Ser Loudmouth Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 I see the Others as fundamentally alien, so the notions of "good" and "evil" may not really apply to them. But if they did, the Others would definitely be evil. They have been hostile to Humans (and other life forms) on every occasion we have seen them so far, and never attempted to communicate or negotiate.They obviously have their own "land" where they lived for many thousands of years, so then are not being "opressed" by humans or something like that. They are the ones moving into human lands. They are conquerors and colonizers and if they want to be "understood" they should seek first to understand those they are displacing. The war thus far has been 100% their initiative, so if we wanted to judge them by our standards, they would be evil.But I don't necessarily want them to be evil. I just want them to be alien and scary, because the story works best this way. The worst thing that could happen to this stories is if it turned into an attempt to humanize the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fassreiter Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Whether the Others are 'evil' or not might not even be to the point (they are different, that's what is important, I hope they don't get humanized), instead I think/hope they work as a catalyst in the narrative to bring on the 'real' problem: first the Others, then the dragons, and then the power struggle starts (again). I want to see humanity fight itself, this is the only kind of story that has any true meaning, right? It would be great if the hero that was promised (or whatever) destroys the Others (as promised), but turns out to be the real nuisance after all. 28 Days Later-like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryjacork Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Im pretty sure the Others are every bit as evil as they seem, and if they do have any good in them Im not sure it will ever really play a role in the series. Honestly im not sure if Martin will ever go much into their motives and origins, the thing that makes them so scary right now is the fact that nobody knows much of anything about them. They are just these mysterious ice demons that show up with armies of the dead killing everything in sight. To define them is to ruin them IMO. Unless GRRM can come up with a way of doing it that maintains their mystiqe and terror inspiration.As far as the thing about them teaming up with the Starks or playing the game of thrones, I think thats ridiculas. Dont get me wrong, I would love to see the Starks rise again with an army of Others and Wights, maybe an undead Eddard, or Robb complete with wolf head to get back at all those in the seven kingdoms who derseve it... But its not going to happen. Set aside the fact that the realm fears and hates the Others more than anything els, and ANY house that allied with them for any reason would be demonized by the rest of Westeros. But the Starks are the wardens of the north, they have always been the second line of defense after the Wall against the Others and Wildlings and such in the north. For fucks sake Bran the Builder was made the first King in the North after building the Wall to keep the Others the Hell out...Now if there is a twist i think its going to be that R'hllor and the Great Other are the same being, two sides of a coin. Fire = Ice, Good = Evil, etc etc. And everything happening is just this beings twisted little way of playing with the world like a giant mean little boy with a magnifying glass playing with the ants. Thus expressing GRRMs nihilistic, fucked up, Cormac Mcarthy wanking view of the world.Until the last book where the Drown God comes up and tentacle fucks this great R'hllor/Other God and the Ironborn take over the world... KRAKENS FOREVER BITCHEZZZZ!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackfyre Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Whether the Others are truly "evil" or not might be irrelevant, if their interests happen to be fundamentally incompatible with human interests. They could be doing only what they need to do to survivie... but if that includes feeding on humans, for example, the result will be bad for people anyway, regardless of their actual motives.Now, do you remember actually seeing in the books an Other attacking first? Wights yes, they attack first all the time, but actual White Walkers? I can't really remember. All I can recall are instances where the Others are approaching, and then someone jumps forward to attack them with a sword, or people start loosing arrows on them before they can get close... have you noticed that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val the Wildling Princess Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Now, do you remember actually seeing in the books an Other attacking first? Wights yes, they attack first all the time, but actual White Walkers? I can't really remember. All I can recall are instances where the Others are approaching, and then someone jumps forward to attack them with a sword, or people start loosing arrows on them before they can get close... have you noticed that?I don't have the books with me right now but I think the only attacks we've seen from the Others were against men of the NW. I cannot remember the exact situation, in the AGOT prologue they killed Waymar Royce but they didn't kill Will (he was killed by wightWaymar!) and Gared got to run away, did they let him go? Or maybe he was just lucky, but seems a bit odd :dunno: And then there's the attack on the Fist of