San/San Question

[SerMixalot]

Ok, trying to figure out how to ask this question.

Try the straight forward

Why is this relationship so exciting to some?

Little background of where I am coming from. I am a guy and like most guys miss or misunderstand much of women like or find romantic and all. So what is the attraction here between the characters and between the readers and the relationship?

It seems from an outsider to romantic writing that the relationship smacks of cliche. the beautiful maiden princess attracted to the bad boy with the heart of gold. Is it that simple? GRRM is a master of turning genre stereotypes on their head, but the San San relationship SEEMS so cliched on its surface.

Sansa clearly fits the mold of the classic maiden victim, powerless against the evils against her, even updated making her inwardly tough and self reliant.

Sandor is the troubled brut stereotype, the vicious killer who hates hypocrisy, on the inside beats a heart of gold. A man drawn to the innocent beauty that he lost as a child.

Perhaps the breaking of the stereotype is that they simply never connect, that the princess saves herself and the tragic hero dies instead of finding redemption.

[FacelessGirl]

It was very exciting for many of us. :) :crying:

[The Fallen]

I've never felt that Sansa had any interest in the Hound. She's always crushed on the pretty boys like Joffrey and Loras.

[Lady Kraken]

I've never felt that Sansa had any interest in the Hound. She's always crushed on the pretty boys like Joffrey and Loras.

Then you should read more carefully. She imagines a kiss between her and the Hound that never actually happened, keeps his bloody cloak, and compares pretty much every man she meets to him.

[lilenadheas]

I'm sure many won't agree with me, but i do think it has something to do with this masochistic reflex many women have. i was horrified that so many people shipped San/San, as i thought it was an utterly degrading relationship for her and that it was being romanticized by ignoring certain unsavoury aspects/traits of Sandor. he contemplated raping a thirteen year old for christ's sake. however, i had to get off my high horse very bloody fast when reading SoS, and being turned on by the Littlefinger/Sansa dynamic :bang: .

I can't provide a source, but in a list of the ultimate romantic heroes, as voted for by the average reader, Heathcliff came in second or third. anyone who has read Wuthering Heights can tell you that he is evil. not just a bad boy. properly from-the--deepest-realm-of-hell evil. and yet there he is near the top of the list.

it would be very interesting to delve deeper into this unconscious reflex women have, (I'm sure some men do too, but they are called fangirls)

[Jolene Brown]

This is definitely a tough one. It's hard to explain why something clicks or doesn't click. I think it works well in part because he doesn't really ever try to ingratiate himself with her. His language and behavior continues to be harsh and somewhat (very?) inappropriate until and through their final scene together. It is clear that he is drawn to her, but he doesn't gentle himself, as often happens in "beauty and the beast" type relationships, where part of the attraction is that the beast shows a different face to the beauty than he does to the world. With Sansa, he is still pretty much a beast, just maybe a protective beast, almost like one of her brothers/sisters' direwolves? Sort of a Shaggydog? Oh, I like that!

Also, the "unkiss" is really intriguing. I can think of few other things like it. Why does she remember him as kissing her when he didn't? It's so odd. And it's interesting that he moves on to interaction with Arya, and so we see this interesting contrast between his behavior with Arya and Sansa. He is still, again, fairly beastlike with Arya, rude and drunk, and holding her hostage, but I also think we see, again, that he is somewhat protective within that context - he does save her life at the Twins, even though she's mad at him, and he seems to be trying, in his hamfisted way, to keep her going through her intense grief for Robb and Catelyn when all she wants to do is sleep. He even starts a conversation which is never finished, when after Arya has yelled at him again about how she wants to go back for her mother in case she's behind held hostage at the Freys, and he has turned her down, the next morning, he says "This thing about your mother," as if he might be considering trying to do something, but Arya cuts him off because she has seen Catelyn's corpse as Nymeria and so she knows that she is dead (somewhat ironically, since this is how Catelyn ends up in a position on land to be found and resurrected). I think it's interesting because I feel that through all of this, he is sort of caring for Sansa by proxy, but he doesn't just replace Sansa with Arya - he still treats her as the distinct person she is. It's just a very complex story, and it's one of the losses that come with the time limitations of the show, not to mention what I'm sure is some degree of squeamishness about the ages of the actors.

