The Stannis Appreciation Thread {Only Good Guys Allowed}

[LuisDantas]

I don't really understand.

By those acts he captures Storm's End and gathered thousands of followers. Had Melisandre been with him at KL Westeros would probably be hailing King Stannis.

Yeah, that is quite possible. And an awful thing to think.

Melisandre is useful, but not worth the price. That is the point.

It is implied Stannis is not fully conscious of what the shadows do, and they were hardly treasonous. Stannis is the King, anyone who disobeys him is a traitor and traitors deserve death or the Watch.

I beg your pardon?

Stannis knows full well that Melisandre is killing people in his stead by sorcerous means. He even made a point of asking Davos to help her the second time.

Maybe he is playing the fool, but if so then he is stooping even lower than I assume and deserves even less respect than I give him now.

As for his being self-righteous, yes, that is true. And yet another mark against him.

[1234567]

I can't help but like Stannis. His relationship with Davos is one of the very few true friendships we see in the book. I even think he and Jon actually made quite a good team.

Also he was the only one who went to the Wall to help. :)

Burning people alive is fairly grim though. :(

Also he is quite humourous and does say what he believes is true. His conversations with Cat and Renly and Janos and the NW are just brilliant.

[LuisDantas]

Could You be so nice then and tell me: Who wanted help him in beginnig of everything? Many, many lords? His younger brother? And please, remember about UNITED KINGDOMS. Who?

I am sure he should'nt send Melisandre away for starters. Maybe later, but no in this moment. She offered him help.

Then I must assume you don't expect people to give him respect. His association with Melisandre is in and of itself shameful. That he chooses a real chance of attaining power over using honorable resources is exactly why I despise him.

You... You are wrong. Plain and simply. Sorry, but my English is too weak for REAL answer. I want yell for You and explain everything like four years old, but I can't.

Maybe you want to try again later?

Lust for power. Sorry character with delusions. Self-pity.

I am helpless and irate. I don't know what I should answer for it!

So you disagree? What about citing specific chapters for evidence that I am wrong, for instance?

[I.Know.Nothing]

Stannis is the one that I typically cheer for in the series. I think if he had more support he would be able to take out everyone but his army is not very large. I hope that he crushes the Boltons & Freys but I doubt it. Everyone dogs him for being a kinslayer, but Renly was being a pretty big jerk and denying him his rightful claim. The burning of people is a bit harsh, but the individuals who suffered that fate deserved some sort of punishment (probably not being roasted in a fire).

[LuisDantas]

Renly did deserve to die simply by virtue of making his own claim to the throne and having better support? Really?

And Cortney Penrose, why exactly did he deserve to die?

Alester Florent?

I will not mention Edric Storm because, after all, Stannis did refuse to kill him. But still.

I can only wonder how the Stannis supporters feel about Jaime being called the Kingslayer. For all his many faults, Jaime had a far better case for killing Aerys than Stanis for justifying killing any of those three people. I particularly blame him for deliberately fooling Renly into thinking that he would face him in the battlefield just so that he could kill him by sorcery. There is no reasonable moral justification for that.

[Tini]

Yes, there is justification for fooling Renly into believing he wanted to face him in battle. Killing him by sorcery doesn't kill thousands of people that will die in battle trying to determine which one of them has the better claim. It is how Tywin Lannister justifies the Red Wedding. Tywin ignored that thousands of people died in the Red Wedding, too, because they were not fighting on his side.

[ríomhaire]

He demands honest counsel, and when people tell him things he doesn't want to hear... he takes them seriously! A rare and praiseworthy trait.

-edit-

Haha, I just had a look at the tags you chose for this thread. I wish, brother... I wish.

Yes goddamnit! So refreshing to see this in fiction! I love Davos and Stannis and their dynamic. To me Stannis is the evil overlord turned on its head. He is brutal and not a nice or likeable person in the least and he will take any advantage he can get even if he doesn't really believe in it (Melisandre). He was also somewhat jealous of his brother. But really he is actually trying to do justice to everything. He and Tarly are the only people I can recall seen punishing rapists in their ranks for instance.

And he demands honest council and takes it when he gets it. Brilliant.

[Alexia]

On a slightly more serious note, I really liked Asha's thoughts about him in ADWD. When she tries to invoke Robert in her plea to him and pisses him off, and she realized that it was a mistake.

[Kate Poem]

Hmm, all right. I will try. First Melisandre. On the beginning. And earlier good maester Cressen's advice. You wrote king Stannis should say "Yes" for... for... eee... practically... disuniting a Kingdoms. I know, they weren't united "body and soul", but - but did exist central power. Am I right? One King = 7 Kingdoms = Peace.