the First Men. Oh, and never forgetting we have a missing Benken Stark, I don't think he is Coldhands but I don't think he is dead either. However, I suppose that for the Others the NW is the enemy, so it seems logical to attack an enemy that is invading their territory. It would be interesting to know how the attacks on the wildlings happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyron Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 According to Tormund the WWs only took those that fell behind, or got lost, from his group. He seemed to fear the cold more than anything.And about the Fist of First Men, was there any white walkers attacking then? As far as I remember there were only wights.The white walkers don't kill everything in their way, they didn't kill Craster and his family, that is why he stayed behind in his home when every other wildling had left their home village.I think they need the wights because they can pass through the Wall, the white walkers themselves may be unable to do so because of whatever magic is in it. It could also be that the WWs fear that all men will be armed with obsidian, they wouldn't know it's very rare this time, so they use the wights as a van to avoid being killed immediately, possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackfyre Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Here's Waymar Royce's passage, from the Prologue of AGoT:A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss.“Come no farther,” the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy’s. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.” He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant.Royce warns the White Walker not to come any closer, but how can we be sure the Walker understood him? The creature had a sword in hand, but was it actually meaning to attack? I guess we'll never know, since Royce attacked first.At the Fist, I believe something similar happened - the men of the Night's Watch started shooting arrows when the Walkers approached their camp... but did the Others actually do anything first?ETA: Now that Eira mentioned it... indeed, was that Walkers? Or just wights?I realize I might me pushing it, but still it keeps me wondering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val the Wildling Princess Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 And about the Fist of First Men, was there any white walkers attacking then? As far as I remember there were only wights.I cannot remember to be honest, you may be right and there were only wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyron Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Hm, I will have to reread that to be sure if I didn't just miss the white walkers... It was a little while since I read that chapter now :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryjacork Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Maybe Ramsay bolton is misunderstood as well... I mean have we ever actually seen him skin anybody? That damn Theon is just a liar IMO...Honestly at this point I think its just a strech, the thing starts comming twords him with a sword drawn its pretty clear its hostile, set aside all the wights that they create. Plus Tormund said himself that they would come in the night and kill whatever they would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falrinn Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Maybe Ramsay bolton is misunderstood as well... I mean have we ever actually seen him skin anybody? That damn Theon is just a liar IMO...Honestly at this point I think its just a strech, the thing starts comming twords him with a sword drawn its pretty clear its hostile, set aside all the wights that they create. Plus Tormund said himself that they would come in the night and kill whatever they would.True, but at the end of the day we've seen maybe a dozen Others total. Even if we accept them as irredeemably evil, how can we be sure they represent all or even a majority of their race?At any rate, the key to my theory is that the Others (or at least the ones we've seen) have a horribly inaccurate view of humanity due to 8,000 years of mutual isolation. They attack without provocation because they see Humans exactly as Humans see the Others, as beings of pure evil who cannot possibly to reasoned with.The bottom line of course remains the simple fact that I don't believe GRRM would spend years upon years of his life creating an intricate web of political conflict only to throw it all out the window once the Others launch a full offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryjacork Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 True, but at the end of the day we've seen maybe a dozen Others total. Even if we accept them as irredeemably evil, how can we be sure they represent all or even a majority of their race?At any rate, the key to my theory is that the Others (or at least the ones we've seen) have a horribly inaccurate view of humanity due to 8,000 years of mutual isolation. They attack without provocation because they see Humans exactly as Humans see the Others, as beings of pure evil who cannot possibly to reasoned with.The Wildlings are willing to make common cause with Giants, accept Skinwalkers, and coexist with Children of the Forrest, all of which are considered alien or evil by the rest of the world. For that matter the Children and Giants also hate and fear the Others. At the very least the Others may not be evil, but are akin to a force of nature thats intent to wipe out hummanity and replace it with wights. And if