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Lord Varys

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  1. I'd expect that insofar as Targaryen history is concerned George would like to limit it to material from FaB. Everything after the Dance is basically not *really* written out in great detail aside from the Dunk & Egg stories.
  2. My point was that the woods witch didn't say 'If you want the promised prince to be born, you have to marry your son to your daughter.' She simply foretold that the promised prince would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Like Maggy foretold a lot of stuff about Cersei's future. What Jaehaerys and Shaera and Aerys and Rhaella thought about what the prophecy meant for them we don't yet know at this point. What they were mistaken about is the idea that Rhaegar was the promised prince since the woods witch didn't say Aerys and Rhaella would be the parents of the promised prince. The one seed he may have planted about a Targaryen through the female line is Brown Ben Plumm. He is the one character were we get talk repeatedly that he is descended from a daughter of a Targaryen king named Aegon. And in his case this dragon blood also seems to have effects on Dany's dragons who like Ben better than Irri and Jhiqui who fed and cared for the dragons since their birth more or less the same way Daenerys did. Aside from that, there is nothing. And including the spouses of Targaryen women in the family tree wouldn't be spoilers or give anything away. Just because Egg's sisters married this or that lord wouldn't mean they have descendants still living at the time of the main series. The only Targaryen cadet branches that are still out there are the Baratheons, the Plumms, and the Martells. The Targaryen-Penroses may have died out, the present-day Tarths also are not confirmed to have Targaryen ancestors, none of the Targaryen-Hightowers or Elaena's Penrose girls may have had issue. And so on and so forth. If you look at things then George actually went to considerable lengths to ensure that no main noble house actually acquired Targaryen blood aside from the one that already had it - the Martells. Rhaena and Androw didn't have children who could have married Lannisters. Aerea and Rhaella died without issue, Daella gave Rodrik Arryn only one child and that was married back into House Targaryen. And in later years the Targaryens marrying outside of the family only means they acquired their blood ... it doesn't mean they married their daughters to outsiders in the same manner. And if Daeron II's sons married Targaryen cousins as we assume then this also means that they absorbed cadet branches back into the main line like they did with Aemma Arryn (although not necessarily to the same degree since Aelinor Penrose, Jena Dondarrion, Alys Arryn, and Dyanna Dayne all could have had siblings).
  3. This prophecy isn't a recipe how to make a promised prince cake. It just stated that the promised prince would be born from the union of Aerys and Rhaella. If that were the case then we should assume that the female lines were given more spotlight in the family trees we got in TWoIaF. But they didn't, no? Quite a few husbands for Targaryen and Stark women are missing - for instance, the husbands of Maekar's daughters or the husbands of Aly Blackwood's daughters.
  4. Oh, of course, the dragon blood goes down the female line as well. I just don't think the author thinks it crucial for Daenerys, say, that she inherited Targaryen blood both through the male and the female line. If that were the case the Targaryen women would have featured much more prominently in the main series. Remember, even the female link between the Baratheons and the Targaryens was only revealed in AFfC when we learned about Rhaelle Targaryen being Stannis' grandmother. Oh, George does have his important female characters. Joanna and Tywin marrying a cousin was there from the start. Ned's mother wasn't that important ... and aside from the names we don't know anything about Cassana Estermont or Minisa Whent.
  5. She got that nickname because she refused to reveal the name of the father of her bastard ... not because she refused to marry. Remember, she did not want her brother-husband King Baelor to set her aside, in fact, she even tried to shame him into consummating his marriage. And thinking about it right now, there is even a chance she might be the mother of one of the brides of the sons of Daeron II. Daemon Blackfyre was born in the same year as Baelor Breakspear, meaning the brides of Baelor's younger brothers were likely also born in the early 170s. The idea that as unchaste a woman as Daena would be allowed to remain unwed is also pretty far-fetched. Getting her a husband would mean a firm male hand could control her lust and prevent her from further embarrassing the royal family. If they allowed her to remain unwed she could basically do whatever she wanted. Not to mention that not picking a husband for her would mean she could pick one herself ... like her aunt Baela did. Considering the strength of her claim her doing something like that could cause considerable problems for the Iron Throne. My guess is that a good first take on Daena's marriage prospects after she got out of the Maidenvault would be King Viserys II himself. That way he could ensure neither she nor her children become a problem later. It would also provide him with a queen. Something like that may have fallen through because Viserys II didn't live that long. Afterwards her fate would have been decided by Aegon IV - and since he found a husband for his cousin Elaena he should also have been able to find a husband for Daena.
