Kevan Lannister Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I saw a theory suggesting that Syrio Forel was imprisoned and as such changed his face and became Jaqen? Is there any truth to this theory, or is this just wild speculation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I guess there is nothing that can explicitly prove or disprove it. But for me, I don't think that Merryn Trant is the kind of guy who would take prisoners even if Syrio yielded, and Syrio is not the kind of guy who would yield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 It is the wildest of wild speculation. It is more likely that Varys is a merling.Errant Bard put together a reference list of threads on this topic, but in short, it is not plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Spades Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Wild speculation. It does not fit with the timeline, and makes no sense anyway.I guess some people love Syrio so much they are just willing to believe anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Lannister Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I've always thought it was a pretty dumb notion which cheapens Syrio's epic last stand and the fundamentals of his character, but eh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I've always thought it was a pretty dumb notion which cheapens Syrio's epic last stand and the fundamentals of his character, but eh...Exactly, Syrio's last stand is the reason why I love him, to find out that not only did he survive but that he had an ability that allowed him to easily escape would ruin one of my most loved characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Lannister Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Yeah, not even touching on the fact that he and Jaqen were both "mentors" to Arya in very different ways. Syrio was a far more positive influence, helping her to find her feet with her passion (swordplay) and put her feelings into check. Conversely, Jaqen is a ruthless serial killer who offers to murder three random people on her whim, and then encourages her to throw in with them, too... They're both cool characters, but them being one and the same would be really stupid imo. They work on two different wavelengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevan Lannister Posted June 10, 2012 Author Share Posted June 10, 2012 Yeah, not even touching on the fact that he and Jaqen were both "mentors" to Arya in very different ways. Syrio was a far more positive influence, helping her to find her feet with her passion (swordplay) and put her feelings into check. Conversely, Jaqen is a ruthless serial killer who offers to murder three random people on her whim, and then encourages her to throw in with them, too...They're both cool characters, but them being one and the same would be really stupid imo. They work on two different wavelengths.When you put it like this, I really hope it's not true. The personalities are way too different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howling Mad Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 IIRC even GRRM has spoken out against this theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycho Nestoris Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Wild speculation. It does not fit with the timeline, and makes no sense anyway.I guess some people love Syrio so much they are just willing to believe anything...This. I really, really love Syrio and still hope against all odds, sense, and good storylines that he is alive...I know GRRM has all but said he's dead for sure, but I'll speculate wildly until it's confirmed! I don't think he's one of the faceless men, though - not his style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artos Stark Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I never really believed the theory and not bought the 'syrio is alive' nonsense. He made a great stand to save Arya but was cut down in single combat by Trant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artos Stark Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 This. I really, really love Syrio and still hope against all odds, sense, and good storylines that he is alive...I know GRRM has all but said he's dead for sure, but I'll speculate wildly until it's confirmed! I don't think he's one of the faceless men, though - not his style.Ism't GRRM saying so, confirmation enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Spades Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 http://www.westeros..../Is_Syrio_dead/http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1372/GRRM says he doesn't understand why people think Syrio can be alive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Reyne Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Possible but not plausible. It just doesn't really fit in the story. Having a FM insinuate himself by pretending to be a sword master (remember Syrio was supposed to be the First Blade of Braavos) seems odd and a little too conspicuous. What would the end game be? He didn't kill anyone instead he taught Arya the sword. It just does not make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimwolfe Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 the main flaw is why would a FM waste his time teaching a young girl to use a sword braavosi style, and how would ned pay for a FM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monk Meth- Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 could be.. but i doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I see there are 2 threads about this. Hmmm. I think I'll repeat my post on the other one here..but first ,to those who say GRRM has all but said he's dead...GRRM does like to be coy with a lot of the questions he's asked , and if Syrio is a FM, then he's a replica, and the real Syrio was already dead before the one we meet took on his persona.Here's how I see it..It would be reasonable to assume that KL would be a prime location for an FM intelligence agent to be in place, at least observing the situation ( The great debt, the sudden death of the hand and the need for a new one , possible knowledge of some connection and plotting between Varys and Illyrio ) So..I won't lay it out too fully since it would be so long, but ...How could Syrio become Jaqen1. An FM is in KL, under cover, gathering intel. When he learns Ned wants a sword master he presents himself as Syrio ( after maybe even reccommending himself to Ned or one of his men ) ... at first in order to find out more about Ned and how the KL situation might change with him as Hand . The FM knows he must be in Oldtown by some certain time ... for any number of reasons... ( at this juncture, I don't think the dragons have been hatched )2. When Ned quits over Robert's decision to have Dany killed , Syrio agrees to accompany Ned & family to WF, on a temporary basis ( still having some time before he has to be in Oldtown for his next assignment ) , to see what Ned and the North will do next.. He's developed a liking for Arya in the meantime ( In spite of his