[SerMixalot]

But why would sansa be attracted to a manlike Sandor, he represents so little of what she was raised to love, honor, knighthood, gallantry. i just dont get it. is it that women dont really know what they want? that they get attracted to thing that they were taught were bad? perhaps it is the insight Sandor has into who her father really was (loving killing for instance)

[Jolene Brown]

Maybe in a subtle way she is fascinated by Sandor precisely because he represents so little of what she was raised to love. Sansa is 13, ready to start developing her own values, and god knows she has reason to be disillusioned by all the crap she believed in, which has brought her nothing but pain and sorrow. Maybe at some level she likes Sandor's contempt for honor, knighthood, and gallantry, because she too has learned the hard way that it's a bunch of bull.

[SerMixalot]

I'm sure many won't agree with me, but i do think it has something to do with this masochistic reflex many women have. i was horrified that so many people shipped San/San, as i thought it was an utterly degrading relationship for her and that it was being romanticized by ignoring certain unsavoury aspects/traits of Sandor. he contemplated raping a thirteen year old for christ's sake. however, i had to get off my high horse very bloody fast when reading SoS, and being turned on by the Littlefinger/Sansa dynamic :bang: . I can't provide a source, but in a list of the ultimate romantic heroes, as voted for by the average reader, Heathcliff came in second or third. anyone who has read Wuthering Heights can tell you that he is evil. not just a bad boy. properly from-the--deepest-realm-of-hell evil. and yet there he is near the top of the list. it would be very interesting to delve deeper into this unconscious reflex women have, (I'm sure some men do too, but they are called fangirls)

is sandor ever cruel or mean to sansa? I dont recall that. He was brutally honest with her, his tone vulgar, but he never struck her (or am i misremembering that). If you go by the theory that girls fall in love with men like their father, perhaps there is a clue when sandor describes killing as the greatest feeling in life, something even her father would have felt. that insight into her father would have been profound.

[lilenadheas]

Was she really sexually attracted to him though? we know she didn't find him physically attractive, she clearly likes pretty boys. there was definitely an attraction there, but i believe it was more a sympathy of ideals. They are similar in that they both become disillusioned as to the reality of the stories behind the songs. Sandor taught Sansa that everything she believed about chivalry was wrong through his conversations with her, while simultaneously becoming more and more like the knights he claims don't exist. it is a beautiful arc in and of itself without being sexualized

[Sand11751]

But why would sansa be attracted to a manlike Sandor, he represents so little of what she was raised to love, honor, knighthood, gallantry. i just dont get it. is it that women dont really know what they want? that they get attracted to thing that they were taught were bad? perhaps it is the insight Sandor has into who her father really was (loving killing for instance)

Her interaction with the knights of the KG, Joffrey and Sandor turn her idea of the perfect knight on its head. The valiant KG beats her on Joffrey the golden prince's orders. Sandor says cruel things to her, but there is more honesty and sensibility in his cruel phrases than she has ever found in Joffrey or his knights. In the end, truthfulness and the mild compassion Sandor displays have more meaning to Sansa and help her navigate a cruel court.

[SerMixalot]

hmmmm i guess i was confused about thinking people thought of it as a romantic relationship, but perhaps sandor represents a father figure correcting her world view, but that doesnt explain the explicit sexuality of hte relationship, the song, the unkiss, the cloak. so there clearly is a sexual aspect to it. is there something to the concept of a young woman attracted to that level of brutality and strength? protection, empowerment, rebellion

[Lady Kraken]

But why would sansa be attracted to a manlike Sandor, he represents so little of what she was raised to love, honor, knighthood, gallantry. i just dont get it. is it that women dont really know what they want? that they get attracted to thing that they were taught were bad? perhaps it is the insight Sandor has into who her father really was (loving killing for instance)

Sansa gets hit with reality hard in King's Landing. The "true knights" of the Kingsguard beat her and the handsome prince and the beautiful queen turn out to be monsters. The Hound loathes the things I put in bold because men like his brother are knights and he knows it's mostly bullshit. Knights are for killing, as he says, and he thinks it's ridiculous to romanticize them in the way young Sansa did. I think Sandor was once very naive and idealistic like Sansa was in AGoT, but Gregor put an end to that, just as Joffrey and Cersei put an end to Sansa's former, more innocent way of viewing the world.

So why would she potentially be attracted to him? Perhaps, because he was one of the few that was honest with her. Maybe because he protected her when few bothered to raise a finger to help her and proved a truer knight than many of the real knights in King's Landing. Maybe it's because he's never expressed interest in her claim or her political value and has never tried to use he as a pawn.

For the record, I do not "ship" these two. I think it's a fascinating, complex relationship and hope they meet again in the future, but I don't think it's romantic at all. Part of me thinks that Sandor might end up as a replacement for Lady as Sansa's protector and her sworn shield in the future. As far as it being cliche, I have enough faith in Martin as a writer that he'll do something with the connection established between them that is more interesting than the typical "beauty and the beast" or "good girl falls for bad boy." Or maybe they'll never meet again, and Sandor was there to point out some harsh realities that Sansa needed to see.

