The Others, are they really the evil they appear to be?

[Arya kiddin']

Others are evil only if they lose :fencing:

Yeah that's it with history. It's not that those who are evil lose, but those who lose are remembered as evil.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I've long suspected that the Others were the result of the breaking of the pact. The First Men agreed not to cut down any more weirwoods... If someone did in fact cut some down, perhaps the Others are the creation of the Old Gods to exact vengeance. I think it's interesting that the CotF first did the Hammer of Waters that destroyed the land bridge and separated themselves from Essos. Next they did the Hammer of Waters at the Neck, and which it didn't completely separate them from the South, it did make a very defensible area that basically separated them from Southern Westeros. Then came the Long Night, and the result of that was to build the wall, cutting off the extreme North from the rest of the continent. The CotF retreated even further North, and once again became separated from the rest of Westeros. Then, of course, the Andals invaded, and removed most of the remaining Weirwoods, including the sacred ones at High Hill, but it was on the other side of the Wall, where they couldn't do anything about it. Now, though, magic is returning to the world in strength, and perhaps the Horn of Joramun has been found, which could destroy the wall and let the Others loose on the world once again.

[Sigurður Ingi]

I always thinks that the others and dragon represent the old times the age of magic which is now lost and gone for the world of men makes me wonder if GRRM plans to end the series with rise of age of magic unlike what Tolkien did with Lord of Rings series by ending with rise of world of men.

[Mithras]

I've long suspected that the Others were the result of the breaking of the pact. The First Men agreed not to cut down any more weirwoods... If someone did in fact cut some down, perhaps the Others are the creation of the Old Gods to exact vengeance. I think it's interesting that the CotF first did the Hammer of Waters that destroyed the land bridge and separated themselves from Essos. Next they did the Hammer of Waters at the Neck, and which it didn't completely separate them from the South, it did make a very defensible area that basically separated them from Southern Westeros. Then came the Long Night, and the result of that was to build the wall, cutting off the extreme North from the rest of the continent. The CotF retreated even further North, and once again became separated from the rest of Westeros. Then, of course, the Andals invaded, and removed most of the remaining Weirwoods, including the sacred ones at High Hill, but it was on the other side of the Wall, where they couldn't do anything about it. Now, though, magic is returning to the world in strength, and perhaps the Horn of Joramun has been found, which could destroy the wall and let the Others loose on the world once again.

I find this pattern very interesting.

[Arya Stark Rules]

I agree with the OP the others are not purely evil just misunderstood.

[thung]

I see the Others as completely alien, with goals and needs that are so different from humans that they can't find some sort of compromise. The Night's King, for example, married an Other but it doesn't seem as though she compromised anything. In fact, I think the story went something along the lines of "When he gave her his seed he surrendered his soul," or something like that. It doesn't really seem like she gave up anything to make that marriage work.

It's hard to know what the Others' motivation is, or what their civilization or culture is even like. I hope that we hear more about that in the next book. An Other POV chapter would be awesome...

But we only know the humans perspective of the Night's king and Ice Queen liasion. Perhaps the others also have a cautionary tale as to why their kind shouldn't consort with the evil humans.

[ummester]

I always thinks that the others and dragon represent the old times the age of magic which is now lost and gone for the world of men makes me wonder if GRRM plans to end the series with rise of age of magic unlike what Tolkien did with Lord of Rings series by ending with rise of world of men.

Yep

But we only know the humans perspective of the Night's king and Ice Queen liasion. Perhaps the others also have a cautionary tale as to why their kind shouldn't consort with the evil humans.

And yep.

I just can't see this saga ending well for the 7 kingdoms - I don't think magic is coming back for the benefit of the human's in the realm. This ain't no Harry Potter or LoTRs, the way I'm reading it. The characters, though interesting, all seem to have such a limited grasp of their world - the free folk may be closer to understanding it than any of them but even they aren't truly getting it.

[Frey Kings]

The Others are nomadic people with ice magic pumping through them. I use to think they're good with no bad intentions but now I think they're evil and twisted towards everyone else. The Others are only adaptable to colder areas and now since Winter is approaching everywhere, it makes them more comfortable and to move south to plunder and loot and whatever.

