Syrio Forel is Jaqen H'ghar?

[spudspotato]

I think the main evidence is A.) Why is the first sword of braavos taking teaching work in KL and B.) The first sword of braavos is probably an important enough political prisoner to be put in the black cells. It's easy to forget, however, that FM are not wizards. Jaqen couldn't have foreseen that he needed to be in the red keep as a teacher so he could get imprisoned and be sent to Harrenhall so he could get to Oldtown. As well, there's not a good reason he would assume that someone looking for a fencing instructor would be a good connection to recruit new assassins. He could have just as easily offered food to a boy in flea bottom.

Why Jaqen was in the black cells, we may never know. Why Biter was afraid of him, he probably showed his face changing (like the kindly man with the skull) to get the other prisoners off his back. I doubt Rorge or Biter would have publicly said they saw something like that, people would call them mad, or they could have been threatened into silence.

Besides, Syrio couldn't be a faceless man because he's a merling.

[Booknerd2]

Glad this thread popped up again, because I was thinking...

I know there has to be some veteran poster that has the complete list of all missing, presumed dead, in hiding, in disguise, might pop again, etc. characters in the series.

Some may come back and some have to be red herrings to throw us off the trail of the ones that really are appearing again or whatever the case may be.

You know, Syrio, Tyrek, the Hound, Benjen, others...I am even trying to compare some to others and think of which ones would be more likely or not.

I would love to see Syrio back too but another question here is, not all can come back, so who has the more likely odds of coming back to move along the story or for whatever reason Martin deems. It is at the point now that I can't keep track of all the people that have questionable disappearances and possible reappearances.

Even as a writing technique, if there was only one person missing and they were constantly mentioned, one would assume they are not dead or whatever and would return because an author is bringing them up in various parts of a series.

But Martin has us by the puppet strings and I love it. Now there are so many who can tell who is really dead, really coming back. really not coming back, or has a different identiy or what have you.

Makes the books more interesting.

As for Syrio, this may sound ridiculous, but in the tv show, metal drops, and we only see Arya. Syrio last had a wooden sword that was broken I believe. It may amount to nothing, but I hope he escaped. Everything is so detailed, who knows if it was on purpose effect wise, or just nothing.

[richard_ba]

what if syrio was taken into custody for further investigation?

[Booknerd2]

Also, when Meryn and them go there, were people still convinced Arya was taking dance lessons anymore?

Still cracks me up but...

Well, they killed anyone associated with Ned Stark and his family, even Septa Mordane, so why spare him after questioning?

I wondered that though and I am not sure how I feel about it.

Really, nobody was left in KL of that household except Sansa and poor Jeyne Poole, and of course, Arya was taken away by Yoren.

.

[A Bong of Ice and Fire]

As I recall, Ned gave Jacquen and the other prisoners to Yoren before Syrio had his fateful encounter with Ser Meryn. So Jacquen can't be Syrio, logically.

I think it's conceivable that Syrio escaped, though. Remember on the GoT episode you can clearly hear Syrio disarming Meryn, and the other guards had been disabled or killed.

I know that the TV show is not in any way canonical, but that episode WAS written by GRRM. So, hmmmm....

[enyellara]

Syrio and Jagen have two complete diffrent take on death. To Syrio death are the only God you in the end have to submit to and you are going to try to avoid that as long at possible. To Jagen and the faceless men death are a gift, somthing to worship and make sacrifice to.

[joluoto2]

Syrio is as dead as Ned.

[bemused]

A speculative synopsis...

A faceless man was in KL to gather information on the political scene , including what changes would come about because of the death of the King's Hand (in suspicious circumstances) and the appointment of a new one. He has a specified length of time to study the situation , but must move on to study the situation in Oldtown by a certain date ( The citadel is also due to undergo a change in leadership soon , which bears watching.. )

The new Hand (Ned) is not easy to get close to ,having his own household guard, etc. When it's discovered that he wants a fencing master for his daughter , the FM becomes the late Syrio Forel ( no, he wasn't immortal , and we have never met him in life ).. most likely by use of a glamour, or possibly some FM method that we haven't seen yet ... and gets himself recommended to Ned. This gives him access to the Red Keep on a regular basis... When the Hand falls out with the king and plans to leave , "Syrio" agrees to accompany him ,temporarily ( insert Ned's wounding , reinstatement and Robert's death where necessary ). The FM still has some time before he needs to be in Oldtown and it would be important to whomever he's gathering information for , to know what will happen between this powerful man..Warden of the North.. and KL ... all the more so, after Robert's death . ( Any leadership in Braavos probably knows that Ned could have claimed the Throne himself, at one time .)

