The Others, are they really the evil they appear to be?

[Minuteman]

I think the Others are simply the ice equivalent of dragons. So they are no more or less evil than Dany's dragons.

[bb1180]

The Others....dragons...I don't know if they're the textbook definition of evil, but I strongly suspect that in the end, these two instruments of fire and ice will fight one another and lay waste to everything in their paths, and in the process, both sides will prove themselves a dire threat to the continued existence of humanity and Westeros. If humans survive, it will be because they band together, repel both threats, and save themselves.

[bdub32689]

I doubt that they are pure evil but they are probably the group of people we know the least about.

We know the First Men and the COTF fought and formed a pact. The First Men took out a large number of COTF but they were able to live in peace for a long time and the first men adopted the COTF religion and they mostly got a long

The Others come from the Land of Always winter and push south which becomes know as the long night. Since we do not know the source of their magic its hard to say if winter allowed the others to push further south or if by the other pushing south it created winter or a combination. They used whights to aid in the invasion.

The Nights Watch and the COTF pushed them further north ( The Last Hero with the help of the COTF)

Bran the builder with presumably the help of COTF and giants built the wall with magic to keep them out.

The Queen Other seduces the Lord commander leads to dark times joramon and the starks restore honor to the watch and drive out Nights King.

I don't know if the Others are evil but they were a group of invaders like the Andals. Just like the First Men invaded and fought the COTF the only difference was eventually the COTF and the first men got along and eventually the Andals intermarried with the first men to creat alliances and consolidate kingdoms.

It's hard to say if they are evil but its clear that even though they seem to be able to be in relationships with men they never seem to be able to integrate large scale. Partly because I don't think people are able to survive long term in the climate they are suited to.

We still don't know what feeds the Others Magical ability.

While the COTF used to supply the NW with dragon glass weapons the COTF are physically confinded to their wierwood sanctuary and I suspect their nature magic has been leaving the world for a while. Which would mean the magic of the wall is weak.

The Night's Watch used to have about 19 forts/ castles along the wall now they can only man 3 and no longer do noble houses send people to join the watch, it is no longer viewed as needed .

The Others thrive on the squabbles and selfishness of men

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

Ok but my point still is this. If the Others are bad because they appear to kill indiscriminately (actually they appear to be recruiting not killing), then how can you give the dragons as pass. And since the Targs preside over the dragons, how can we excuse them?

Let's flip this a bit.

Poison gas is a terrible tool for war. Nuclear bombs are terrible. One country presides over nukes. So the weapons are evil, but the person who controls the weapons are somehow excused? This is all under the understanding that said country understands/still uses said weapon in spite of its nature. I am not attempting to make a political statement here, just using a modern example of a similar situation.

I personally feel that this is a situation where you can't have one without the other. Either we have to admit that both dragons and the others are "evil" and those whom use them as tools are no better. Which I presume would make Targ/Dany fans very uncomfortable. Or we have to admit that they are neither evil nor good, and in that case the Targs are cleared but so are the others.

If you say the Others are evil but the Dragons are not and the Targs are excused even though they preside over them, the claim is loaded with hypocrisy and contradiction. Such that "we don't like the Others because they turned men by "killing" them, but since I am a Targ fan I love dragons and Dany/Targs in spite of the carnage dragons can unleash". That is almost cherry picking through a biased lens.

The Other recruit the dead. Don't take things you see on the show as cannon, but either way once that baby had been taken and "turned" it was dead. It was no longer human.

"and when he saw a woman from atop the Wall with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars, he chased her and loved her though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years he ruled until finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was discovered that he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of him were destroyed and his very name was forbidden"

The Others kill indiscriminately, they are drawn to life and try to destroy those that are living. Dragons kill to eat. If left alone by humans they are simply magical alpha predators who kill to eat and it just so happens that sometimes humans are on the menu. When commanded by a dragon rider they become a weapon. A terrible, powerful weapon that can kill thousands but only at the urging of their (part) human riders. Yes they were bound using dark blood and fire magic and they are related to Valyria, but not I think to the Doom itself. A terrible person can ride a dragon, like Maegor the cruel, a dragon can be used to do terrible things, like the field of fire or the burning a Harrenhal, or the destruction of Chroyane. But dragons can be ridden by people who do great things, who are generally trying to do good things. King Jahaerys and Queen Alysane both rode dragons, as did many people who did good things and were generally good people. A dragon is an animal. It more accurate to compare it to a war horse.