Good maester Cressen proposed some alliances if I understood good: with Robb, with Renly or with Lysa Arryn. Some part of Kingdoms, bigger or smaller would belong to Stannis. Stannis did'nt want a power for... power. I think. His brother was a king of Seven Kingdoms. He knew what he should do. He did'nt want BEGIN a disunity. He did'nt want be a part of it in any way, but he began thinking about it and - Melisandre appeared.

Second:

Stannis looks quite unfit even for a plain Lord, honestly. Not because he is grim, but because he is unwise and way, way too self-righteous, and has less than nothing to show to justify such a generous self-image.

Everyone knew about Stannis everything. Robert laughed from him, disrespected him, Renly spat in his face, he is'nt charismatic, he is boring, stiff, he gritted his teeth, his feasts are sillent, he drinks not a wine, his meals are common, his clothes are common, his wife has mustache, his daughter has ugly face...

He is just. He is fair. He works hard. He sat in his brother's council. He fought and starved for him. He treated all people equally. He is good commander in the battle. He did'nt lie. He did'nt sugarcoat things. Punishments for bad, rewards for loyal service. He would'nt be lost a dragons from Crown Treasure for stupid friwolities. He listened good advices. Law will be law. He can admit his mistakes. He will say truth in the face etc. etc.

I am not sure king Stannis wholeheartedly believes in Azor Ahai thing. It seems all thing is tiring for him. He must only become King. Alternatives did'nt exist.

His sincerity was - is... refreshing in some way..

I probably wasted a time... /sigh/

I hope my babbling is understandable.

[JKeats]

1) Renly earned an execution, that much is plain. He had no lawful claim to the throne, and unlike Joffrey, he even knew it. That makes him a knowing and willful usurper. Renly would probably have made a better king than Robert (admittedly an easy standard to meet), but under his reign, the usual sort of court intrigue would have continued. The method of his execution was discomforting due to the involvement of shadow magic, but still he brought it upon himself.

For all that, Stannis loved him anyway and will think about Renly for the rest of his life. It's a damn shame, but it had to be done. Moreover, Stannis expected to face Renly in open battle, which he probably expected to win since he believed Mel when she said she saw him dead. That's rather different than deliberately deceiving Renly into a night's worth of peace before a morning battle.

2) Cortnay Penrose was a good man as well, and given his long years of service to Renly at Sorms End, we can even see how he'd cast his lot in with Renly despite knowing him to be a usurper. Fair enough, Penrose was cool. But he was still an enemy commander in wartime, holding a key asset. I'm not sure he "deserved" to die, but death is to be expected when you're facing an enemy in war.

3) It seems to me people are hung up on the shadow assassins being some unforgivable evil. I can understand why, but it still seems a bit overblown to me. They're merely tools. And considering that they only kill one target rather than hundreds, death by shadow assassin seems to actually spare more lives than battle. All that shadow and blood magic is creepy, but not inherently evil.

4) Keeping #3 in mind, the text supports the idea that Stannis isn't consciously aware of how exactly Renly and Penrose died. He knows Mel has seen them dead in her fires, and he dreams of Renly's death. But going by his conversation with Davos, he doesn't know about the shadow assassin.

5) Alester Florent swore to obey Stannis and serve his interests as Hand. Then he went behind his back to surrender Stannis' claim and give his daughter in marriage to the Lannisters. That's a betrayal. Lord Alester committed treason. His life was forfeit.

Seems to me Stannis was fully justified in killing Renly, Penrose, and Florent. All three.

[I.Know.Nothing]

I agree with Jkeats

[mediocre cheese]

The cannibals in his army. First off I think if your starving eating a dead body is perfectly acceptable. In the modern world I think all lawmakers would agree. Look at the andes flight disaster. So, torching them was wrong. Second even if you believe that it was right (which I find absurd), stannis himself considered eating people at storm's end, and its said that he would have done so.

[Frozen Soul]

Well in war "you're either with me or against me" so each side has to defend its own interests. The killer shadow thing is Melisandre's doing and I'm sure Stannis is not completely aware of how the whole thing works...or he doesnt want to know, I think he is at a point where the end justifies the means while trying to follow his moral code.

[D_Richard]

Stannis is pretty great, and so is this thread.

And Stannis will be even MORE cool when Melisandre deserts him for her new AA: the reborn Jon Snow. Stannis'll lose his religion, get humbled, and angry. I'm hoping action will trump magic in this case.