[lilenadheas]

is sandor ever cruel or mean to sansa? I dont recall that. He was brutally honest with her, his tone vulgar, but he never struck her (or am i misremembering that). If you go by the theory that girls fall in love with men like their father, perhaps there is a clue when sandor describes killing as the greatest feeling in life, something even her father would have felt. that insight into her father would have been profound.

Well there is the argument that verbal abuse constitutes abuse, but i dont want to go down that line because i believe it served a purpose, in that it was his warped way of trying to get her to wisen up. but it is valid.

I dont really understand how you're interpreting the whole "killing-feeling-profound-revelation" thing, do you mind expanding a bit?

[romantic]

It may be cliche but I find the thought of a man who could protect you against (let's face it) the brutality of other men without ever harming me (or other women or children), or trying to control you to be very attractive. Sandor, simply, reminds me of my tough-as-nails husband (though my husband rarely drinks and would never dream of swearing at me).

[SerMixalot]

Well there is the argument that verbal abuse constitutes abuse, but i dont want to go down that line because i believe it served a purpose, in that it was his warped way of trying to get her to wisen up. but it is valid. I dont really understand how you're interpreting the whole "killing-feeling-profound-revelation" thing, do you mind expanding a bit?

sandor tells sansa that killing is the greatest thing in life (or something along those lines) and says her father felt that way regardless of what he ever told her. That would be a completely new perception of her father (if she believed it) and thus profound for her. In the way of her changing her view of knights and gallantry. She believed what her father told her that it was his duty and a horrible duty at that. She now must consider that her father loved chopping heads off.

[SerMixalot]

Well there is the argument that verbal abuse constitutes abuse, but i dont want to go down that line because i believe it served a purpose, in that it was his warped way of trying to get her to wisen up. but it is valid. I dont really understand how you're interpreting the whole "killing-feeling-profound-revelation" thing, do you mind expanding a bit?

forgive me if I gave the impressio that verbal abuse was acceptable, that is not my belief. I dont recall him ever even being verbally abusive to sansa. He was brutally honest and at times vulgar but that is not abusive (in most cases)

[lilenadheas]

hmmmm i guess i was confused about thinking people thought of it as a romantic relationship, but perhaps sandor represents a father figure correcting her world view, but that doesnt explain the explicit sexuality of hte relationship, the song, the unkiss, the cloak. so there clearly is a sexual aspect to it. is there something to the concept of a young woman attracted to that level of brutality and strength? protection, empowerment, rebellion

absolutely. many women are attracted to power. Actually, many people are. In Sansa's case, she is extremely powerless in King's Landing, and cannot rebel against the Lannisters. That could provide a clue as to why she is drawn to Sandor. He becomes a saviour-figure in a way, especially after the King's Landing riot.

And yes, i would hazard a guess that most San/San shippers think of it as a quasi-romantic relationship at least.

[Cryler]

Well he did write and co-produce the Beauty and the Beast tv show that aired in the late 80's so I always thought it was a nod to that.

Edit storyline taken from http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092319/

Ron Koslow's updated version of the fairytale has a double focus: the relationship between Vincent,(a mythic, noble man-beast) and Catherine (an asst DA in New York); and a secret Utopian society of outcasts living in an underground sanctuary where Vincent is protected and loved. Through an emotional bond connecting Vincent to Catherine, he comes to be her protector as well as the man she loves. The series follows the developing relationship between them and nicely fleshes out the underground world of labyrinth tunnels, mystical waterfalls, and people who have come together to form a loving and nurturing family. In a twist from the original tale, this "beast" does not transform into society's idea of beauty after gaining the love of Catherine. Rather, Vincent's inner beauty is allowed to remain the focus of who he is and it is Catherine's former "shallow" self that is the ugliness transformed by their relationship.

[lilenadheas]

forgive me if I gave the impressio that verbal abuse was acceptable, that is not my belief. I dont recall him ever even being verbally abusive to sansa. He was brutally honest and at times vulgar but that is not abusive (in most cases)

I would say we probably just read the passages in a different light. You can read their exchanges in a myriad of ways, (another example of GRRM's genius), and i read his vulgarity and brutality as an intentional assault on her and her idealistic point of view. Even his vulgarity could be read as a cruelty he inflicts on her, as he knows how uncomfortable and distressed he makes her. But, it was done for her own good, which is why i didnt want to use it as an implacable fault of his.