The Stannis Appreciation Thread {Only Good Guys Allowed}

[Kate Poem]

I am tired. They were Baratheons. Brothers. Stannis was older. Renly was younger.

They were'nt equals.

Examples: Tywin and Kevan Lannisters, Robb and Bran in GoT - Bran, before "accident" could become a Robb's bannerman.

[JKeats]

Every house other than stannis also acknowledges joffrey and tommen as robert's son's and heirs.

Not quite. With regard to who Robert's heir is, there are four possible positions one can take.

1) Joffrey (and later Tommen) is heir and should be supported

2) Stannis is heir and should be supported

3) Joffrey is, but Stannis should be supported anyway

4) Stannis is, but Joffrey should be supported anyway

Even is your aim is independence from the Iron Throne, as with Robb and Balon Greyoy, your stance on the Baratheon succession must fall in one of the above four categories (minus the support of course).

Plenty of people of good faith can be found in both category 1 and 2. I can't think of anybody who falls in category 3. Category 4 includes pretty much all the Lannisters, Tyrells, Boltons, Baelishs, and several other notables.

Stannis' challenge, which so far has been inconclusive, is to defeat these category 4 people in battle. It could still happen. But regardless of what happens, speaking as a reader omniscient as to the truth of Joffrey's parentage, Stannis remains Robert's heir.

[Noimporta]

If you'll allow me to diverge from the discussion at hand, I, too, would like to express my appreciation of Stannis. I find him to be one of the most interesting characters in the series, a harsh, righteous man, with a strong (and very odd) sense of justice, who is capable of both great and heinous deeds for the sake of his duty, and is constantly at risk of falling off the deep end.

One interesting thing about him is how people react to him, when compared to Robert. The latter was much more charismatic and jovial, and people flocked to him in a way they never would to his brother, however, he attracted all kinds of people, among them backstabber, schemers and adulators, that let him run the kingdom to the ground. Stannis, on the other hand, drives most people away, but those who do stay by his side (excluding Mel and the Red worshipers) are usually of high moral caliber, and fiercely loyal: a man of Cressen's age and health would be happy to retire, but he was adamant to keep serving him, and even forfeited his life in an attempt to save Stannis from Melissandre's influence, the so called "King's Men" likewise risked their lives to help Davos save Edric Storm (again, saving Stannis from making a huge mistake), and Davos himself has repeatedly proved that he's the best underling you could possibly have in all Westeros. Many say that Stannis lucked out with Davos, but it really was his character (before the war, at least) that drove the latter to follow him.

[ghost the direwolf]

He has sex with Melisandre,, is still alive and his wife does not mind the red priestess as his mistress. Good man, respect.

[Kate Poem]

I am not sure he had sex with Melisandre... But it is possible. If it is, he should end with it.

It drained him from his "life force". It is dangerous.

/worry/

[Lord Barristan]

I love Stannis. In A Clash of Kings I didn't like him at all and was creeped out by Mel, but now I LOVE the guy... When he attacked Mance's camp and Jon sees the heart banners i got SO pumped and even more so when his knights started chanting "STANNIS!! STANNIS!!!"

Best Trio: Stannis, Melissandre, Davos!!!

Stannis the one true king!

[Kate Poem]

/smile/

All Hail for His Grace! All kneel before Stannis from House Baratheon, first of this name, king of the Andals, Rhyonars and First Men, lord of the Seven Kingdoms and protector of the realm!

/cheers and wave/

Hail!

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[ríomhaire]

I am tired. They were Baratheons. Brothers. Stannis was older. Renly was younger.

They were'nt equals.

Examples: Tywin and Kevan Lannisters, Robb and Bran in GoT - Bran, before "accident" could become a Robb's bannerman.

By this logic Ramsey, who is the current Lord of Winterfell, is bellow his father even though his father is only lord of Dreadfort.

[1234567]

By this logic Ramsey, who is the current Lord of Winterfell, is bellow his father even though his father is only lord of Dreadfort.