[JKeats]

The cannibalism disconnect was quite jarring. That bit of hypocrisy is a big ugly splinter. I'll admit Stannis went down in my estimation because of that.

Also, I can't shake the nagging feeling that GRRM made a continuity error. He's made a mistake before.

Thirteen years separate ACoK and ADwd, 1998 and 2011 respectively. Asha is horrified (though not surprised) at the thought of starving men eating human flesh, but back in ACoK, none of Renly's commanders, nor Lady Catelyn bat an eye at the casual, even amused way Renly mentions the incident at Storm's End.

-edit-

I've been going though the So Spake Martin part of the site, trying to find the exchange about Jaime inheriting Casterly Rock and the Warden of the West title. The search function isn't helping very much. Am I imagining things, or does anybody else remember what I'm talking about? In the crypts of Winterfell back in AGoT, Ned and Robert speak as if Jaime will inherit the Rock when Tywin dies, but of course Kingsguard give up all such claims. I have some recollection of GRRM admitting that was a mistake, but where is the SSM piece on that?

[mediocre cheese]

The cannibalism disconnect was quite jarring. That bit of hypocrisy is a big ugly splinter. I'll admit Stannis went down in my estimation because of that.

Also, I can't shake the nagging feeling that GRRM made a continuity error. Thirteen years separate ACoK and ADwd, 1998 and 2011 respectively. Asha is horrified (though not surprised) at the thought of starving men eating human flesh, but back in ACoK, none of Renly's commanders, nor Lady Catelyn bat an eye at the casual, even amused way Renly mentions the incident at Storm's End.

I didn't see a disconnect at all actually. Stannis probably wouldn't have executed them had the queen's men not been endlessly badgering him to do so. Its really no different than edric storm, stannis on his own is unlikely to order an atrocity, but if pressured to do so he will. The queens men wanted a sacrifice and Stannis held out for a time, but eventually he gave in. If davos hadn't been there its likely edric would have got burned as well. Maybe if davos had been there he would have spared the cannibals.

[TheWhiteFawn]

this thread is pretty cool :thumbsup:

i like stannis, and am rooting for him to win the iron throne.

i think out of all the potential kings hes the most capable to properly handle the purging of the corruption in westeros

[JKeats]

The disconnect I'm referring to is whether eating the flesh of the dead is a capital crime or not. AWdW indicates that it is. Asha Greyjoy of the Iron Island, accustomed to all manner of brutalities, is horrified at the thought. Others in Stannis' army seem to think it's plain as day that eating of the dead is some kind of abomination. Now I agree with you that there's no moral problem with starving people eating corpses to survive.

Here's the thing though. Back in ACoK, that sort of thing apparently wasn't a crime. We really need GRRM to clarify this matter for us.

[Ghost Rider]

Stannis belongs to the characters I love to hate. So I really appreciate him for that. :) I can obviously understand that most characters he interacts with, think him to be rather revolting. I do believe he is hypocritical too for various reasons listed in the Stannis - a raging hypocrite? thread. He probably isn't even aware of the whole thing himself, which is funny.

He is also rather weak. He needs someone to lean on, someone like Davos who is a much better person then Stannis. I guess he appreciates Davos for his utterly devotion to him, much the only person who shows that since Stannis isn't able to win the hearts and minds of other people.

He even leans on Jon, who is a frigging teenager (though a very strong one)! Without these guys (and Mel), Stannis would be toast three times over already. As it is, he might still be with us. :)

[JKeats]

He is also rather weak. He needs someone to lean on, someone like Davos who is a much better person then Stannis. I guess he appreciates Davos for his utterly devotion to him, much the only person who shows that since Stannis isn't able to win the hearts and minds of other people.

He even leans on Jon, who is a frigging teenager (though a very strong one)! Without these guys (and Mel), Stannis would be toast three times over already. As it is, he might still be with us. :)

Not sure I see how seeking counsel from others, particularly those whose judgment you trust, is a sign of weakness. Surely that's what we want in a leader, no? Stannis listens to Jon and Davos and Mel in good faith, weighs their counsel, and acts upon it. Sometimes he agrees, sometimes he doesn't, but he always thinks about it first. How is that weak?

-edit-

Incidentally, Stannis appreciates Davos for reasons beyond loyalty. There are other men in his service who are just as loyal as Davos, but Stannis esteems Davos more than them because he provides wise and honest counsel. That's the key right there. Be loyal yes, but more than that, always tell the truth, don't be a yes man.