There is a fire equivalent to the Others. If the Others come from the land of Ice and Darkness, something else comes from the land of fire and shadow. There is something evil in the Shadow as well as possibly beyond the grey waste and the five forts. But it is not dragons, dragons are creatures created by blood and fire magic but they have no goal of world destruction. If left unchecked they wouldn't overrun the world and leave it a smoldering wreck. They may not even be able to breed without human intervention.

The doom was not caused by dragons. It was caused by the Valyrians attempting for thousands of years to hold back the fires of the fourteen flames through magic. When enough of the mages necessary to hold back the fires were killed either through political assassination or intervention of the Faceless Men the fires could no longer be contained and thousands of years of pent up volcanic pressure exploded consuming Valyria in a single day.

The opposite of the terrible thing in the land of always winter that Bloodraven shows Bran in book one in his dream of falling that is coming for man is in the shadow, but right now it is the force of winter that is out of control.

[JonisHenryTudor]

The Other recruit the dead. Don't take things you see on the show as cannon, but either way once that baby had been taken and "turned" it was dead. It was no longer human.

"and when he saw a woman from atop the Wall with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars, he chased her and loved her though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years he ruled until finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was discovered that he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of him were destroyed and his very name was forbidden"

The Others kill indiscriminately, they are drawn to life and try to destroy those that are living. Dragons kill to eat. If left alone by humans they are simply magical alpha predators who kill to eat and it just so happens that sometimes humans are on the menu. When commanded by a dragon rider they become a weapon. A terrible, powerful weapon that can kill thousands but only at the urging of their (part) human riders. Yes they were bound using dark blood and fire magic and they are related to Valyria, but not I think to the Doom itself. A terrible person can ride a dragon, like Maegor the cruel, a dragon can be used to do terrible things, like the field of fire or the burning a Harrenhal, or the destruction of Chroyane. But dragons can be ridden by people who do great things, who are generally trying to do good things. King Jahaerys and Queen Alysane both rode dragons, as did many people who did good things and were generally good people. A dragon is an animal. It more accurate to compare it to a war horse.

There is a fire equivalent to the Others. If the Others come from the land of Ice and Darkness, something else comes from the land of fire and shadow. There is something evil in the Shadow as well as possibly beyond the grey waste and the five forts. But it is not dragons, dragons are creatures created by blood and fire magic but they have no goal of world destruction. If left unchecked they wouldn't overrun the world and leave it a smoldering wreck. They may not even be able to breed without human intervention.

The doom was not caused by dragons. It was caused by the Valyrians attempting for thousands of years to hold back the fires of the fourteen flames through magic. When enough of the mages necessary to hold back the fires were killed either through political assassination or intervention of the Faceless Men the fires could no longer be contained and thousands of years of pent up volcanic pressure exploded consuming Valyria in a single day.

The opposite of the terrible thing in the land of always winter that Bloodraven shows Bran in book one in his dream of falling that is coming for man is in the shadow, but right now it is the force of winter that is out of control.

That comment had to do with wights, not the show.

Ahhh but see this is the problem I have here. The information we have regarding the Others is based on people who are prejudiced against them. The information we have about the dragons is primarily Targ accounts?

In LoTR, for example, we knew Sauron is the evil one, and in HP we knew Lord V. is the evil one. Most importantly, we are constantly reminded of how evil and how much of a role these two play in the nefarious activities of their respective realms.

The Others....are only touched on sporadically and briefly. If they are, as you seem to believe, the one pure evil element of the story, I find it rather peculiar that we know very little of what their motivations are and what they are actually doing. The lack of information raises questions, and I am not entirely certain that they are purely destructive. As several people have pointed out, evil is a matter of perspective. Since we do not have their perspective and why they are doing what they are doing, it is rather impossible to make specific claims.

I am not being naive to the real fact that they could in fact be the ultimate form of destruction in the novel, but I won't be surprised if we see something quite different as well. It is almost as if Martin is doing his best to only leave crumbs of information on them.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

I don't know if they're pure evil. I think they are death and destruction. I think that people do evil, but the Others are just death. Their nature is to destroy life. I believe they were created by the evil actions of humans far in the past. I don't think the Others have any complex motives, nor do I think there are factions of Others. I don't think they have "motivations" I think they are a force of magical nature.