When Trant and the Goldcloaks come to get Arya , "Syrio" realizes the Hand must have fallen , helps her escape , defeats and/or eludes Trant ( yes, it's possible) and follows her , giving her the occasional whispered prompt to keep her moving... A person can lose themselves in Flea Bottom ( see Barristan ). Both "Syrio" and Arya would be more conspicuous together, but he can keep an eye on her under some other disguise. ( At this point, it's unknown what will happen with Ned ).

When Ned is executed, and Yoren scoops Arya up.. the FM still has time to spare ...and I think here, he's begun to have some admiration , even liking , for Arya , and decides to continue to keep an eye on her and follow along as one of Yoren's nondescript recruits ... someone not too noticeable , and not likely to be missed. This is not strictly rogue behaviour because , any sympathies aside , at this point , Tyrion is still thought to be Cat's captive ( or may be ) , and Robb is on his way south . So, politically , these are developments worth checking out . Yoren is travelling north , and would reasonably be thought by our FM to have the intention of returning Arya to her family , since a young girl is of no use to the NW. This way, our FM can come into contact with Robb/Cat ( or at least their faction) himself and gather some intelligence on them. Two birds , one stone.

Also with Yoren, is one Jaqen H'gar , so dangerous he's kept caged with Rorge and Biter. He's a bad'un , but a charismatic bad'un. The FM sees that Arya begins to be drawn to him. When the group comes under attack at the holdfast , the FM may have been any of the recruits , and still survived.( I submit it may not be the first time he played dead so as not to be noticed .. See the stables in KL..), but I think he may also possibly have been one of the three men assigned to the towerhouse by Yoren.

Jaqen the bad'un, I think , does not survive the fire , based on a careful reading of that passage( which I've put forth in detail elsewhere ), probably managing to crawl out ,only to die of smoke inhalation and burns anyway.. (his clothing , or part of it at least, survived.)

The surviving men from the towerhouse ( Cutjack , Kurz and Tarber ) at first help Arya and the others . Kurz the poacher teaches them a few things, but dies before he can pass on very much helpful knowledge ...the other two leave Arya & co. , supposedly , so as not to encumber themselves with a bunch of kids. ...I don't know why so much detail is given to 3 characters who have played no part to this point, and vanish from the story right after , never to be heard of again... without anything of much importance happening between them and Arya's group. Surely making acorn paste wouldn't call for them to be written in in the first place... ?

Our FM would probably not have too much problem just getting away and making for Oldtown, changing appearance as necessary ... heaven knows there's no shortage of corpses to provide disguises. But if for some reason , he wants to help Arya ..and I suspect his reasons have gradually become more personal (even FM must have to wrestle with their own emotions / attachments from time to time ) .. then he's faced with some interesting choices. Would it be better to be a random survivor , who would be treated ruthlessly if caught, or to be the type of ruffian (see Rorge and Biter) that Amory Lorch would take into his service ? Yoren's young recruits are very likely to be captured. Who would it help if he was captured too , or killed in the process ? If he found Arya again, he could be of more help as someone in a position of relative power. She wouldn't trust just anyone .. but she might trust the late Jaqen H'gar.

This solution is compatible with Jaqen's suspicious lack of any effects from the fire, even the kind that could be hidden beneath a glamour, but would still be very painful in a tub of hot water (burns)... and it's compatible with Rorge's newly developed fear of him. Imagine if Rorge and Biter last saw Jaqen dead or dying before they joined Lorch, and then he suddenly presents himself to Lorch seemingly unscathed , and still in the same filthy clothes . ( And imagine if they hadn't done much to help him.. ) This might generate a bit of fear, even if they didn't see him change faces.

From here ,we can easily see how he goes from Jaqen to the Alchemist. There are a few ambiguities in his "repaying the Red God" story .. but nothing that can't be fairly easily explained.

When he leaves, though he cares about Arya , he can't desert the next stage of his mission (Oldtown)... He's leaving her with forces supposedly loyal to her brother , but leaves her the coin as an escape , if things don't work out ... or in case she really does feel a calling to become a FM/W in future...Then,I think he goes straight to Oldtown.