  6. We know she died early, so she may have never married again after Baelor set her aside ... but if she lived a couple of years after she got out of the Maidenvault she should have married somebody. Oh, I don't think the female line matters in that at all. If it did, George would have cared more about the female line in the books - which he rarely does, even with key characters. Remember that Ned's mother is nowhere in the crypts despite the fact that she was a born Stark. She should be right there next to Lya and Brandon and Rickard (although without her likeness) but Ned doesn't even think of her when he visits the crypts. With the Targaryens the best guess is that Jaehaerys II and Shaera inherited a very undiluted strain of the blood of the dragon - which might be hinted at by Jaehaerys II's illnesses and crippled hand - which was then passed on to their children and grandchildren.
  7. I think the tree could include an unknown number of siblings for Aethan and the first Daemon. Our sources are good enough to allow for that. We cannot pretend to know what kind of cousins showed up for the wedding, that's true. But considering the circumstances we can assume it would have been cousins with close ties to Alyssa and Daemon, considering the nature of the event which draw them to court. If you think about the Silent Five who later apparently fought for the Greens during the Dance - those are so insignificant Velaryon cousins by comparison that they are only mentioned when they try to contest the succesion of Driftmark. Their role in the war must have been very minor, I'd imagine they were at best sworn swords in the service of Aegon II, and perhaps died during one of the earlier Green campaigns - say, Cole's campaigns in the Crownlands or later with the Aemond-Cole army in the Riverlands. In relation to the sons of Daemon II the family tree cannot specify that he just had three sons - Corwyn, Jorgen, and Victor - those are merely the sons who show Jaehaerys and Alysanne the shipyards of Driftmark when they are visiting in 49-50 AC. They are the sons who are *right there* at that time, not necessarily a complete list of Daemon's sons. Daemon could have had other sons who weren't there at that time, and he could have had sons who were born later - say, if he took another young wife after he resigned as Hand of the King. I think one can account for things like that by adding 'sons' to the family tree. And chances aren't that bad that George doesn't necessarily view Corwyn as Daemon's eldest son - he didn't name Corlys' parents, so they could be people who weren't mentioned by name in FaB at all. Considering that Corlys himself insist that Jacaerys is a good and traditional Velaryon family name his father could have been another Jacaerys for all we know.
  8. I don't think there is much of a chance to have all that stuff with a child Rhaenyra - her being her father's little darling, her crush on Criston, Daemon trying to suck up to and seduce a (pre-)teenage girl, etc. are possible or would work in a show like that. Instead, the only way this makes sense if Rhaenyra is aged up so she can be a teenager (say 16-18) when the show properly starts. They could have flashbacks to the Great Council or Aemon's death and Rhaenys' wedding and whatnot with a child Rhaenyra in the scenes, but the entire plot around Rhaenyra's romances and affairs has to involve a woman beyond the age of fifteen at least. I don't think there is any good reason to assume that Daemon has to retain his status as heir for long. And he is never Heir Apparent, merely the king's acknowledged presumptive heir in the book. Viserys I refuses to grant him the title of Prince of Dragonstone, after all, because he still expects a son from Aemma, etc. After all, the same press releases which informed us that Daemon was 'the king's heir' told us that Alicent Hightower was merely the Hand's daughter, not the queen, and they also told us that Criston Cole was not yet a Kingsguard (nor that he would ever join the order) but a common-born humble knight aspiring to be more. Emma D'Arcy definitely can play Rhaenyra throughout the entire show. She can play a woman approaching forty, and if Rhaenyra were aged up, say, ten years, then she would die at the age of 43 instead of 33. But an aged-up Rhaenyra also would mean they could rush her marriage to Laenor to take place shortly after or around the king's marriage to Alicent. The reason Rhaenyra marries Laenor only in 113 AC in the books is that she only comes of age in that year - whereas the show Rhaenyra would already be an adult. This, in turn, would allow them to compress the reign of Viserys I somewhat so the Dance could start, perhaps, what would be 122 or 125 AC in the books, with Aegon II being around twenty when the war starts. To simplify things Aegon and Helaena could be twins, etc. They could even change things somewhat and have Aegon II be still minor/in his teens when his father dies, so the coup is staged only in his name and Alicent rules as Queen Regent. That could work if they wanted the Dance to be truly about 'The Princess and the Queen' and not so much about the Queen and the King. The really big issue with the time passing from the beginning of the show to the Dance would be ages of Alicent's children. In the books Aegon II and Aemond were already men grown ... but a (or perhaps the) significant change there might be that they won't have the same age in the show. For Rhaenyra's sons and her two marriages things would be as condensed if she could marry before 113 AC. Her elder sons could be pretty much of the same age as Aegon and Aemond, and the younger sons by Daemon could also be somewhat older. It would also give them the opportunity to make Baela and Rhaena daughters of Daemon and Rhaenyra rather than Laena and Daemon - if they wanted to cut Laena, that is, which they hopefully do not.