They are a force of Magical Nature that will destroy humanity if they can. They are a meteor, a hurricane, a volcano, an earthquake, they are a plague. They are the horsemen of the Planetos Apocalypse. They are destruction and death and the cold.

Winter is Coming is a warning and is almost always used as a warning.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

""It was the cold," Gared said with iron certainty. "I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy. Everyone talks about snow forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy is the cold. It steals up on you quieter than Will, and at first you shiver and your teeth chatter and you stamp your feet and dream of mulled wine and nice hot fires. It burns, it does. Nothing burns like the cold. But only for a while.Then it gets inside you and starts to fill you up, and after a while you don't have the strength to fight it. It's easier just to sit down and go to sleep. They say you don't feel any pain toward the end. First you go weak and drowsy, and everything starts to fade, and then it's like sinking into a sea of warm milk, peaceful like."'

-Gared the Veteran Ranger

AGoT Prologue

"There's some enemies the fire will keep away." -Gared AGOT Prologue

[dbrandow]

What's your explanation for the wights though? Are they really just jovial peasant folk who only turn into murderous zombies to defend their lands from humanity?

It could be that the Others don't have an emotional attachment to the bodies of the dead. They would likely have a very different culture, and might not see this as a desecration since the person's 'spirit' isn't returning to the body. They might view a dead body the way we view a sword or a horse.

[Caspoi]

The Others might, theoretically, not be evil, they are after all a very unknown factor, but from all the occasions when characters have met them and from all the old tales about them they have only brought Death with them. During the Long Night they seemed to have nearly brought the end of humanity and they have attacked the Nights Watch on every possible occasion and they have attacked and harrassed the wildlings as they moved south.

The greatest argument for them to not being evil could refer to the fact that to the Children of the forest the First Men could look similarly like an inexorable force but this would not stop the Others from being completely for the destruction of humanity and completely alien from humans.

[Scorpion92]

I am willing to bet my house that Others will be backing up Jon Stark,new King of Winter, to reclaim Iron Throne. His aunt Daenerys Targaryen and her dragons will fight him. His Targaryen side is what will convince Dany and South (everything down the Neck) that he is true king of Westeros. Drogon will be mounted by Jon as REAL proof of his claims (come on,he has black scales,exact opposite of Ghost,AND red eyes,like Ghost, how more evident can you be GRRM?).

I just find it amusing that people can't see it. Ice side (not only White Walkers,but wildlings and northerners in general,even non-human races like giants and CotF) needs a leader for the final battle,the only candidates for that are Jon or Bran and given that Bran is a cripple and not experienced in battle he is out of equation,which leaves Jon as the only one.

Northerners in general are wary of southerners because they are so different from them by religion and just culture,and if they are convinced by new King of Winter,legitimized Stark heir that White Walkers and Children of the Forest are not enemies,and that enemies are those southerners and their Red God and their Azor Ahai Mother of Dragons,I can definitely see them uniting under Jon Stark's banner.

After Jon becomes King following the final battle just like Henry Tudor did after his battle (I don't believe Iron Throne will exist that time,King's Landing is due to some destruction either by Dany or Cersei),people will sing "a song of ice and fire" about him. I don't know if Dany will be his Queen,but there are too much foreshadowings in the books,but I am not going to argue that.

One thing for sure: White Walkers will help Jon to become King,as he is the prince that was promised. He was promised to EVERYONE,both fire and ice,both humans and non-humans,both the Old Gods and Red God. He might change his surname to combine both Stark and Targaryen names as new royal house.

[Caspoi]

An odd thing to bet your house on something that you do not have any proof of.

And someone please explain to me why my quoting does not work

[eyenon15]

This may be relevant -

"The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and thats become the template. Im not sure that its a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that."

---GRRM

[kimim]

Do they have a society? Do they have factions? Who are they? Did they always live in the north, or were they created by magic? Why did they decide to attack in the past? Why are they restive now? Do they reason things out? Are they a part of the game, or is someone who is a part of the game using them?

They're not northern dragons, in that the dragons can be controlled by humans. Direwolves are northern dragons.