calling , he is human .)3. He doesn't die , is not arrested , but escapes after besting Trant , probably reverting to his original appearance as soon as he's out the door ( which he may have been doing all along , between lessons ) During Ned's imprisonment , he can have been keeping an eye on Arya, not revealing himself as Syrio, to her to help maintain her cover( If Barristan can do this a FM surely could ). He could easily have seen Yoren rescue Arya., but..4. Since Ned is dead ,and since he has time to spare ,and since he likes Arya, he decides to follow along, "escort" her for as long as he can, just to be sure she'll be OK. He becomes one of Yoren's random recruits . (We know their backgrounds are not checked too closely . ..and except for the 3 in the cage, they're easily accessible.)5. He observes Arya's interaction with Jaqen, and that, apart from Gendry and the boys and Yoren, she otherwise keeps pretty much to herself.6. Jaqen does not survive the fire. Rorge may help Biter escape but I don't think they'd bother to help Jaqen, who's not really their associate. ( Thanks to elena targaryen digging up official background on R&B , my previous suspicion in this regard is even stronger. It also explains why Rorge fears Jaquen in Harrenhall , when he didn't previously )..so he takes up the Jaqen persona which allows him to escape the fate of the other recruits , and who better to try to trace Arya and ascertain whether she survived or was taken captive , than one of Lorch's men. .. If he should find her, she might be disposed to trust him more than a complete stranger.7. R&B's fear stems from the fact that they left him for certain death, yet here he is ,unscathedwithout so much as singed hair.There was perhaps less than a minute , and probably not more, between the time Arya threw the axe and the collapse of the barn. The prisoners were not just manacled, but manacled to the floor of the cart.... ( I can post a more lengthy analysis of the fire, if you like )8. When he goes to Arya to offer the lives, the kiss on the hair seeems so tender , almost parental , maybe too much so to suggest just any old FM, but not too much for Syrio.9.During the Weasel soup scene, Jaqen displays some pretty formidable swordplay , in line with the skills Syrio would have needed.10. He goes beyond just fulfilling the debt , to continue to teach her, and to offer to take her with him. ( surely not common for an FM ? ) he says "If you would find me again " as opposed to just "if you would learn " , implying more than your standard recruitment.11. He gives her the coin , which may be his only route to Braavos before Oldtown ( if, in fact, time would have allowed his return ) .He leaves Harrenhall and enters Oldtown with his "own" or "fallback" appearance . We don't know his original appearance or persona in KL..( I just wonder if Harwin ever saw the man who recommended Syrio ?)How do other characters support this scenario 1. Would Meryn Trant ,and any other survivors of the melee with Syrio lie ? Oh, I think so.. but did he ? Very likely , since Cersei says they had Arya , but , "the wretched dancing master interfered ". Dancing master. No mention that he was actually a sword master and put up a fight, and was killed or arrested.( Not info Cersei was likely to hold back, since being thwarted by a dancing master makesher look bad too.)2. Yoren probably collected the 3 men from the black cells before Ned's arrest , since the old gaoler tells Jaime the papers were in order. Probably nothing with Ned's signature would he honoured after his arrest. Though Yoren had them secured , they were visible in the cage...not too easy to pick locks , dispose of a body and lock oneself back in.3 . Rorge's fear.4. When the Kindly Man says "I know no one by that name " , in regard to Jaqen H'gar ,he may be being honest , not just secretive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolivar Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Syrio being Jaqen seems a bit obvious, but I do believe at the very least that Syrio is still alive.All throughout the series we are given examples of how skilled fighters with little armor consistently best more brutish foes clad in plate. It happens with Bronn and Ser Vargis for Tyrion's trial, Strong Belwas and Meereen's champion during Dany's conquest, and Oberyn Martell against The Mountain during Tyrion's second trial. This is compounded by how formidable Essos' best warriors are portrayed in the contemporary world of ASoIaF, whereas Westeros' society overall falling into decay, with the Kingsguard in particular being repetitively called a joke of its former self. Arys Oakheart makes it past Dornish archers and spearmen with relative ease, but Areo Hotah bests him literally effortlessly. Syrio himself took down four Lannister guardsmen with an inhuman speed, whereas Meryn Trant, frequently regarded as one of the less notable Kingsguard, was never described at having any such extraordinary ability. It becomes increasingly difficult to rationalize how Trant could best Syrio, or a contemporary Kingsguard could top a First Sword of Braavos, especially when you look at the armor discrepancy between the two at the time. But the biggest give-away is: when has Martin ever shied away from killing a character on-screen? Off the top of my head, all of the off-screen killings turn out to be false in the novels.It makes sense for a FM, or a Braavosi envoy, to be both in King's Landing and so close to a Hand of the King. ASoIaF is oozing with instances of Essos trying to meddle and manipulate Westerosi politics. Asshai has Quaithe influencing Dany, Melisandre next to Stannis, and Euron crowns himself immediately after returning from there. Illyrio is backing not one, but two Targaryens while Varys has all of the players in reality as his pawns. Littlefinger is Braavosi. The Iron Bank is ready to crown Stannis. Volantis is supplementing and aiding the Golden Company, and according to some on this forum, is about to openly invade Westeros themselves. We say Westeros is based on medieval Europe, but Essos is more like colonial/imperialist-era Europe, carving up the rest of the world and scheming against one another to do so, following the collapse of the dominant empire (valyria/rome). Syrio more than likely had an alterior motive to be in King's Landing, as Braavos has meddled in Westerosi affairs before him, and even subjugates other parts of Essos with its anti-slavery treaty it imposed on them. Him being Jaqen is plausible, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Wild speculation mixed with denial over Syrio being goddamn dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomiller Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 I've always thought it was a pretty dumb notion which cheapens Syrio's epic last stand and the fundamentals of his character, but eh...ThisJust because something can't be explicitly ruled out doesn't mean it's valid or makes sense and this theory is one such example. Or to put another way in a favorite quote of mine "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.