I don't think the Kindly Man has been told about Arya before she arrives , but he does recognize when she is and isn't lying. He's telling the truth when he says he knows no one by the name of Jaqen H'gar.( just my take on it).

Until recently , I could see no solution for the question of how the FM would take on Syrio's appearance, if it was a glamour..and yet, I didn't think there would have been time for him to hear of Ned's search for a fencing master and get to KL in timely fashion... At the same time ,that our FM should have come into the story as Jaqen , captive in the Black Cells, was also unsatisfactory (IMO) because of the unlikelihood of his surviving the fire.. and I assume he should have been able to elude the Goldcloaks , or have been able to bribe his way out, considering their rampant corruption.( As reported by Stannis).

Then I came across a thread positing that Tobho Mott was himself a FM or some kind of agent of the House of Black and White , because of the doors to his establishment , and his personal description... Here's his shop..

The man they wanted was all the way at the top of the hill, in a huge house of timber and plaster whose upper stories loomed over the narrow street. The double doors showed a hunting scene carved in ebony and weirwood. A pair of stone knights stood sentry at the entrance, armored in fanciful suits of polished red steel that transformed them into griffin and unicorn.

( The red steel suits might be interesting in another context , but perhaps not here since it is an amourer's shop , so I'm leaving them aside for now. There may be something in the size of the house , too.)

And here's the man ..

He wore a black velvet coat with hammers embroidered on the sleeves in silver thread, Around his neck was a heavy silver chain and a sapphire as large as a pigeon’s egg.

The problem I had with Syrio potentially being under a glamour was, what if all glamours require something belonging to the person being represented (a la Mel's glamours).. then how would it be accomplished ?... Tobho once plied his trade in the Free Cities... Who made Syrio's weapons when he was First Sword , or before ?... If it was Tobho, would exact replicas of those weapons suffice to help create a glamour ? It's an interesting question.

Side issues..It's also interesting how the show kept the question of Syrio's death open and how , in a thread about the App, the App is quoted as saying Jaqen recognized Arya immediately... I'd never take the App as gospel on questions GRRM may be leaving open in the books. Like the wiki, it must be subject to change depending on how the story develops ..( I think it was Apple Martini who pointed out recently on another thread that the wording in the App often employs "sleight of speech" ;) and I agree . It's the kind of coy wordplay GRRM frequently uses himself.)

For me, it keeps the 3 characters ( S , J and A) connected one to the other, without really saying how. Jaqen could not recognize Arya immediately ,if he had been in the Black Cells ( perhaps even before Ned got to KL) ..yet it would be ridiculously counter productive for Syrio to disguise himself as a guy in the Black cells , or chained up in a cage , if he was to help Arya or even himself... Jaqen did know who she was in Harrenhall , but it always seemed unlikely to me, that he heard her cry of "Winterfell" over the general sounds of battle . Hot Pie did, but he was closer to her .. and was not surrounded by fire and screaming men and horses, on top of the general noise.

ETA: The fire, for those interested.. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81177-syrio-the-phoenix/?hl=%2Bsyrio+%2Bphoenix

[Kuma]

Wrong because Jaqen H'ghar with rorge and biter was given to nights wach by order of Ned Stark when he still was a hand. Syrio died when those 3 was already in Yorens cage.

[Buzzard16]

I don't see why so many are opposed to this theory. GRRM has never said definitively that Syrio is dead. He's danced around the issue. If he's dead, he's dead. Just say it. On the other hand, if Syrio is Jaqen, then Syrio was simply a character he played, not a real sword of Bravvos. He would always have been a Faceless man. Playing a part to get close to someone, Arya, Ned. Much like Ayra has been doing in her POV's (Blind Girl, Cat and Mercy).

So any actions like "The first sword of Braavos does not run." DO not apply. And is it so hard to believe after killing or nearly killing 5 guards with a wooden sword that he could not escape 1 man. Or pick up a fallen sword to fight Trent long enough to escape. Or change his face in front of Trent, scaring the shit out of him enough to have him lie to Cerci for fear of return to kill him at will.

Yet, to me, the strongest evidence that Syrio could be Jaqen is the story he told Arya only a page earlier about how he became the first sword. Not as an actual truth, but as foreshadowing of a faceless man.

"And it was plainly a tomcat, yet the Sealord said "her" and that is what the others saw. Are you hearing?"

"Just so. Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then come the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth."