy in that world, but he wasn't the only one!

I'm not mounting an ethical defence of Tywin Lannister, particularly. However, I have stated, repeatedly, that at least in the matter of Shae he wasn't being a hypocrite. We don't have to have the debate particularly, but since others agree with me on the interpretation of the events, let's flag it as disputed, and assess Datepalm's argument without it.

In defence of Tywin I would simply argue that most of his actions (the Red Wedding etc) were justified by as being necessary to win the war. Even his treatment of Tysha was warped by his own sense that someone poor married Tyrion because she was a whore for money (see his father's mistress etc etc). But Ramsay Bolton tortures people for his own amusement. There is a significant moral difference there. Even Cersei (although not a man) does everything she does out of a mistaken sense of necessity. Aerys wanted to kill all of King's Landing out of spite. So let's accept that intent is relevant here, and torturing individuals for fun is still morally more reprobate than the use of assassination in warfare. The murder of children is, alas, not unknown, Henry Tudor had the last of the Yorkist pretenders murdered. Richard III famously killed or had killed the Princes in the Tower.

[Alexia]

Well, probably. If good means ruthless, right?

Well, good means getting the job done efficiently. Look at Ned - a lovely person, to be sure, and an honorable guy but a cold corpse who accomplished nothing. Same goes for Jon Arryn, same goes for Robb Stark. Doran has accomplished nothing. Cersei is ruthless but she's a pretty rotten ruler.

Who are the best (most efficient) Westerosi politicians? Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys. Ruthless, cold killers, one and all. I'd argue that ruthlessness is an important component of a competent politician.

You can argue Tywin is part of an...elite.

And such an elite it is! :)

Also: Alexia-Partisan much :rolleyes: ?

:lol: What, you're disagreeing with me? :P

[Lord Varys]

Well, the fact that Tywin ended up backstabbing the King he served as Hand makes him, in fact, the worst Hand you could imagine. Deep in his heart Tywin Lannister did not give a damn about the Realm, or House Targaryen, he simply tried to use both to aggrandize himself and his family. And by all means, Aerys was right when described Tywin as his servant. That is what the Hand of the King should be, the King's most trusted servant, not a guy who plots and plots to marry his slut daughter to your heir, or starts to get the impression that his competence makes him better than the King.

I do not condemn him for the Red Wedding, I condemn him for the Sack of King's Landing.

And his incompetence as father is, of course, something that backfires on him as a so-called political genius. In Tywin Lannister's world family is everything, so getting estranged from all his children is not the best way to consolidate his power. Tywin Lannister died alone on the privy, gutted by his own son. If it could come to that, all he wanted to achieve was doomed from the start. And even if Tywin had lived for another decade or so, I cannot imagine that the so-called peace he was about to force upon Westeros would have prevailed.

Most of the real plots that are hatched in AFfC - Doran trying to marry Quentyn to Dany, Euron coming back, becoming King, and reaving the shores of the Reach - would have been realized with Tywin alive just the same way.

[Alexia]

I guess I have a higher opinion of politics as a calling, if not of many actual politicians. :P

Datepalm -

[3idcrow]

Tywin does care for the realm, because he wants the war to be over as quickly as possible.If not, he wouldn't bother with the Red Wedding (which allowed him to take control of the North and Riverlands), he would just tell Lady Westerling to poison Robb in bed. Like he says, it's better to kill a dozen at a wedding and finish the war, than killing a thousand in battle.

Yes, we have to admit a ruthless efficiency of this plan as much as we hate the result! It was a brilliant way to behead the rebellion.

I agree with all other statements about Tywin but I find him competent. He is a competent administrator, a competent politician and a competent military commander. It calls for sore respect, IMO.

[Acid Rainbow]

Tywin is a sadist, definitely. He doesn't let these feelings interfere with his political manipulations. But the pointless gang-rape of Tysha was only out of spite.

[3idcrow]

Well, the fact that Tywin ended up backstabbing the King he served as Hand makes him, in fact, the worst Hand you could imagine.

But he wasn't a Hand at that time was he? One might argue that if Aerys could keep Tywin's loyalty and service the enrire rebellion would never take place. The opinion that he was a more competent Hand the any of his successors was voiced several times in FFC IIRC.

[Datepalm]

I'm not mounting an ethical defence of Tywin Lannister, particularly. However, I have stated, repeatedly, that at least in the matter of Shae he wasn't being a hypocrite. We don't have to have the debate particularly, but since others agree with me on the interpretation of the events, let's flag it as disputed, and assess Datepalm's argument without it.

I haven heard this argument. How wasn't he being a hypocrite? Do tell!

In defence of Tywin I would simply argue that most of his actions (the Red Wedding etc) were justified by as being necessary to win the war. Even his treatment of Tysha was warped by his own sense that someone poor married Tyrion because she was a whore for money (see his father's mistress etc etc). But Ramsay Bolton tortures people for his own amusement. There is a significant moral difference there. Even Cersei (although not a man) does everything she does out of a mistaken sense of necessity. Aerys wanted to kill all of King's Landing out of spite. So let's accept that intent is relevant here, and torturing individuals for fun is still morally more reprobate than the use of assassination in warfare. The murder of children is, alas, not unknown, Henry Tudor had the last of the Yorkist pretenders murdered. Richard III famously killed or had killed the Princes in the Tower.

Well, the jury is still out on Richard III, last I heard.

In any case, pragmatism does not excuse any of it. Everyone who does anything feels its necessary. What ends was Tywin serving? Aerys at the very least has the excuse of his madness and paranoia. Tywin just does it all for greed. Others fight the same battles, and often go after better ends, and nevertheless refuse to use those tactics. Neither his ends nor his means are of any credit to Tywin.

And Tysha! Come on, nothing justifies that, certainly not any personal sense of belittlement. Besides, the objective there was Tyrion anyway. He was the one being punished, for daring to be happy. Tysha was just a tool. (though I wouldn't be surprised if he raped her afterwards as well.)

Tywin is very narrowly competent, at serving nothing but his own ends. He ultimately trashed the realm, trashed the people he served who trusted him, and trashed his own family.

[cravenravenkeeper]

:lol: What, you're disagreeing with me? :P

Yep. Only really Cheney fits your mold. Rove is a maybe. Bush II isn't in the same class and I have no idea where you got Gonzalez from.

/end thread derail