I think it's different because Ramsay got the title through being "Arya's" husband.

I do love the sheer determinedness of Stannis though. Also I can see the relationship between him and Jon becoming important if (Jon survives and is also R+L=J). At some point Cersei's children will die or hopefully be properly exposed as Jaime's children and not Robert's. If that does finally happen, then Stannis will emerge as the one who fought for the truth. Should the Others ever get off their arses and bother to attack the South, then provided the humans win, he will also be the King who defended the Wall when no other King would (apart from a possible newly discovered Targ heir). He has also stated that he would renounce that title if there was a better claimant. Now Dany has a better claim, but she is not around at present. If she or Jon are ever elevated to rule though, I think Stannis would back them 100%.

I'm still hoping he ends up as Hand.

I am also hoping that he and Val hook up after tge almost inevitable deaths of Selyse and Shireen......most probably because of Mel or Patchface. However that's probably too sweet an ending for Stannis.

[Talleyrand]

By this logic Ramsey, who is the current Lord of Winterfell, is bellow his father even though his father is only lord of Dreadfort.

He is, though only because Roose was declared as Warden of the North. The two situations are not comparable though. Dragonstone is a vassal house of the Crownlands whereas Storm's End is the head house of the Stormlands. You can not claim vassalship over someone who's fief is higher than yours in the social scale. By that logic if say, a younger son of Lord Harmen Uller in Hellhot married into one of the greater houses such as Tyrell and then his son became lord of the Reach that boy would not be subservient to the Lord of House Uller as the head of the family.

[Tini]

Well, Cersei married Robert Baratheon and became queen regent after his death. Yet I certainly had the impression that she remained subservient to her father despite that. You can hold several different roles in the feudal society of Westeros, which makes the determination where you are on the social ladder really difficult.

[Erinne]

Being the owner of a castle does not automatically grant you any other titles. Like how Emmon Frey being Lord of Riverrun does not make him Lord Paramount of the Trident. Also, the title of Warden is completely unrelated - it is non-hereditary and has nothing to do with property.

[Talleyrand]

Being the owner of a castle does not automatically grant you any other titles. Like how Emmon Frey being Lord of Riverrun does not make him Lord Paramount of the Trident. Also, the title of Warden is completely unrelated - it is non-hereditary and has nothing to do with property.

I never claimed that being Warden had anything to do with property. Warden is the supreme military leader for the region he controls in times of war, such as right now in ASOIAF, placing Roose in charge of Ramsay

[Alexia]

Well, Cersei married Robert Baratheon and became queen regent after his death. Yet I certainly had the impression that she remained subservient to her father despite that. You can hold several different roles in the feudal society of Westeros, which makes the determination where you are on the social ladder really difficult.

That was because of Cersei herself. Tyrion notes that Tywin should be asking Cersei's leave to go, not the other way around. She outranks Tywin.

[Tini]

I think that it is the same with many other noble people in Westeros. There is the rank they hold, then there are family ties, friendships, debts, offices. It is hard to say who outranks whom, and under which circumstances.

[Erinne]

I never claimed that being Warden had anything to do with property. Warden is the supreme military leader for the region he controls in times of war, such as right now in ASOIAF, placing Roose in charge of Ramsay

Ack, you're right of course. Sorry, I think I kinda lost the point I was making with that post.

[mediocre cheese]

Aaaand we're back to the Baratheon vs. Targaryen argument.

This has been done already, but what's a web forum for if not for re-litigating things over and over again?

In brief, the Baratheons began as usurpers, but through operation of history (that is, the passage of time and the acquiescence of their subjects), acquired legitimacy. When AGoT begins, some 15 years after the death of Aerys, Robert is king. Robert Baratheon is King of all Westeros. Every major house in every region acknowledges it. The Iron Bank acknowledges it. House Martell doesn't like it, but they acknowledge it. Robert was king, and Stannis is his heir because Joffrey and Tommen are not Robert's sons.

