Skaraher Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I don't really think Others are evil. They are more like a force of nature that can't be tamed nor stopped. A part of a larger cycle. Concepts like morality can't apply to them. Is cold evil ? Is fire evil ? They are phenomenons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 I don't really think Others are evil. They are more like a force of nature that can't be tamed nor stopped. A part of a larger cycle. Concepts like morality can't apply to them. Is cold evil ? Is fire evil ? They are phenomenons. Yea, exactly - except they are magical phenomenons that have some connection to the humans in the story, like dragons. I find the easiest way to think of the Others is like the cold elementals on the other side of the bifrost bridge in Nordic mythology. GRRM described them as Sidhe or Aos hi, from celtic mythology but Sidhe are more based on faries/light elves from Nordic mythology and the CotF are very much like the dwarf/gnomes/dark elf strain of mythology. In any case, the Others are the closest thing in ASoIaF to elves, elementals, spiritual forest being type things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Joe the Unknighted Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 well except that the CotF are also Elvish/fae and the mortal enemies of the CotF are the Others. The invasion of the Others was able to unite the CotF and the First Men to oppose them. I think the biggest difference between us is that I believe that humanity is inherently worth saving. Humanity as a whole is capable of being good. We can do evil too, but we are also capable of doing great good. I believe humanity is always trying to do better. We try to do better than the generation before us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Seems to me the Others are an ill force from the pov of both the CotF as well as humans. But are they 'evil'? Not sure. Maybe they just seek to expand territory for their own kind. Or they have a pet peeve of something humans did to them once, kindof like First men versus CotF but at least these two made a pact, until the Andals came with iron to burn the weirwoods. From GRRM's descriptions they are kindof like Sidhe (elves), but basically ice-elves. Something similar can be found in Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series. There you have Sidhe living kindof peacefully with humans, but when the men with iron invade they hunt Sidhe - a faction retreats in the woods, but another faction turns to the darkness and cold and become ice-Sidhe who bring everlasting winter with them, in order to return their king of old who's hellbent on finding a human vessel to have his revenge on humanity for the death of his queen. The two Sidhe factions are enemies of each other. Possibly somethign similar is going on in GRRM's world, involving the Night's King or Night's Queen. However, the CotF do not seem to stem from the same race or mother branch. And it sounds like the Others were always winter/ice creatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I'm gunning for the Others Cladinator, because I think the story is deliberately crafted in a way that will have it's 'heroes' (namely Dany and Jon) save the world by destroying it - I think this is the tale being told. Dragons will be Dany's instrument of destruction and Others will be Bran and Jon's and they will use these instruments to wipe the realm free of Lannisters, Boltons, Freys, the Iron Throne and all the evil that it instills in the hearts of men. It's not that I think the Others are protagonists - it's that I think the Iron Throne is the true antagonist in the story and only it's destruction, via Others and dragons, will set Westeros free to be ready for the Spring. Yeah, the IT is something very evil - brings out the worst in people to have power over others... Reminds me of Emperor Claudius who rambles at his old age, "Let all the muck rise from the mud," hoping it will expose their evil (Nero and his mother) and for humans to reject it... alas Claudius fails at it, and basically put 666 on the Roman Empirical seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Joe the Unknighted Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 When the Others tried before to "expand territory" they took all of Westeros down to Dorne and brought a generation long winter for the whole world. The whole world has legends of this long winter that devastated the world. The Others are Bad News. They are the destruction of man. They are alien and dark. They melt from fire and shy away from the sun. They only come during the extreme cold when the sun is either set or obscured. All signs point to evil. The wildlings fear them and are fleeing before them. They reanimate the dead and use them as an army against the living. They are a force of destruction and death. They are the night, they are winter, they are ice, the cold, and death. They are the doom of man. There is no peace to be made with them. You cannot reason with the cold, you cannot negotiate with winter, a blizzard cannot be bargained with. Winter and cold are the enemies of life. The Night is Dark and Full of Terrors, and Winter is Coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connartist92 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I believe GRRM has stated than no group is pure 100% evil in his world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 well except that the CotF are also Elvish/fae and the mortal enemies of the CotF are the Others. The invasion of the Others was able to unite the CotF and the First Men to oppose them. I think the biggest difference between us is that I believe that humanity is inherently worth saving. Humanity as a whole is capable of being good. We can do evil too, but we are also capable of doing great good. I believe humanity is always trying to do better. We try to do better than the generation before us. Why are you so sure the CotF and the Others are enemies? It is very unclear what happened with the Other invasion - what is clear is that the CotF and humans had a pact, which humans broke and then the Others came. The end of the Pact/Age of Heroes was the start of the Long Night. After the Long Night the Wall was built and all of the magical/otherworldly races went North - CotF, Giants, Others - all of them. The Nights King, quite possibly the first White Walker and an Other, was more or less the human compliment that went North with them. Just because the humans in ASoIaF may be more antagonistic to Westeros than the Others, doesn't mean you cant like humans in real life. It's a fantasy series, it is meant to explore ideas as a kind of mirror to reality - it is meant to make you think about humans, whilst realizing, at the same time, that you don't have to think of its humans exactly the same way you think of real humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Yeah, the IT is something very evil - brings out the worst in people to have power over others... Reminds me of Emperor Claudius who rambles at his old age, "Let all the muck rise from the mud," hoping it will expose their evil (Nero and his mother) and for humans to reject it... alas Claudius fails at it, and basically put 666 on the Roman Empirical seat. All of the strife in the saga revolves around it - I swear, it is the One Ring of ASoIaF. And I think this is where GRRMs subversion is really clever - he