  9. For the Velaryons family tree there should be an unknown number of sons added to the children of the first Daemon, considering Alyssa Velaryon and her children are accompanied by Alyssa's brothers and cousins to Maegor's third wedding in 43 AC: It is certainly possible that this refers only to second and third cousins, but not all that likely. In any case, it allows for Aethan and Corlys having at least one additional brother.
  10. Of course, I might not have been clear. I also like the idea of one of Elaena's girls marrying into House Baratheon. This is definitely possible and not exactly unlikely. I was coming from the point of definitely trying to make sense of Renly's talk about 'elder daughters and second sons'. While Laena and Jocelyn Penrose would both qualify as 'elder daughters', they are, technically, not Targaryens. Mya Rivers technically became a Targaryen when she was legitimized, even if she - like Bloodraven - never went by that name. And in that sense she works better in that context than Laena or Jocelyn Penrose would. No objection there. My point just were that a second son of House Baratheon would easily be good enough for a legitimized Targaryen bastard of high birth. Especially at a time when the Baratheons were still trying to regain their influence with the Iron Throne. It is noteworthy in all that that so far we have no indication that the Baratheons played a big role during Daeron's Conquest. Could turn out that Royce Baratheon played a big role there ... but so far there is nothing about that. Might very well be that the Young Dragon and his Hand deliberately sidelined the Baratheons there and worked directly with the Marcher Lords.
  11. That seem to be correct. He turned Queen Aelinor Targaryen, a sister of Aerys I, into Aelinor Penrose, a cousin, for TWoIaF as well as settling on a Dayne for Maekar's bride. The other two brides for Daeron's sons also came as surprises to you, unless I mistaken, although I'm aware those aren't wives of (future) kings.
  12. The tree is definitely incomplete - with Jaehaerys I's children it turned out to be wrong, which is another more unfortunate problem. The Rhaena-Androw marriage was missing from the original tree, and the total number of the children of Baela and Rhaena are missing from the tree - in part, perhaps George didn't figure it out already, but since it seems clear that Aelinor Penrose is related to Aerys I through either of those two bloodlines it stand to reason that the connections are there, at least. They may not have made it into the tree due to space constraints, etc. ... but with FaB I only containing half the family tree, a subsequent family tree for Rhaenyra-Daemon-Laena's descendants could include more details than the TWoIaF tree did - for instance, reflecting how we get from, say, the second Laena Velaryon to Aelinor Penrose, if that's how the bloodline goes. And then there are curious absences like the hypothetical children of Jenny and Duncan. It would have been so easy to add a half-sentence stating their marriage remained childless, but this is not confirmed in the book. The same goes for Vaella the Simple, Prince Maegor and his mother Daenora - who would also have been very young when Aerion died. And effectively confirmed marriages and issue are missing for both daughters of Maekar. We do know both married and had children. But for our Baratheon quotes dilemma the best solutions would be via the elder sister of Bloodraven or Daena the Defiant. Because both fit the bill of Renly's quote about 'elder daughters'. To come up with a second son of House Targaryen marrying a hypothetical ruling Lady of Storm's End from whom Robert and his brothers are descended would be much more complicated. Yes, if she doesn't predecease Aegon II she would have to remarry. Everything else would be very odd. Since she died young I'd also not be surprised if she died before 180 AC. And if she played a role in the Blackfyre thing TWoIaF should have elaborated on that. But unless she died in the early 170s she should have remarried. But I really like my idea that plans were made to marry her to Viserys II after his ascension to the throne to prevent that there develop a rift in the family. They could have even planned that the king adopt Daemon Waters ... which would have been a rather funny situation for Aegon IV. If Viserys II had ruled for another 10-15 years he could have easily outlived Aegon IV (remember, that Viserys had children at a very early age, so chances that they would necessarily succeed him were much lower than that Jaehaerys I be succeeded by his sons), and then the question of Daena and her sisters and their children could be raised again, especially if they had sons at that time. If Daena had married a powerful lord as you suggest said powerful lord could have decided that his son was a better claimant to the Iron Throne than Dornish-loving Daeron, say. In such a scenario you would not even need Daemon Blackfyre to stir up trouble. The phantom of such a development could have been avoided if Daena had become the queen at the side of Viserys II - just like a Dance could have been avoided if Rhaenyra had been married to Aegon the Elder. Here I'd differ. I think it is a problem to assume that Aegon IV never took a second wife considering his depravity, but remarrying after Naerys' death may have been problematic considering how the king's size and his declining health. That said, there is the possibility for a secret marriage - George could easily enough turn Megette into a wife of Aegon's, sort of like Tysha was Tyrion's wife, with the mummer-septon story just being the story Viserys II decided was the truth afterwards. After Naerys' death Serenei of Lys could have been a secret wife of Aegon's. But the