If Stannis loses this war absolutely, then the Lannister usurpation gets retroactively legitimized just as the Baratheon usurpation did. But he hasn't lost yet.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you seemed to arbitrarily drawing a line in the sand here. Viserys never abrogates his claim, he is driven into exile, but he never stops calling himself king of westeros. The only difference with stannis is that he has retained a small base in the north. As of the end of DWD, tommen is the king of 5 of the seven kingdoms, (Dorne, the west, the reach, the eyrie, and the riverlands all swear allegiance to him), while most of the stormlords and a significant percentage of the north is controlled by forces loyal to him. Stannis controls a single castle (storm's end) and has the loyalty of about half of the north.

Say 5 years pass and stannis is still fighting with roose bolton in the north, while the other six kingdoms continue to acknowledge tommen as the king. Will not the passage of time and the acquiescence of his subjects legitimize tommen as king of those 6 kingdoms? What if Viserys, rather than be forced across the sea managed to hold on to dragonstone, while the rest of the seven kingdoms openly obeyed robert? Would the baratheons still have been legitimized than (as viserys was still king of a tiny party of westeros)? . It seems to me your using an arbitrary and meaningless distinction between when a war is over and when it isn't. If stannis were to take the iron throne at this point it would be just as much a conquest as if dany were to do so.

[Kate Poem]

If His Grace will die, Tommen would be play with his kittens in peace until Others or Danaerys kill him or dethronise.

/gravely/

I hope nothing similar will not happen.

Edit : I meant these deaths. Tommen Waters is innocent in all this mess and I don't want King's death, no, no, no.

But, of course, everything is in Martin's hands.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Hmm, all right. I will try. First Melisandre. On the beginning. And earlier good maester Cressen's advice. You wrote king Stannis should say "Yes" for... for... eee... practically... disuniting a Kingdoms. I know, they weren't united "body and soul", but - but did exist central power. Am I right? One King = 7 Kingdoms = Peace.

Good maester Cressen proposed some alliances if I understood good: with Robb, with Renly or with Lysa Arryn. Some part of Kingdoms, bigger or smaller would belong to Stannis. Stannis did'nt want a power for... power. I think. His brother was a king of Seven Kingdoms. He knew what he should do. He did'nt want BEGIN a disunity. He did'nt want be a part of it in any way, but he began thinking about it and - Melisandre appeared.

Second:

Stannis looks quite unfit even for a plain Lord, honestly. Not because he is grim, but because he is unwise and way, way too self-righteous, and has less than nothing to show to justify such a generous self-image.

Everyone knew about Stannis everything. Robert laughed from him, disrespected him, Renly spat in his face, he is'nt charismatic, he is boring, stiff, he gritted his teeth, his feasts are sillent, he drinks not a wine, his meals are common, his clothes are common, his wife has mustache, his daughter has ugly face...

He is just. He is fair. He works hard. He sat in his brother's council. He fought and starved for him. He treated all people equally. He is good commander in the battle. He did'nt lie. He did'nt sugarcoat things. Punishments for bad, rewards for loyal service. He would'nt be lost a dragons from Crown Treasure for stupid friwolities. He listened good advices. Law will be law. He can admit his mistakes. He will say truth in the face etc. etc.

I am not sure king Stannis wholeheartedly believes in Azor Ahai thing. It seems all thing is tiring for him. He must only become King. Alternatives did'nt exist.

His sincerity was - is... refreshing in some way..

I probably wasted a time... /sigh/

I hope my babbling is understandable.

Kate,

I love your posts! You are very understandable and do not babble. Your translated thoughts are concise, unadulterated and a joy to read:)

I'm firmly in the "King Stannis" camp but I sure do wish he'd lose the lady in red. Anyone willing to burn a baby is not on the right path.

[Frozen Soul]

I might be wrong but I got a feeling HE got kinda of dumped from the moment she decided to stay on the wall.