Others =/= Dragons. Others are a subgroup of the human race just like the children of the forest. If the common people didn't stick up for themselves they will be covered with Others and Dragons and whatnot. Humans just won the war.

There is magic, There are religions but I don't believe we will ever get a clear cut definition from GRRM. It could never be explained logically. Its something we must let go and just enjoy the storyline.

But Yes, The others are BAD PEOPLE as of this moment. So are people that use magic, religion, and dragons yadayada, Its all a threat against the common people.

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

Not only do I think that the Others are not as evil as they appear to be, I also don't think that the Others are what they appear to be; that is, an irrationally evil demonic force of non-human beings. I believe the Others are essentially normal humans (or at least, they were normal humans at one time) that have used R'hllor-esque resurrection magic on themselves for thousands of years, until they "lost all the fire of life" and became icy wraith-like creatures. I also think they are fundamentally tied to the Starks, if not even the very descendants of the Starks and the First Men themselves. I believe that when winter truly comes, the Others will eventually aid the North and thus the Starks (who will see a very satisfying - and very brutal - return to power) in a battle against Daenarys and her combined southern armies. Fire and Ice, on opposite sides. Two houses utterly destroyed, only for them to return as superpowers at the end of the series to decide the fate of Westeros. The Targaryens have dragons, the Starks have the Others. There are just too many hints and connotations for the prospect to be ignored. The Starks were the Kings of Winter, their castle is called Winterfell, the deceased Starks in their crypts require iron swords to "lock them in their graves" because their spirits were known to become restless, etc. Hell, even their motto is Winter is Coming. And what two factions in all of Westeros are the most consistently associated with winter?

The Starks and the Others.

It aIn't no coincidence.

You have an active imagination.

The Others bring death to all.

[Frey Kings]

The Others are Necromancers that raise the dead for their needs. How could they possibly be good?

[chrisdaw]

Moral of the story here is that everyone needs to set aside their differences, rivalries and trespasses and co-operate or everyone will die.

Making the Others anything other than a clearly evil force undermines his.

[Cladinator]

Where are you deriving your theories about The Others from? You seem to have this whole backstory for them but the reader hasn't been given nearly enough information yet.

I don't share the idea that The Others are just "misunderstood". In a story that tinkers very heavily with moral relativism I don't think we're likely to see The Others as anything other than evil. From a story writer's point of view I can't see the benefit of introducing The Others - going through all this storyline, only to find out that The Others are just a group of bros that are misunderstood.

Right. They just want to venture south to vacation where it's warm.

On the contrary, the classic good vs evil seems more likely (and far more appealing).

The idea that all this stuff going on in the realm as far as wars, political upheaval, etc, etc, while a quiet doom in the North makes plans to wipe out the realms of men, is much more interesting.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

Yes, they are super evil. They may be a force of nature (through magic) which means they are destruction incarnate, but I think the resulted from some kind of mistake or attempt to gain power through an evil act long ago that messed up the seasons and unleashed the others. I also think the magic of the Shadowlands and the land of always Winter are connected and equally evil.

The Others are Death incarnate. Ice and cold are death to humanity just as fire is. Nice people don't use zombie armies.

[ummester]

I've long suspected that the Others were the result of the breaking of the pact. The First Men agreed not to cut down any more weirwoods... If someone did in fact cut some down, perhaps the Others are the creation of the Old Gods to exact vengeance. I think it's interesting that the CotF first did the Hammer of Waters that destroyed the land bridge and separated themselves from Essos. Next they did the Hammer of Waters at the Neck, and which it didn't completely separate them from the South, it did make a very defensible area that basically separated them from Southern Westeros. Then came the Long Night, and the result of that was to build the wall, cutting off the extreme North from the rest of the continent. The CotF retreated even further North, and once again became separated from the rest of Westeros. Then, of course, the Andals invaded, and removed most of the remaining Weirwoods, including the sacred ones at High Hill, but it was on the other side of the Wall, where they couldn't do anything about it. Now, though, magic is returning to the world in strength, and perhaps the Horn of Joramun has been found, which could destroy the wall and let the Others loose on the world once again.