idea of Aegon taking another wife at that point for reasons of state - meaning a woman he didn't love/desire the way he did with his mistresses - seems not very likely. Yes, but her age at that time would make it difficult for her to still carry children - hence the idea she could have married Maekar to continue as queen. Tywin wasn't a king, though, although him lacking a consort at the Rock would have also been somewhat strange. But then, he wasn't even at the Rock after Joanna's death until 281 AC, and one imagines that Genna and eventually Cersei sort of stepped in for Joanna. The problem of not having a queen is more important, since a queen actually fulfills a function at a working court. At Maekar's court such a role could be fulfilled by Aelinor as a queen dowager as well as the aging Elaena (who was around until at least 220 AC, possibly longer) as well as by Rhaegel's widow Alys Arryn (if she outlived her husband) or even by Daeron's wife Kiera of Tyrosh. But generally the thing is that love and grief may prevent a prince from remarrying ... a king really wouldn't have that luxury. He has a duty to his kingdom, and that doesn't only extend to producing heirs but also to have a wife to embody the ideals of the social order. The Father Above isn't a widower or bachelor, either, apparently. The final problem in this entire scenario is absent Queen Shaera. She did survive Summerhall, so she should also be around during the reign of her son. She clearly is gone in the days of the truly Mad King, but one way for her to disappear would certainly be a second marriage, possibly one abroad. She was only thirty-six when Aerys II ascended the Iron Throne. An interesting idea here could be her marrying into the Old Blood of Volantis, and Steffon's mission effectively being to look among Aerys II's half-siblings in Volantis for a suitable bride for Rhaegar. If Shaera was dead by then - which we should expect - then her Volantene husband may not have been very inclined to agree to such a match considering the reputation of the Mad King. Not to mention that it might turn out that Aerys II doesn't have any living/unmarried half-sisters at that point in time.
  13. I'm not really speculating, I'm pointing out possibilities you overlooked. And I'm not really even convinced that Bloodraven's sisters were married. Them being bastards could have meant that no nobleman - own family included - wanted them. A second son cannot really expect to marry an heiress. They are exceedingly rare, anyway. And, actually, the Baratheons were not exactly in high standing with the Iron Throne since the role of Borros Baratheon in the Dance of the Dragons. Keep in mind that Viserys II and Aegon IV are the son and grandson of Rhaenyra Targaryen. Viserys II wouldn't have forgotten how the Baratheons treated his half-brother Lucerys and how Borros Baratheon tried to defeat the Blacks on the Kingsroad in the last battle of the war. TWoIaF even mentions that it took the Baratheons quite a while to regain the position they had before the Dance. A Blackwood-Targaryen bastard marrying into House Baratheon could have helped reestablish ties between the Iron Throne and Storm's End as well as establish ties between the Riverlands and Storm's End - the Blackwoods fought against the Baratheons back on the Kingsroad, after all. And I'm not sure why you are arguing against me here - we do have two Blackwood-Targaryen girls here. Mya could have married the Baratheon fellow I'm suggesting and Gwenys could have married somebody else. I find it unlikely she would have married a Blackwood cousin but I never said it would be impossible. I just explained why I think this is unlikely. They would have gotten the blood with that ... but not further ties. If, for instance, the Mya and Gwenys didn't really have any close ties with the Iron Throne (because Daeron II and his sons didn't care about them as they cared about Bloodraven) then children from such a union wouldn't have had any special ties, either. Overall, Bloodraven alone is more than enough to ensure sufficient patronage for the Blackwoods. That would add another unnecessary layer to Bittersteel's motivations. Bittersteel had problems with how he and his family were treated by Aegon IV and Daeron II, Bittersteel had problems with Bloodraven due to the Bracken-Blackwood feud, Bittersteel was vying with Bloodraven for the attention and affection of Shiera Seastar and he lost. He really doesn't need another reason to loathe Bloodraven and the Blackwoods. Daemon Blackfyre offered Bittersteel his daughter Calla, so he had a rather prestigious marriage prospect - which he may or may not have gone through with - one that was much more prestigious technically than a fellow royal bastard. Calla Blackfyre was not born on the wrong side of the blanket, after all. I'm not saying that cousin marriages were frowned upon. I'm saying cousin marriages make more sense when you are a family protecting assets and keeping the family together - defending what they have, basically - than it would be if you are in an eternal feud with your neighbors and have to keep ahead of them in the marriage alliances game. I'm not saying the Blackwoods would not marry cousins, I'm saying they are more likely to marry cousins through the female line who are actually part of another house because that way they would not only be Blackwoods but also bring in ties to another house. For instance, I also like the idea that one of Lyonel Hightower's sons or grandsons ended up marrying one of Rhaena and Garmund's girls - because the Hightowers are a very large family who might marry their own cousins often enough - and that specific cousin there would also give introduce the blood of the dragon into the main branch of the family.