Others do have intelligence on par with humans then they are evil, as aposed to dragons which are more like animals that dont know any better.The bottom line of course remains the simple fact that I don't believe GRRM would spend years upon years of his life creating an intricate web of political conflict only to throw it all out the window once the Others launch a full offensive. I think thats actually the whole point, all these lords and kings and queens spend all this time and blood fighting and scheming over the Iron throne, weakening the realm, when the real enemy is out there wanting to wipe out everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryjacork Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 There was this one line that the Old Bear said to Jon in AGOT, idk if it was in the book or just added for the show, but it describes the whole thing with the Others great. "When dead men... and worse, come for us in the night, do you think it matters who sits on the Iron throne?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summerqueen Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 True, but at the end of the day we've seen maybe a dozen Others total. Even if we accept them as irredeemably evil, how can we be sure they represent all or even a majority of their race?At any rate, the key to my theory is that the Others (or at least the ones we've seen) have a horribly inaccurate view of humanity due to 8,000 years of mutual isolation. They attack without provocation because they see Humans exactly as Humans see the Others, as beings of pure evil who cannot possibly to reasoned with.The bottom line of course remains the simple fact that I don't believe GRRM would spend years upon years of his life creating an intricate web of political conflict only to throw it all out the window once the Others launch a full offensive.We can't. But no human is going out there to pick a fight with them either. They are advancing into human territory in force. It doesn't matter that they don't try to strike first when they have you surrounded and invaded your territory. That means they are Up To No Good.Honestly, I think GRRM means the Others to be used metaphorically. They represent threats that should not be ignored and really ought to bring everyone together. Environmental disasters, for example, the threat of nuclear power or IDK, could be lots of things. If they are just another group of non-threatening marginalized victims, who cares? And why are they moving in without trying to talk first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeyouintee Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Nah, they probably just want to talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noimporta Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 They are advancing into human territory in force.Not necessarily, all encounters with Others are north of the wall, what if it's the humans that are advancing over their territory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val the Wildling Princess Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Not necessarily, all encounters with Others are north of the wall, what if it's the humans that are advancing over their territory?That's what I said before, actually, have we seen any attempt of the Others to get past the Wall? Not wights but WW, well, the NW's were the ones who got the wights to Castle Black. So I guess until we know what happened in Hardhome we cannot be sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojen Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I have a crackpot theory (although maybe this belongs--or even already exists--in the "Heresy" thread):The Others seem alien because they are, in fact, from outer space, having arrived via Red Comets (aka spaceships). Records of previous comets/transports have been lost or destroyed, perhaps by the Maesters, whom we are told by Archmaester Marwyn are responsible for killing off the last known dragons (the "Fire" to the Others' "Ice"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackfyre Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 The Others seem alien because they are, in fact, from outer space, having arrived via Red Comets (aka spaceships). Oh no, please, no. :uhoh: I like my medieval fantasy to be separated from my science fiction, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summerqueen Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 That's what I said before, actually, have we seen any attempt of the Others to get past the Wall? Not wights but WW, well, the NW's were the ones who got the wights to Castle Black. So I guess until we know what happened in Hardhome we cannot be sure Someone has to be making all the wights. And wights still count as part of the Others force. You do agree that the wights are bent to the Others' will? That everyone not colluding with the Others on the other side of the Wall is being slaughtered? It really seemed so to me.My own theory is that the Others aren't moving in to lands that aren't yet in the full grip of winter, but winter is coming. We will see the Others at the Wall eventually, for sure. Sam was not in Otherland when he killed that one with the obsidian blade. There may not even be that many Others, but in any case they will come in the "heart" of Winter according to Bran's vision, I'm supposing. IIRC, the white ravens were just sent out. Give them some time to advance, and I bet we'll see them at the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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