is taking the piss out of us (and himself), he's taking the piss out of modern people in general with his saga. He's getting us to become invested in all these characters given over to the corruption of greed and selfish desire and see ourselves in them at the same time. I just hope he makes a solid point with it all at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Joe the Unknighted Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I believe GRRM has stated than no group is pure 100% evil in his world. No people are 100% evil. But the Others are not people. They are not even organic. They are literally made of Ice. The humans must stop their fighting and unite to confront the Others. Fighting is for the summer, in the winter people must band together to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 One thing I'm sure of: The others spell Doom for mankind. Thing I'm not sure of: What that means - could be anything from "oppressed rising against oppressors" to "unstoppable force of nature" I really seriously mega doubt any human "heros" will join with the Others (with 1 possible exception, see below). But especially not Jon. This seems to be wishful thinking from people that really really really want Jon to be on an opposite side from Dany. He is not going to ally with a bunch of guys that kill innocents and raise the dead. Jon is a good person and he is not all about the death of the innocents. He also would not support any faction that wants to make war against the north - Jon shows no signs of being a revolutionary when it comes to feudalism. On the other hand, based on Bran's material from adwd I think there's a slight chance that The Others are in league with the CotF. The Children are clearly an oppressed minority with legitimate cause to hate all humans, and while they fought against The Others once, I could see them deciding that they chose wrong. So now they've formed a new pact with The Others to get rid of mankind once and for all and split Westeros between them. Bloodraven, I think, too has decided that mankind is not worth saving, and he has recruited the strongest warg in centuries to help him. Bran may not even know what he is doing, or he may love warging so much that he doesn't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Yes. And there's nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I really seriously mega doubt any human "heros" will join with the Others (with 1 possible exception, see below). But especially not Jon. This seems to be wishful thinking from people that really really really want Jon to be on an opposite side from Dany. He is not going to ally with a bunch of guys that kill innocents and raise the dead. Jon is a good person and he is not all about the death of the innocents. He also would not support any faction that wants to make war against the north - Jon shows no signs of being a revolutionary when it comes to feudalism. The theory is not that Jon will oppose Dany but rather that Jon and Dany will work together (either wittingly or unwittingly - Bran can warg people and probably dragons and is under Bloodravens spell) , using the forces of Ice and Fire, to try and wipe mankind from Westeros. Jon has now, literally, been stabbed in the guts by the 'good people' he was trying to protect - you don't think this will have any effect on his rebirth (probably as the next Nights King). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I believe that they are as evil as the dragons. No people are 100% evil. But the Others are not people. They are not even organic. They are literally made of Ice. Only we don't know that. That is just speculation and nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 yes things are what they appear to be until that perception changes at which point the level of evilness is adjusted accordingly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 The dragons are connected to the Others somehow and I don't know how. The Targaryen's are not evil. They are people. Some good, some bad. I think Dragons were created through blood magic by the precursors of Valyria. I also think they are somehow connected to the doom and the shadowlands. I don't know the answers. People seem to be able to control dragons and in some ways they are just magical animals. I don't know what exactly the dragons are but the wild dragons seemed to let people alone for the most part, they were only used to kill as tools of war by people. War is evil. Ok but my point still is this. If the Others are bad because they appear to kill indiscriminately (actually they appear to be recruiting not killing), then how can you give the dragons as pass. And since the Targs preside over the dragons, how can we excuse them? Let's flip this a bit. Poison gas is a terrible tool for war. Nuclear bombs are terrible. One country presides over nukes. So the weapons are evil, but the person who controls the weapons are somehow excused? This is all under the understanding that said country understands/still uses said weapon in spite of its nature. I am not attempting to make a political statement here, just using a modern example of a similar situation. I personally feel that this is a situation where you can't have one without the other. Either we have to admit that both dragons and the others are "evil" and those whom use them as tools are no better. Which I presume would make Targ/Dany fans very uncomfortable. Or we have to admit that they are neither evil nor good, and in that case the Targs are cleared but so are the others. If you say the Others are evil but the Dragons are not and the Targs are excused even though they preside over them, the claim is loaded with hypocrisy and contradiction. Such that "we don't like the Others because they turned men by "killing" them, but since I am a Targ fan I love dragons and Dany/Targs in spite of the carnage dragons can unleash". That is almost cherry picking through a biased lens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonisHenryTudor Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I believe that they are as evil as the dragons. Only we don't know that. That is just speculation and nothing more. Yep. yes things are what they appear to be until that perception changes at which point the level of evilness is adjusted accordingly And yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I've seen GRRM comment several times on fantasy writing that makes entire armies of evil things. The Orcs from LOTRs for example.I don't know why he would go make an entirely evil army of Others after such comments.Ps. Dragons aren't any more evil than a sword or a wild animal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lointain Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 The Others only want to expand their lebensraum.Not their fault that some untermensch still ocuppy the lands that are rightfully theirs.Any similarity with others it is pure coincidence. Seriously, if 1/10 of what we read about them is true, they make a mixing of Assyrians, Huns, Mongols and Germans seem like a bunch of cute kittens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drekinn Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 They could be superior to humans the same way humans are superior to animals. From the animal's POV humans would look quite evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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