  14. Yes, that's something that made sense. Although I must say the show could find other interesting ways to establish the animosity between Otto and Daemon - namely, Daemon being an incompetent, lazy, and irresponsible guy - completely unqualified to sit on the council or have any word in the government of the Realm. Otto Hightower is described as a very methodical man, a guy who would chose the men he works with on the basis of ability and talent ... and likely also whether they could work with him or not. Young Daemon seems to be the kind of fellow who would think all he had to do as a prince was to be there ... and the work would do itself. That alone could cause Otto to fear for the Realm and its government when he considered that Daemon might one day sit the Iron Throne. And Viserys I didn't like that prospect all that much, either, else he wouldn't have dismissed Daemon from the council seats he had granted him. Since I don't think Rhaenyra will be a young teenager at the beginning of the show the idea would be, I think, that Rhaenyra and Alicent have the hots for Daemon, him being this dashing fellow, whereas Daemon only starts to care for Rhaenyra after she is made Heir Apparent - which basically is also the case in the book. I think it is out of the question we get the weird uncle giving his niece seduction lessons ... but we could get the Daemon/Rhaenyra affair in 111 AC after the tourney - although that would necessitate that Daemon is married at that time, or else we would have gotten a secret marriage of uncle and niece at that time. In general, I think, they should focus on the whole incest thing and hammer home the fact that it is normal for this people to marry and sexually desire close relations - because that's what it is. The Cole affair I suggested would then come after Daemon's exile. And part of Criston's later hatred of Rhaenyra and the Blacks could also be connected to him viewing Daemon as a rival for Rhaenyra's affections at this early time. In fact, if you think about it, Rhaenyra ending up with Daemon in 120 AC would have only deepened his hatred and jealousy. We can assume as much even for the books. I've suggested that it could be remarkably easy for them to keep Rhea in a funny way - have Daemon appear to a be a cool bachelor all the time ... until folks first start to weirdly reference a wife we have so far never met. And then she shows up for an episode (and later we get a scene of her death or we merely hear about that). Say, when King Viserys has enough of his brother and commands him to return to his lady wife. Then we could see Daemon being pissed at Runestone for a couple of scenes, and him and Rhea having very awkward conversations/interactions. It is the kind of thing one could use to show how much arranged marriages in such a setting can suck. Because they could be people who are so different in character and personality that even small talk is basically impossible. Actually, if they were to cut Laena, I'd make Baela and Rhaena Rhaenyra's daughters by Daemon. That would work easily enough and could better show the incest marriage policy thing if they keep Rhaenyra's sons being betrothed to Daemon's daughters.
  15. Yes, that was also part of my idea above. Which could be done by ways of giving Daeron I a wife and a posthumous daughter, and by ways of Viserys II remarrying. Maekar I'd like to remarry, too, but he could just take his widowed sister-in-law Aelinor Penrose as his second wife, so she could continue in her role as queen ... and by 221 AC she could be well beyond her childbearing years, so Maekar's children - he had more than enough heirs when he became king - would not have to multiply even more despite the fact that he had another wife. But the easiest way to resolve the Baratheon issue would be by ways of marrying Daena or Bloodraven's eldest sister to a younger son of House Baratheon whose line would eventually inherit Storm's End. And it would be truly awfully convenient if none of those women ever married. Especially in Daena's case this would be very hard to swallow.
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