GRRM doesn't want to use the Tolkien template, but the stories involving the Others resemble that template: Humans are too busy killing one another and playing power games to figure out that the real danger is from the north (Osha: Robb is going the wrong way). Tyrion makes fun of grumkins, etc., a sure sign that there is something to worry about. The Others are an apocalyptic threat in need of a savior figure to battle them--The Last Hero, AA, The Prince.

I'm just not sure how Martin is hoping to escape the paradigm of the world threatening big bad. I hope he does.

[Kyll.Ing.]

Indeed. We know next to nothing about the Others. The most frequently cited sources on their behaviour are frickin' nursery rhymes, which are based on six-thousand-year-old tales wrote down two thousand years after the fact. All this written by a guy who provided the quote above (thanks a lot, eyenon15!).

Yet still people look straight at the fantasy monster tropes and expect the Others to follow it to a T. That their only purpose is to be murderous and devastating, that they want nothing more than to kill humanity. Basically, that they exist only to give something for humans to fight against. An excuse for humanity to be threatened. A reason for characters to lead armies, for dragons to burn things, and that all the killing will be morally good, because come on those guys aren't human and their death is beneficial to the world, and...

Yeah, I call bovine excrements.

What do we know about the Others, then? Well, they're advanced enough to wear swords and armour. They communicate with another. They don't possess super strength or unnatural combat skills (the reason why Sam could slay Puddles so easily, was because Puddles' sword was stuch in Small Paul's corpse - which is a pretty basic mistake). That alone brings them pretty far from the fantasy monster tropes.

[Caspoi]

... They slay all humans in their path. Whether their Equipment is "advanced" or they possess superhuman capabilities is irrelevant to whether they are good or evil.

[LordStoneheart]

This may be relevant -

"The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and thats become the template. Im not sure that its a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that."

---GRRM

It's odd that he says that since it's exactly what he's written so far, no matter how many times he says the word grey. If he tries to turn the Others around as not evil, I honestly think it will be a bad direction for the story.

[SevasTra82]

We are 5 novels in, and we know next to nothing about The Others.

The only real thing we know about them is that; according to history; they attacked Westeros for some unknown reason and eventually defeated. We have no motives. No reasoning. No anything, really. Bits and pieces of information (like the nights queen) etc, but nothing much.

GRRM has stated many times that he does not believe in the "pure evil" or the "pure good" character. He seems to hate that fantasy cliche and does everything he can to avoid it. This is why I don't expect The Others to be some pure evil force that will attack for no reason....it's too trope-ish for GRRM.

I don't see The Others as some evil force. They have a purpose, a motive, and a direction. Why did they suddenly start to appear north of the wall again after being absent for 8,000 years? They have only killed what, 4 people in the entire book series thus far? So its not like they are going around slaughtering innocents.

There is more to them than we know or understand. We just simply don't know that purpose yet.

[Kyll.Ing.]

It's odd that he says that since it's exactly what he's written so far...

Thing is, what has he written so far? Everything we know about the Long Night is based on legends, passed down over eight-fricking-thousand years. We've had exactly two encounters "of the third kind", neither of which gave any background info on the Others. We haven't heard as much as a comma about their intents, we know nothing about their society (though it seems like they have armourers, since they carry swords and armour), nothing about their background story apart from, again, legends and nursery rhymes.

Sorry to brind real-world politics into this, but what we know about the Others can be compared to what kids in rural Yemen know about America. All the direct contact they ever have with Americans comes in the form of death from above, so naturally they assume Americans are all evil. All they know is from the perspective of the receiving end of drone strikes, mixed with tales and anecdotes told by their village elders - who often know nothing more either, they just repeat what they've heard, from somebody who repeats from somebody who...

So far, Martin has only written about accounts of Others. Only the skewed perceptions of a limited number of a non-representative group of people who encountered them in a stressful situation. Or worse, second- or third-hand tales about somebody else who met Others (Old Nan's tales about the Long Night are four-hundreth-hand, at best). That's not the uniform depiction of evil you seem to believe in. Martin hasn't committed to anything. Just listen to how in-universe people talk about Daenerys, the Red Wedding or Joffrey's death to see his perspective on what stories tend to spread, compared to what really is the case.

[ummester]

If the Others were the primary antagonist of this saga, they would be presented as a constant threat.

[desire]

I have always wondered with the Others fear always comes before them