If what you describe here is a correct interpretation (and it could well be) then the Others represent the army of the oppressed and the humans the oppressors. The Others represent the last of those that are prepared to fight for the old ways, the old magical trees and all that, before it is lost to the advance of humanity forever.

Moral of the story here is that everyone needs to set aside their differences, rivalries and trespasses and co-operate or everyone will die.

Making the Others anything other than a clearly evil force undermines his.

At first, after the first 2 episodes of the show, before I'd read any of the books or seen all of the show, I thought that was the basic moral reasoning behind the story. Now, I don't think so.

I think the moral now is more like - sometimes things can be pushed so far that there is no saving them, sometimes the only solution is annihilation and wiping the slate clean.

Yes, they are super evil. They may be a force of nature (through magic) which means they are destruction incarnate, but I think the resulted from some kind of mistake or attempt to gain power through an evil act long ago that messed up the seasons and unleashed the others. I also think the magic of the Shadowlands and the land of always Winter are connected and equally evil.

The Others are Death incarnate. Ice and cold are death to humanity just as fire is. Nice people don't use zombie armies.

If you have a family of mice in your roof, you bait them, so you can sleep at night and to safe the structure of your house. From the perspective of the mice, that's destruction incarnate. From your perspective, you are protecting whats yours. From the houses perspective, it needs the mice gone.

In ASoIaF the people could be like the mice, the Others the homeowners and the house Planetos.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Where are you deriving your theories about The Others from? You seem to have this whole backstory for them but the reader hasn't been given nearly enough information yet.

I don't share the idea that The Others are just "misunderstood". In a story that tinkers very heavily with moral relativism I don't think we're likely to see The Others as anything other than evil. From a story writer's point of view I can't see the benefit of introducing The Others - going through all this storyline, only to find out that The Others are just a group of bros that are misunderstood.

Right. They just want to venture south to vacation where it's warm.

On the contrary, the classic good vs evil seems more likely (and far more appealing).

The idea that all this stuff going on in the realm as far as wars, political upheaval, etc, etc, while a quiet doom in the North makes plans to wipe out the realms of men, is much more interesting.

Perhaps.

But I have a feeling that Jon will be leading a northern army supported by the Starks, Bloodraven, the WW, Wildlings and the northerners against Dany and her army with Aegon leading a third from the far south....a real Dance with Dragons. But that is just me....and probably wrong

As far as them being misunderstood, they are only lightly touched upon when you consider the amount of text between the five books, and perhaps not misunderstood but underwritten.

[ummester]

If the Others were really the 'evil' threat in this story, they would be portrayed as a constant threat and not in the obscure way they have been.

[Cladinator]

Perhaps.

But I have a feeling that Jon will be leading a northern army supported by the Starks, Bloodraven, the WW, Wildlings and the northerners against Dany and her army with Aegon leading a third from the far south....a real Dance with Dragons. But that is just me....and probably wrong

As far as them being misunderstood, they are only lightly touched upon when you consider the amount of text between the five books, and perhaps not misunderstood but underwritten.

That would be a pretty interesting way for the story to go. I'd welcome it and enjoy reading it. At this point it sounds more likely than some of the theories that people come up with. What it comes down to is that it's time for a new book so this speculation can come to an end.

I agree that they are underwritten rather than misunderstood. That's about the only accurate thing we can say about their story line so far.

But hey, they might actually end up being misunderstood. It's too early to make that call at this point.

[Cladinator]

If the Others were really the 'evil' threat in this story, they would be portrayed as a constant threat and not in the obscure way they have been.

Would they? How are you so sure of that?

[JonisHenryTudor]

What it comes down to is that it's time for a new book so this speculation can come to an end.

Yep.

[ummester]

Would they? How are you so sure of that?

Pretty sure. 95%

Besides, the show has shown what the White Walkers do with human babies and its less nasty than what some humans in the story have done to them. Both books and show are heading to basically the same place - if the Other's were evil incarnate, in light of the things we have experienced the people in the show and books doing, they would have to do something worse to infants than make them immortal popsicles to feel relatively nasty.